Trading Losman

[Mikie2times]

I’ll admit to being surprised about the JP trade rumors, if nothing else you just don't see many young 1st round QB's being shopped around. While I'm surprised I'm not upset, and since that seems to be the overwhelming response from the fan base I have to ask why?

 

The main school of thought that seems to be floating around is we don't know what we have yet in JP, and since his price was a 1st rounder at a vital position we must wait to find out. People have even used the Brett Farve analogy to describe a player who in a similar situation went onto to have amazing success.

 

The majority of the time this logic is sound and should be applied to younger QB's. But to simply follow this idea blindly without truly analyzing the individual circumstances would not be a sound strategy.

 

What we know from the media and player histories is that Kelly Holcomb has always been known as a team guy, and JP Losman had some character question marks coming out of Tulane. From this we can safely assume one thing; Kelly Holcomb is a team guy. With Losman we just didn't have enough information to substantiate the Tulane reports. Kelly had a great reputation with the Colts, Browns, and now Buffalo, and we've heard the same from so many players that we know it's legit.

 

As the nightmare from last season ended and the truth came out we learned from several different sources that the locker room heavily backed Holcomb as the starter. To me that is a critical peace of information because it explains the unorthodox decision Mularkey was forced to make when he benched JP. Logic does not say you bench your "QB of the future" in what was clearly a losing year.

 

Why the players backed Kelly is the most important question that needs to be asked, but unfortunately only the Bills management and players know the answers. We can speculate that it was because he offered the players the best chance at winning, or we can say it was because he had a history of strong player support. On the flip side maybe the reports from Tulane were true, and JP wasn't the best teammate.

 

If these latest reports about JP being traded are indeed true then that goes a long way in showing what happened last season. I just can't picture our entire staff evaluating JP, and then deciding to put him on the block in this stage of his career unless major red flags went off. If that's the case then why bother keeping him? For every Brett Farve the NFL has 1,000 Joey Harrington’s, Cade McNowns, Akili Smith's or Patrick Ramsey's. The odds of JP turning the corner are drastically smaller then him fading away. If the Bills have noticed something about him in terms of maturity then those odds get even smaller.

 

If the Bills decide to stick with JP then I will still be supportive of that decision, I guess the point is if they do decide to trade him we shouldn't sit here worrying we traded away our chance at greatness. All we really have to go on is one poor season and the evaluation of a GM that never brought us a playoff appearance.

If we can cut bait for a 2nd or 3rd rounder in this years talented draft class then we should do it, and fans shouldn't be panicking we made the wrong decision. If you like knowing a young QB is on the roster who could be the future of this team why can't Nall be that guy? He's put up better numbers then JP in the same amount of time, and also has an all-NFL Europe QB award to his credit in 2003. Sure he's a long shot at this point but isn't JP?

 

Trust the staff, building a foundation is boring and slow when it's done right but in the end it pays off.

[Arkady Renko]

Wow, exactly how I feel about this.

[Coach Tuesday]

I just can't picture our entire staff evaluating JP, and then deciding to put him on the block in this stage of his career unless major red flags went off.  If that's the case then why bother keeping him?

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If that's the case then why does Modrak still have a job? Who the fug was in charge of investigating this stuff? These things didn't suddenly surface - there were plenty of rumors about JP's character in college. Someone should've done their homework before we traded away a #1 for this guy.

[Risin]

If Marv trades JP now, he's an idiot.

 

If you agree with Marv in trading JP, you are not one.

 

As fans, we can afford to be wrong, because it doesn't directly affect our teams record.

 

On the other hand, if Marv does this, and it backfires, most Bills fans will be calling for his head. I have zero clue how JP will turn out, and I don't care what anybody thinks, Marv don't know for sure either.

 

There is a proven history of QB's looking like dirt early in their careers, only to win Super Bowls, and MVP's later. (Elway, Aikman, Young etc.) There is also evidence of QB's stinking early, and never improving. (Schuler, Leaf, Mirer, A. Smith, McNown, Couch etc.)

