ExiledInIllinois Posted April 3, 2006 Posted April 3, 2006 "If we couldn't laugh, we'd all go insane."
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted April 3, 2006 Posted April 3, 2006 I listened to bernsten on c-span discussing the cia led operation in tora bora... According to him bin laden was there, and for whatever reason calls for more us troops was denied....Thats fubar........I like to read the book, mainly for the battle stories, and gleefully take joy in the demise of those rat bastards, just wish their leader would have been ripped to shreds....... 650593[/snapback] WRT Bernstein...I think the simple fact that there was a "CIA field commander" in a military operation has more to do with any "failures" at Tora Bora than anything else. Either Bernstein's self-titled...and full of sh--. Or he was apparently in the chain of command...which is indicative of far larger problems than his simplistic complaint of "We didn't get the extra Rangers we asked for", and he's STILL full of sh--.
Ghost of BiB Posted April 3, 2006 Author Posted April 3, 2006 WRT Bernstein...I think the simple fact that there was a "CIA field commander" in a military operation has more to do with any "failures" at Tora Bora than anything else. Either Bernstein's self-titled...and full of sh--. Or he was apparently in the chain of command...which is indicative of far larger problems than his simplistic complaint of "We didn't get the extra Rangers we asked for", and he's STILL full of sh--. 650607[/snapback] None of it would be at issue if we had all just listened to Richard Clarke. (Sarcasm off)
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted April 3, 2006 Posted April 3, 2006 None of it would be at issue if we had all just listened to Richard Clarke. (Sarcasm off) 650613[/snapback] I was at the bookstore this weekend; he's got a new book out. Fiction. With the tag line "Sometimes you can tell more truth through fiction."
KRC Posted April 3, 2006 Posted April 3, 2006 Well if you answered the question, you couldn't B word about me making up your comments. 650601[/snapback] So, you admit you were just making sh-- up.
KRC Posted April 3, 2006 Posted April 3, 2006 Feel better now? 650587[/snapback] No. I still feel a void.
Scraps Posted April 3, 2006 Posted April 3, 2006 WRT Bernstein...I think the simple fact that there was a "CIA field commander" in a military operation has more to do with any "failures" at Tora Bora than anything else. Either Bernstein's self-titled...and full of sh--. Or he was apparently in the chain of command...which is indicative of far larger problems than his simplistic complaint of "We didn't get the extra Rangers we asked for", and he's STILL full of sh--. 650607[/snapback] Having read Bernsten's book "Jawbreaker : The Attack on Bin Laden and Al Qaeda: A Personal Account by the CIA's Key Field Commander" and Schroen's book "First In: An Insider's Account of How the CIA Spearheaded the War on Terror in Afghanistan", it is pretty clear that the CIA was days or weeks ahead of the military in many places. It would appear that they were willing to take greater chances. Bernsten describes a good working relationship with the military. He is also highly complimentary of GWB and Franks except in one respect. I would suspect that a large part of the decision to not use rangers in Tora Bora had to do with the fear within the CENTCOM and the government of losing public support for the war should some soldiers lose their lives either in action or due to an accident. I say this because it is a fear that is often repeated in almost any military operation these days, because he describes the possible loss of support to the Northern Alliance should a singl US Spec Ops soldier losees their life and because of the change in operating procedures the CIA placed on their operatives after Mike Spann was killed. As for a civilian being in charge of Tora Bora, well most of the operatives were ex-military and control was supposed to be turned over to a military officer and there were special forces soldiers there. I think a bigger issue was the way the Afghans would fight, returning to their families every night during Ramadan and having to retake the same ground every day, and the fact that the Afghans, the Pushtuns in particular, would gladly take our money but were just as glad to be bought off by Al Qaeda. Several key commanders were fight us just a few week earlier. How reliable were they?
Scraps Posted April 3, 2006 Posted April 3, 2006 So, you admit you were just making sh-- up. 650622[/snapback] No, just saying you couldn't B word if you actually answered the questions.
KRC Posted April 3, 2006 Posted April 3, 2006 No, just saying you couldn't B word if you actually answered the questions. 650649[/snapback] So, you can't B word if you don't make up comments for people? Sucks to be you.
ExiledInIllinois Posted April 3, 2006 Posted April 3, 2006 I am rubber, you are glue. Na na na na... And this coming from the people who preach that PPP discussions should be engaging.
