Dan III Posted April 7, 2006 Posted April 7, 2006 The way I understand it is this way: If RW were to sell the team to new owners, under the new CBA, the new owners would not qualify for revenue sharing. That would be a death blow to the Bills in Buffalo. If RW leaves the team to a family member(s) after he dies, they will have to pay a huge inheritance tax whether or not they sell the team. No revenue sharing for the new owners in this situation as well. Also a death blow. In the current situation, selling the naming rights to the stadium wouldn't help at all. Building a new $600 million+ stadium wouldn't help at all. The Bills are almost maxed out as far as ticket prices/attendance goes. More suites. luxury boxes, higer priced seats wouldn't sell. RW is not losing money now but the Bills can't compete with the high revenue teams for free agents. RW can't throw multi-million dollar signing bonus money around like nickels. Add it all up and you get "perfect storm" conditions for the Bills leaving town after RW dies. If he were 68, no big deal, but he is 88. Blame Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones for the current situation. If the new breed of NFL owners had their way, every stadium would be 80,000 seats consisting of nothing but luxury boxes & suites filled by people in suits. 656020[/snapback] Agree totally, with one addition: each of those stadia (stadii?) would be in a top-20 market. "And the money kept rolling in from every side...." 656032[/snapback] Exactly.
Stussy109 Posted April 7, 2006 Posted April 7, 2006 If they just allowed scalpers to buy as many tickets to any game they wanted, each game would be sold out.
jad1 Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 If they just allowed scalpers to buy as many tickets to any game they wanted, each game would be sold out. 656049[/snapback] Selling out the stadium isn't the problem. Buffalo can sell out the stadium the next ten years and still be screwed. The only way that the Bills can compete is if they can sell luxury suites, naming rights, and PSLs at NYC or DC rates. True fan loyalty and support plays no part in the new CBA. That's why the deal sucks. That's why Ralph is right to call out this lousy deal every chance he gets.
jad1 Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 Then those are the parameters you have to work with. if this is the way the system is, then you have to be the football equivalent of the Cleveland Indians or Oakland A's rather than the Royals or Pirates. 655721[/snapback] What do you think the Bills are doing right now? The Indians and A's don't hire expensive big-name managers and coaches, and they don't sign big-name free agents. The difference between them and the Pirates and Royals is that they're better at scouting and player development. It's interesting that you would bring this up, since you've done nothing but B word and moan that the Bills haven't spent wads of money on Parcells junior or blown the bank on a FA guard.
Chalkie Gerzowski Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 Buffalo does not have the economy to be able to support a team where tickets are going to cost $50 for the cheapest seats. In case you haven't noticed, they seem to be losing more companies then they are bringing in. People were complaining about the couple buck increase in tickets they annouce after last season, now you believe they will support the team paying an extra 10-12 a ticket? 655848[/snapback] Green Bay has an average ticket price of 54 dollars. Buffalo has the lowest at 37 dollars. Green Bay must have a lot of high techcheesenology going on. People in Buffalo can afford 50 dollar average seats for a NFL game. Don't confuse whining with cheap as dirt, couldn't s*** out a nickel to save their lives type people.
drhockey Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 Green Bay has an average ticket price of 54 dollars. Buffalo has the lowest at 37 dollars. Green Bay must have a lot of high techcheesenology going on. People in Buffalo can afford 50 dollar average seats for a NFL game. Don't confuse whining with cheap as dirt, couldn't s*** out a nickel to save their lives type people. 656210[/snapback] Exactly...come on, times are rough for everybody. If it required season ticket holders and/or Bills fans in general to cough up an extra 10-12 bucks per game to save the team, i don't think it would be a problem. If so, then the people that support this team are truly a sorry bunch. I live 3000 miles away and if it took me to fly back home every game to save the team i would. Don't tell me people don't have the money because i live in the most expensive area in the country and would glady pay up as much as needed to help the team. By the way, i don't make a ton of money, but enough to get by.