 

The truth is, more QB's go on to bomb, if they don't improve by year 3 or 4. That is my whole beef with trading JP now, it is too early to know anything for certain. We don't have enough evidence, and severing ties with a player of his physical talent, this early, is like playing Russian Roulette.

 

It could be a mistake, that sets the franchise back another couple of years. On the flip side, keeping him and finding out he doesn't have it, will only hurt short term. Once you know, you have Holcomb or Nall to go to.

[Mikie2times]

If that's the case then why does Modrak still have a job?  Who the fug was in charge of investigating this stuff?  These things didn't suddenly surface - there were plenty of rumors about JP's character in college.  Someone should've done their homework before we traded away a #1 for this guy.

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I agree, the maturity problem seemed well documented, if this is how it plays out perhaps it was just Teflon taking another reach.

 

From what I've witnessed since JP became a pro is if he does have a maturity problem I think it has a lot to do with his expectations. The combination of a lack of humbleness and the inability to back it up will not go along very well with NFL players, especially when it's coming from a QB. JP acted as if he should be held to the standard of a hall of fame QB, and openly discussed his goal of being the best ever. Both of these feelings would be positive with a player who had the humbleness to keep those thoughts inside but JP didn't. Veterans know how difficult the NFL is and I don't see them siding with a guy who has these outlooks when on the field he can't muster anything to back it up.

[Ramius]

Losman is, dare I say it, a victim of last year's coaching staff. He was named the starter without earning the job, which is something that even he was uncomfortable with it. As a result, I'm sure his teammates, who have all had to fight to earn their starting spot, did not fully buy in to a QB who was inserted into the mix. That certainly didn't help Losman last year as he tried to keep his starting role. It would also account for any rumoured "team doesn't like him" messages...

 

As to where things are now, it's kind of silly to think that the Bills would be ready to shuffle him off without even seeing him make one throw live, just based on tape. They just started the offseason conditioning program last week, so it seems far too early for the coaching staff to have assessed his current capabilities. Does that mean that Marv and company are not "testing the trade waters?" Absolutely not. You have a 3 way competition at QB (as Marv and Dick pretty much had said all along...Dick saying no one will be handed the starting job at any position, that it has to be earned, and Marv saying they'd be picking up a 2nd tier Free agent QB to give us 3 (non-NFL Europe) QB's), which means that there are 2 out of 3 outcomes that result in Losman not getting the starting job. Now this doesn't mean that Losman only has a 33% chance of getting the job, but if he can't beat out two other candidates in a practice scenario, then he's not going to cut it as a #1 QB for this offense during the season. If one of those two situations happen (Nall or Holcomb get the starting nod), you need to be ready for plan B. Plan B cannot (or at least shouldn't) include keeping Losman as a number 2 so you have to determine what your other options are. A trade is the best overall option because you get something for him. So where people are complaining that Levy won't get anything for Moulds because it's already clear the Bills will release Moulds, he's taking the opposite tack of looking for trade partners first in case he needs to dump Losman. This rumored "trade scenario" is not about Losman losing the team's confidence before he even steps out on the practice field, it's not about dumping a "TD guy," it's talking hypothetically with other teams to guage interest in anticipation of a possible outcome. This scenario would be completely consistent with everything we've heard from the coaching staff and front office, and I haven't seen them do anything that's inconsistent with what they've said they were going to do.

 

© 2006, dan gross inc.

[Bill from NYC]

If Marv trades JP now,  he's an idiot.

 

If you agree with Marv in trading JP,  you are not one.

 

As fans,  we can afford to be wrong,  because it doesn't directly affect our teams record.

 

On the other hand,  if Marv does this,  and it backfires,  most Bills fans will be calling for his head.  I have zero clue how JP will turn out,  and I don't care what anybody thinks,  Marv don't know for sure either.

 

There is a proven history of QB's looking like dirt early in their careers,  only to win Super Bowls,  and MVP's later.  (Elway,  Aikman,  Young etc.)  There is also evidence of QB's stinking early,  and never improving.  (Schuler,  Leaf,  Mirer,  A. Smith,  McNown,  Couch etc.)