Ghost of BiB Posted April 3, 2006 Author Posted April 3, 2006 I am rubber, you are glue. Na na na na... And this coming from the people who preach that PPP discussions should be engaging. 650664[/snapback] I engaged. Afghanistan = Somalia is pretty well apples = cement trucks, to me. And, the CIA was pretty adamant they had the program well in hand. The military accepted their supporting role, and operationally planned accordingly. When half of the middle east decided they were going to come up into Afghanistan through Pakistan to help out their buds, folks started going "oops". Especially the ones who had everything well in hand. Just another angle to the story.
Scraps Posted April 3, 2006 Posted April 3, 2006 I engaged. Afghanistan = Somalia is pretty well apples = cement trucks, to me. And, the CIA was pretty adamant they had the program well in hand. The military accepted their supporting role, and operationally planned accordingly. When half of the middle east decided they were going to come up into Afghanistan through Pakistan to help out their buds, folks started going "oops". Especially the ones who had everything well in hand. Just another angle to the story. 650675[/snapback] During the Afghan operation, I wondered about the stories of larger numbers of jihadists coming in from Pakistan. I didn't understand why these convoys weren't attacked to discourage people from joining the fight. Bernsten claimed that they knew about the people coming in and made a conscious decision to allow as many of them as possible to get in, get them to the front lines, cut them off from escape and kill them so the US wouldn't have to face them in the future.
Scraps Posted April 3, 2006 Posted April 3, 2006 So, you can't B word if you don't make up comments for people? Sucks to be you. 650652[/snapback] Actually Ken, your the one making ups comments. You won't answer because you know you'd be exposed as a fraud.
KRC Posted April 3, 2006 Posted April 3, 2006 Actually Ken, your the one making ups comments. You won't answer because you know you'd be exposed as a fraud. 650698[/snapback] You make up comments for both BiB and myself, then deny that you made up those comments thinking that people cannot actually read the thread? Yeah...OK...
Scraps Posted April 3, 2006 Posted April 3, 2006 You make up comments for both BiB and myself, then deny that you made up those comments thinking that people cannot actually read the thread? Yeah...OK... 650700[/snapback] These were your comments Ken that started this As far as Afghanistan, I imagine that the troops there are real pleased with the Dems saying that they are not doing a good enough job (oh, yeah, it is not their fault. It is Bush's fault since Bush is the one on the ground running the operations). "Yeah troops. You suck." I asked you questions to clarify these and you have been avoiding those questions ever since. I think its because you know full well that the Democrats have not criticized the troops and you don't want to admit you were wrong.
Ghost of BiB Posted April 3, 2006 Author Posted April 3, 2006 During the Afghan operation, I wondered about the stories of larger numbers of jihadists coming in from Pakistan. I didn't understand why these convoys weren't attacked to discourage people from joining the fight. Bernsten claimed that they knew about the people coming in and made a conscious decision to allow as many of them as possible to get in, get them to the front lines, cut them off from escape and kill them so the US wouldn't have to face them in the future. 650695[/snapback] See, here's another example of the double edged thingy. There's a lot of merit to that, and probably truth. But, one can also argue it as being a touch revisionist since no one seemed to have much of a plan for trans border activities (which is actually a lot more of where the AQ/Pushtu connections came in) at the time. So, the call goes out "I want 600 Rangers". CENTCOM comes back "everybody wants 600 Rangers". Also, CENTCOM doesn't own any forces BTW, JFCOM does, bit I digress... End result is a thread like this one that says little more than "Bush Bad".
GG Posted April 3, 2006 Posted April 3, 2006 I was at the bookstore this weekend; he's got a new book out. Fiction. With the tag line "Sometimes you can tell more truth through fiction." 650620[/snapback] Great, now you're going to get certain Catholics riled up.
KRC Posted April 3, 2006 Posted April 3, 2006 These were your comments Ken that started thisI asked you questions to clarify these and you have been avoiding those questions ever since. I think its because you know full well that the Democrats have not criticized the troops and you don't want to admit you were wrong. 650705[/snapback] You attributed comments to both BiB and myself that neither of us said nor implied. Why are you so scared to admit your mistake?
Scraps Posted April 3, 2006 Posted April 3, 2006 You attributed comments to both BiB and myself that neither of us said nor implied. Why are you so scared to admit your mistake? 650709[/snapback] Hypocrite thy name is Ken.
KRC Posted April 3, 2006 Posted April 3, 2006 Hypocrite thy name is Ken. 650718[/snapback] Really? Where in this thread did I falsely attribute comments to you? Hypocrite, thy name is Scraps.
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