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 Exactly...come on, times are rough for everybody. If it required season ticket holders and/or Bills fans in general to cough up an extra 10-12 bucks per game to save the team, i don't think it would be a problem. If so, then the people that support this team are truly a sorry bunch. I live 3000 miles away and if it took me to fly back home every game to save the team i would. Don't tell me people don't have the money because i live in the most expensive area in the country and would glady pay up as much as needed to help the team. By the way, i don't make a ton of money, but enough to get by. 656260[/snapback] Exactly. You are talking about Buffalo here. What is the cost of a bucket of wings and a pizza there?... I know it is insanely low. Can't they make up the difference?
PromoTheRobot Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 indeed. they can't help the hand they were dealt geographically, but don't tell me it couldn't work with increased pull in Rachacha and T.O. I mean, Green Bay, Cleveland and Jacksonville aren't exactly hotbeds of growth, either, but you don't hear their owners out griping in the media now that the plan is done, do you? 655709[/snapback] And New Orleans??? That is a city that will be wiped off the map after the next hurricane. It galls me that the Bills are looked upon as relocation candidates while the NFL goes out of it's way to prop up the Saints! PTR
JDG Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 And New Orleans??? That is a city that will be wiped off the map after the next hurricane. It galls me that the Bills are looked upon as relocation candidates while the NFL goes out of it's way to prop up the Saints! PTR 656341[/snapback] In fairness, Promo - most articles in the National Media about a possible relocation to LA list both New Orleans and San Diego, as well as occasionally Oakland, as being ahead of the Bills. JDG
jad1 Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 Green Bay has an average ticket price of 54 dollars. Buffalo has the lowest at 37 dollars. Green Bay must have a lot of high techcheesenology going on. People in Buffalo can afford 50 dollar average seats for a NFL game. Don't confuse whining with cheap as dirt, couldn't s*** out a nickel to save their lives type people. 656210[/snapback] Who says that Green Bay is going to be able to survive the new CBA? Ticket prices are a small part of the issue. The Bills have had no trouble competing with their ticket pricing, with the revenue sharing that was put in place. Corporate money is the issue. Now that skybox, PSL, and naming right revenue is included in the salary cap, small markets are going to have to match that revenue in the larger markets to remain competitive. Ultimately, this deal doesn't mean that the Bills will have to move, but as the salary cap increases with each new deal Jones or Snyder makes, the Bills' payroll will fall farther below the cap. Signings like Spikes, Fletcher, Milloy, and Bledsoe will be a thing of the past, and they'll lose young guys like McGahee, Losman, and Evans when they play out their rookie contracts. In short, they'll be run a lot like the Sabres, Marlins, and A's are currently being run, which might not be a bad thing.
JDG Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 Who says that Green Bay is going to be able to survive the new CBA? Ticket prices are a small part of the issue. The Bills have had no trouble competing with their ticket pricing, with the revenue sharing that was put in place. Corporate money is the issue. Now that skybox, PSL, and naming right revenue is included in the salary cap, small markets are going to have to match that revenue in the larger markets to remain competitive. 656562[/snapback] Green Bay has the advantage of basically being able to tap into the Milwaukee metro area. Green Bay has become a Wisconsin institution, and Milwaukee is hugely Packers Country at this point. JDG
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 In short, they'll be run a lot like the Sabres, Marlins, and A's are currently being run, which might not be a bad thing. 656562[/snapback] Exactly... Probably one of your only parts I agree with. The bottom line is RW is leveraging the heart strings of the WNY fan base. If Buffalo can't compete so be it, move on... It has happened before and nearly a wimper has come from some. I wouldn't be happy but, why the heck would I comprimise my principles for a stinking football team? What excuse will it be this time?.. There are more important things to worry about than RW's bottom line... The guy turned a 25k investment into what and he is bitching about survival?... I guess he (and his family) forgets where they came from. This kinda corporate "highjacking" makes me sick. Hey Ralph... What do you gotta do? Feed your family?