 

The truth is,  more QB's go on to bomb,  if they don't improve by year 3 or 4.  That is my whole beef with trading JP now,  it is too early to know anything for certain.  We don't have enough evidence,  and severing ties with a player of his physical talent,  this early,  is like playing Russian Roulette.

 

It could be a mistake,  that sets the franchise back another couple of years.  On the flip side,  keeping him and finding out he doesn't have it,  will only hurt short term.  Once you know,  you have Holcomb or Nall to go to.

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You know, that imo was a great post until the last sentence, because I know so little about Nall, and watching Holcombe start for an entire season would probably wreck what little is left of my rather weak stomach.

[Max Fischer]

I agree, the maturity problem seemed well documented, if this is how it plays out  perhaps it was just Teflon taking another reach.

 

From what I've witnessed since JP became a pro is if he does have a maturity problem I think it has a lot to do with his expectations. The combination of a lack of humbleness and the inability to back it up will not go along very well with NFL players, especially when it's coming from a QB.  JP acted as if he should be held to the standard of a hall of fame QB, and openly discussed his goal of being the best ever. Both of these feelings would be positive with a player who had the humbleness to keep those thoughts inside but JP didn't. Veterans know how difficult the NFL is and I don't see them siding with a guy who has these outlooks when on the field he can't muster anything to back it up.

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Wrong. Again, there is scant evidence that JP has or had "maturity problems." This is just not true and for days I've asked over and over for some proof other than the "well documented" RUMORS.

 

From my point of view, a persons overwhelming desire to win in college and the pros in the face of steep odds is not a character flaw. JP led Tulane under very trying circumstances, overcame great odds and was a worthy number 1 draft pick in a stocked year. I thnk JP would welcome the "luxuries" he had in Tulane -- only a bad OLine instead of a horrific one -- "veterans" who acted like winners and a coaching staff that cared just as much for the team than themselves.

 

JP was the leader of that team and I won't believe these "rumors" unless someone can present "facts."

[Coach Tuesday]

JP was the leader of that team and I won't believe these "rumors" unless someone can present "facts."

647891[/snapback]

 

Well, here you go, per KFFL:

 

Bills | Losman Has Maturity Problems

Thu, 30 Mar 2006 06:21:23 -0800

 

Larry Feltzer, of the Buffalo News, reports QB JP Losman (Bills) is a chronic bed-wetter, has all of the Austin Powers movies on DVD, and giggles whenever he hears the word "duty", in any context.

[Max Fischer]

If that's the case then why does Modrak still have a job?  Who the fug was in charge of investigating this stuff?  These things didn't suddenly surface - there were plenty of rumors about JP's character in college.  Someone should've done their homework before we traded away a #1 for this guy.

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*Sigh* Again, where are these "plenty of rumors about JP's character in college? They exist in your mind.

 

All anyone who saw how JP conducted himself last year through the most trying times should clearly see the difference between a "character problem" and someone who wants to win.

 

Jeez Louise, just take some time to see how people actually regarded JP in college -- he was fiery leader on a very bad team. He wanted to win so bad I think it hurt.

 

It's amazing to me that people on this board can call JP both a "RJ clone" and a "cocky in your face guy." Hello?

 

The way I see it we're getting rid of bad character's and cancers that helped destroy, not help overcome the team's problems last year. Yes, that means you Moulds, later Sam, and my biggest disappointment, Lawyer Milloy. Leaders lead, not breed discontent.

[Coach Tuesday]

*Sigh* Again, where are these "plenty of rumors about JP's character in college?  They exist in your mind.

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Relax man - I'm positing a hypothetical, for one thing. Second, there WERE lots of rumors, and they were well-documented here and elsewhere. For example, there was an article where Mwelde Moore came out and said he'd never again play on the same team as Losman, because Losman was a horrible teammate and cared more about himself than winning, or something to that effect. I don't feel like digging it up for you, but I'm sure you can find it via Google.