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 Green Bay has the advantage of basically being able to tap into the Milwaukee metro area. Green Bay has become a Wisconsin institution, and Milwaukee is hugely Packers Country at this point. JDG 656655[/snapback] Then turn Buffalo into a WNY institution... Only Ralph has that control. Even change the name to the Upstate Bills.
finknottle Posted April 8, 2006 Posted April 8, 2006 There are more important things to worry about than RW's bottom line... The guy turned a 25k investment into what and he is bitching about survival?... I guess he (and his family) forgets where they came from. This kinda corporate "highjacking" makes me sick. Hey Ralph... What do you gotta do? Feed your family? 656683[/snapback] I am so sick of hearing people throw around the 25k number. Makes for a good one-liner, but it's not true. 25k was the franchise fee. Do you think he wrote a check and then never paid a dime more? Do you really think tickets paid for salary and operations during the early years? And what about the money he gave/loaned the Oakland Raiders to keep them afloat? Did that come out of the 25k too? RW did very well on this investment. But he did risk a lot of money and stuck with it over time, and it takes a small man and a lot of envy to begrudge him his success. If you think it's so easy, there are a lot of startup leagues in different sports looking to sell franchises for less than 50k. But guess what? That check won't be the last one you write.
jad1 Posted April 9, 2006 Posted April 9, 2006 Green Bay has the advantage of basically being able to tap into the Milwaukee metro area. Green Bay has become a Wisconsin institution, and Milwaukee is hugely Packers Country at this point. JDG 656655[/snapback] Green Bay could be a national treasure, that doesn't mean that they'll be able to command the same revenue that DC and NYC can in PSLs, luxury suites, and naming rights. The Milwaukee metro market era is much closer to the Buffalo market than it is to a big market area.
sven233 Posted April 9, 2006 Author Posted April 9, 2006 Just an idea......what if they lowered the price of suites a bit? I mean, wouldn't selling more suites at say $150,000 be better than selling maybe half the number of suites at $250,000? I am just throwing those numbers out there, but I think the concept is right. There might be a lot more businesses or groups out there that could afford them if they were cheaper. Sell twice the amount at a slightly lower price and there is some more revenue for the team. Also, the idea of a ticket price increase say $15 per seat would generate a lot more revenue. You don't ned to double ticket prices, but people won't be scared away for an extra $10 or $15, especially if that assures the Bills' stability in the area. I just think that there is a lot that they could do, but don't. There is no reason that this team can't remain here for MANY years to come with some creativity.
JDG Posted April 9, 2006 Posted April 9, 2006 Then turn Buffalo into a WNY institution... Only Ralph has that control. Even change the name to the Upstate Bills. 656686[/snapback] It would be nice, but somehow I don't see the Bills as ever having a season ticket waiting list that's a mile long like the Packers do. For whatever reason, it just hasn't happened. Moreover, there is more separating the Bills from the Packers than just "institution status"..... Green Bay could be a national treasure, that doesn't mean that they'll be able to command the same revenue that DC and NYC can in PSLs, luxury suites, and naming rights. The Milwaukee metro market era is much closer to the Buffalo market than it is to a big market area. 656874[/snapback] Milwaukee Metro Area: 1.7 million people Buffalo Metro Area: 1.2 million people 1990-2000 Population Growth Rate Milwaukee: +5.1% Buffalo: -1.6% Fortune 500 Companies: Milwaukee Metro Area: 8 (+1 in Green Bay, +1 in Madison) Buffalo Metro Area: ZERO (+1 in Rochester) O.k., Milwaukee may be closer in size to Buffalo than to Los Angeles, but in terms of growth, and particularly in terms of money, Buffalo lags well behind even Milwaukee. JDG
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 9, 2006 Posted April 9, 2006 It would be nice, but somehow I don't see the Bills as ever having a season ticket waiting list that's a mile long like the Packers do. For whatever reason, it just hasn't happened. Moreover, there is more separating the Bills from the Packers than just "institution status".....Milwaukee Metro Area: 1.7 million people Buffalo Metro Area: 1.2 million people 1990-2000 Population Growth Rate Milwaukee: +5.1% Buffalo: -1.6% Fortune 500 Companies: Milwaukee Metro Area: 8 (+1 in Green Bay, +1 in Madison) Buffalo Metro Area: ZERO (+1 in Rochester) O.k., Milwaukee may be closer in size to Buffalo than to Los Angeles, but in terms of growth, and particularly in terms of money, Buffalo lags well behind even Milwaukee. JDG 657011[/snapback] Thanks... Those are the stats that I was looking for.
granitestatebillsbackers Posted April 9, 2006 Posted April 9, 2006 This is my thinking as well. Ralph could close the gap VERY quickly with marquee hires at coach and the front office, not to mention big-time free agency and solid drafts. The team, if it was winning 12+ games a year, would garner quite a bit of national press and publicity and hence uni and merchandise sales. 655632[/snapback] Four ways the Bills can increase merchandise, uni and ticket sales: 1. Lower the prices to a level that decreases margin but increases units sold. More people in Bills unis = more buzz = perception that the team, while still on the wrong side of the W/L ledger, is on the way up. There are other franchises that have much fan love (merch sales) even in the face of losing seasons. 2. Tell the person who runs merch at the Bills online pro shop to get their head out of their *ss. I live in NH and have a toddler. There is one lame jumpsuit available for a kid his size (watch for Sean Quinn in the 2028 draft)--no shirts, no unis, no hats. There are many, many more Bills fans with kids that should be decked out in Bills gear--esp. in the Buffalo area. 3. Offer merch and unis at a discount for out-of-town fans. There are enormous Backers chapters--and other, like mine, that are growing rapidy. You want to get the colors out there (it's not going to happen on national TV this year)? Get fans into the colors--all over the US. 4. Fill the stadium by making it possible for fans in surrounding regions to get to the game by the busload or planeload--even more than now. I'm talking double or triple the number of people that show up now. Package deals, discounted bus tickets, etc.
Lori Posted April 9, 2006 Posted April 9, 2006 Four ways the Bills can increase merchandise, uni and ticket sales: 1. Lower the prices to a level that decreases margin but increases units sold. More people in Bills unis = more buzz = perception that the team, while still on the wrong side of the W/L ledger, is on the way up. There are other franchises that have much fan love (merch sales) even in the face of losing seasons. 2. Tell the person who runs merch at the Bills online pro shop to get their head out of their *ss. I live in NH and have a toddler. There is one lame jumpsuit available for a kid his size (watch for Sean Quinn in the 2028 draft)--no shirts, no unis, no hats. There are many, many more Bills fans with kids that should be decked out in Bills gear--esp. in the Buffalo area. 3. Offer merch and unis at a discount for out-of-town fans. There are enormous Backers chapters--and other, like mine, that are growing rapidy. You want to get the colors out there (it's not going to happen on national TV this year)? Get fans into the colors--all over the US. 4. Fill the stadium by making it possible for fans in surrounding regions to get to the game by the busload or planeload--even more than now. I'm talking double or triple the number of people that show up now. Package deals, discounted bus tickets, etc. 657039[/snapback] Regarding #s 1-3: I'm not sure the Bills could do that if they wanted to. Merchandise licensing/marketing rights are held by NFL Business Ventures (formerly NFL Properties), not the individual teams. From the NFL website: NFL Business Ventures, formerly known as NFL Properties, was established in 1963 by Commissioner Pete Rozelle and the clubs to fill a need for quality control and centralization in the use of NFL club trademarks on souvenir items. At that time, each club assigned NFLP the responsibility of licensing its trademarks (name, symbol, emblem and design) and the League trademarks, for use on merchandise, in publications and in connection with sales promotion ventures. While the licensing of products sold at retail historically was NFLP’s most important function, it now compromises only one component in a broad range of marketing activities. In addition to being recognized as the leader in sales of licensed sports products, NFLP has developed strategic alliances with a host of major corporations and also works closely to support each NFL club’s marketing objectives. These alliances provide benefits to the League, its clubs, network partners, corporate sponsors and, most importantly, NFL fans. NFLP also is responsible for the development and implementation of a number of grassroots marketing events from Punt, Pass and Kick, to Junior Player Development, to the NFL Experience. NFLP produces special TV programming with NFL television partners and extends the reach of the NFL to the off-season, providing NFL fans with additional NFL entertainment choices.
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