[Max Fischer]

Well, here you go, per KFFL:

 

Bills | Losman Has Maturity Problems

Thu, 30 Mar 2006 06:21:23 -0800

 

Larry Feltzer, of the Buffalo News, reports QB JP Losman (Bills) is a chronic bed-wetter, has all of the Austin Powers movies on DVD, and giggles whenever he hears the word "duty", in any context.

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Hey, if you can't fight with facts just make it up, right?

[Risin]

You know, that imo was a great post until the last sentence, because I know so little about Nall, and watching Holcombe start for an entire season would probably wreck what little is left of my rather weak stomach.   

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I agree that Holcomb starting, wouldn't sit well with me either. I'm hoping between JP and Nall, we have a QB of the present and future.

[Max Fischer]

Relax man - I'm positing a hypothetical, for one thing.  Second, there WERE lots of rumors, and they were well-documented here and elsewhere.  For example, there was an article where Mwelde Moore came out and said he'd never again play on the same team as Losman, because Losman was a horrible teammate and cared more about himself than winning, or something to that effect.  I don't feel like digging it up for you, but I'm sure you can find it via Google.

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No, that's the point. They are not "well documented." It is only well documented that we have well informed fans who like to use rumors as fact to build their case.

 

I have no doubt that Moore didn't like JP. In fact, I'd be shocked if any person didn't have detractors especially on a bad team like Tulane; but that doesn't prove a thing; it only means that Moore could have been wrong and was in fact a problem. It's far easier to prove that Moulds, Milloy and Adams were the problems last year, hence their exits.

[Kelly the Dog]

If Marv trades JP now,  he's an idiot.

 

If you agree with Marv in trading JP,  you are not one.

 

 

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All I can say about that statement is that 18,338 of the 18,339 examples of Jeff Foxworthy's endless question of "You might be a redneck, if...?", turned out to be rednecks.

[Risin]

All I can say about that statement is that 18,338 of the 18,339 examples of Jeff Foxworthy's endless question of "You might be a redneck, if...?", turned out to be rednecks.

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No fan is an idiot.

 

We are all fanatical about our football team, and just like in life, everyone has different views of the same "picture."

 

If a fan wants Moulds cut, JP traded, or BJ day at the Ralph, it is his right to express that opinion, without being deemed an idiot, moron, or retard.

 

Marv isn't a fan, he doesn't have the luxury of making bad decisions. He is in a position to be judged, based on decisions he makes, that make our team better or worse.

 

For him to trade or release JP now, would be an extremely poor decision. Based on the fact, there is no way in hell he has concrete evidence JP will, or will not be a bust.

 

I expect a man of Marv's intelligence to realize this, if he doesn't, it will increase my skepticism of his ability ten-fold.

[Kelly the Dog]

No fan is an idiot.

 

We are all fanatical about our football team,  and just like in life,  everyone has different views of the same "picture."

 

If a fan wants Moulds cut,  JP traded,  or BJ day at the Ralph,  it is his right to express that opinion,  without being deemed an idiot,  moron,  or retard.

 

Marv isn't a fan,  he doesn't have the luxury of making bad decisions.  He is in a position to be judged,  based on decisions he makes,  that make our team better or worse.

 

For him to trade or release JP now,  would be an extremely poor decision.  Based on the fact,  there is no way in hell he has concrete evidence JP will,  or will not be a bust.

 

I expect a man of Marv's intelligence to realize this,  if he doesn't,  it will increase my skepticism of his ability ten-fold.

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Idiots are everywhere. You haven't noticed? Fans on a message board express their opinions and those opinions have a right to be judged. It doesn't make them right or wrong, but there is constant judging of knowledge and opinions here. That's what it is. Marv maybe doesn't have the luxury of making bad decisions but he will be judged, too, and the fans could either love or hate the move. Some will and some won't. There aren't many facts either when it comes to whether decisions were good or bad. I agree with you on your assessment of Marv, and I don't think he has any intention whatsoever of trading Losman now.

[SD Jarhead]

As someone who lurks regularly but posts infrequently, here's what I think may be happening hee.

 

First off, I don't think one season of playing behind an inept line is enough to evaluate JP. The guy was basically running for his life last year. Granted Holcomb was much better, but he was much more experienced also.

 

I think Marv may be letting these rumors float around because he knows Denver is interested in a QB and may be a dance partner in an attempt to trade down. He may be trying a smoke and mirrors trick to get Denver thinking we want a QB at #8.

 

We all know we need help in MANY areas. If we could even create the impression that we're looking at QB with the 8th pick it could cause teams who have one targeted to get nervous and trade above us thus getting one of the higher rated players who would already be off the board to fall to us.

 

While there's alot of talent in this draft, nobody is certain when the top three QB's will go. In that regard, the draft this year should be very interesting.

[Guest dog14787]

I’ll admit to being surprised about the JP trade rumors, if nothing else you just don't see many young 1st round QB's being shopped around.  While I'm surprised I'm not upset, and since that seems to be the overwhelming response from the fan base I have to ask why?

 

The main school of thought that seems to be floating around is we don't know what we have yet in JP, and since his price was a 1st rounder at a vital position we must wait to find out.  People have even used the Brett Farve analogy to describe a player who in a similar situation went onto to have amazing success.

 

The majority of the time this logic is sound and should be applied to younger QB's.  But to simply follow this idea blindly without truly analyzing the individual circumstances would not be a sound strategy.

 

What we know from the media and player histories is that Kelly Holcomb has always been known as a team guy, and JP Losman had some character question marks coming out of Tulane.  From this we can safely assume one thing; Kelly Holcomb is a team guy.  With Losman we just didn't have enough information to substantiate the Tulane reports.  Kelly had a great reputation with the Colts, Browns, and now Buffalo, and we've heard the same from so many players that we know it's legit.

 

As the nightmare from last season ended and the truth came out we learned from several different sources that the locker room heavily backed Holcomb as the starter.  To me that is a critical peace of information because it explains the unorthodox decision Mularkey was forced to make when he benched JP. Logic does not say you bench your "QB of the future" in what was clearly a losing year.

 

Why the players backed Kelly is the most important question that needs to be asked, but unfortunately only the Bills management and players know the answers. We can speculate that it was because he offered the players the best chance at winning, or we can say it was because he had a history of strong player support.  On the flip side maybe the reports from Tulane were true, and JP wasn't the best teammate.

 

If these latest reports about JP being traded are indeed true then that goes a long way in showing what happened last season.  I just can't picture our entire staff evaluating JP, and then deciding to put him on the block in this stage of his career unless major red flags went off.  If that's the case then why bother keeping him? For every Brett Farve the NFL has 1,000 Joey Harrington’s, Cade McNowns, Akili Smith's or Patrick Ramsey's.  The odds of JP turning the corner are drastically smaller then him fading away.  If the Bills have noticed something about him in terms of maturity then those odds get even smaller.

 

If the Bills decide to stick with JP then I will still be supportive of that decision, I guess the point is if they do decide to trade him we shouldn't sit here worrying we traded away our chance at greatness.  All we really have to go on is one poor season and the evaluation of a GM that never brought us a playoff appearance. 

If we can cut bait for a 2nd or 3rd rounder in this years talented draft class then we should do it, and fans shouldn't be panicking we made the wrong decision.  If you like knowing a young QB is on the roster who could be the future of this team why can't Nall be that guy? He's put up better numbers then JP in the same amount of time, and also has an all-NFL Europe QB award to his credit in 2003. Sure he's a long shot at this point but isn't JP?

 

Trust the staff, building a foundation is boring and slow when it's done right but in the end it pays off.

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Losman , Evans , and McGahee are the new young core of the Buffalo Bills. No , Losman will not be traded , and by the end of the season everyone will see why!!

[Ozymandius]

I just hope that when we trade JP, people don't get all up in arms when we receive like a 6th rounder for him. Remember, the #1 and other picks that we spent on him are SUNK COSTS. If he's a locker room cancer, then let's just get what we can for him.