Immigration

[KRC]

Will someone PLEASE explain to me again how the President is supposed to come riding to the rescue with the National Guard... 

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Don't let details get in the way of a good rant.

[KRC]

How many of you are willing to go to a counter protest? How many of you have written your senators? (I emailed Chuck and Billary today... why not do the same?)

 

Bitching on an internet forum is fun, but unless you speak up, you will not be heard.

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I regularly contact my representatives. They send a nice little form letter in response. For example, I sent Senator Santorum an e-mail detailing how pissed I was at the whole port fiasco and the people who opposed it. He sent a nice little form letter back stating that he agrees with me that the port deal should have been opposed.

[Chef Jim]

I regularly contact my representatives. They send a nice little form letter in response. For example, I sent Senator Santorum an e-mail detailing how pissed I was at the whole port fiasco and the people who opposed it. He sent a nice little form letter back stating that he agrees with me that the port deal should have been opposed. 

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And that my friends is politics in a nutsack....I mean shell.

[Bill from NYC]

And as usual, Krugman only talks about the heads side of the argument.  While average wages may go up by 8% if it weren't for Mexican immigration, he neglects the tails argument that total unemployment may rise to wipe out the benefits brought by higher wages to the low skilled jobs.

 

There's a living experiment of what happens when you implement wage controls, it's working perfectly well in France, Germany & GM.

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I respectfully disagree, because I am unable to see how unemployment would rise if 10 million or so illegal aliens were eliminated from the work force, and wages were to rise for American Citizens.

[GG]

I respectfully disagree, because I am unable to see how unemployment would rise if 10 million or so illegal aliens were eliminated from the work force, and wages were to rise for American Citizens.

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You would have to take a look at the residual effect of higher wages paid for low skilled work. This in turn will impact the disposable incomes and people will spend less, leading to a slowing of the economy.

 

As to the question before, in theory I don't believe in minimum wage. However, recognizing that some workers can be abused, a low minimum wage is a good proxy to prevent blatant abuse cases. IMHO, the US workforce has been pretty good in getting skills that will pay above minimum wage.

 

The real question that should be asked is not whether low skilled Mexicans are taking minimum wage jobs away from Americans, but why would Americans, blessed with the opportunities presented by this country, be in a position to have a job taken away from them by an uneducated, low-skilled migrant worker?

[cromagnum]

One home builder I know, had a good framing crew. They were replaced by a crew who were illegal aliens except the lead framer who had a visa. Reason , he was able to cut the labor cost in half. I have been on large sub divisions 200 or more houses being built, it would amaze you the number of illegals working. They are not just digging ditches, they are in every facet of building, except as office workers. Its just another way to screw over the american worker and its allowed.

[Chef Jim]

One home builder I know, had a good framing crew. They were replaced by a crew who  were illegal aliens except the lead framer who had a visa. Reason , he was able to cut the labor cost in half. I have been on large sub divisions 200 or more houses being built, it would amaze you the number of illegals working. They are not just digging ditches, they are in every facet of building, except as office workers. Its just another way to screw over the american worker and its allowed.

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No I'm not suprised and no it's not allowed......it's tolerated. But not for long.

[YellowLinesandArmadillos]

After seeing the news and papers out here and local video, I am sorely disappointed. The flag burning, flags turned upside down, the gang signs, kids skipping school. It would be one thing if they were supporting the U.S. and acting respectful, but they lost me on that one.

 

I still think there are lot of American Latinos undocumented that want to become part of this country, but like the crazy's in the environmental movement, these folks just lost my respect and screwed up everything they were trying to accomplish, might as well go ride wind surfers with John Kerry...dumbas#@$#$s.

[Chef Jim]

After seeing the news and papers out here and local video, I am sorely disappointed.  The flag burning, flags turned upside down, the gang signs, kids skipping school.  It would be one thing if they were supporting the U.S. and acting respectful, but they lost me on that one.

 

I still think there are lot of American Latinos undocumented that want to become part of this country, but like the crazy's in the environmental movement, these folks just lost my respect and screwed up everything they were trying to accomplish, might as well go ride wind surfers with John Kerry...dumbas#@$#$s.

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Well having just read your post I would consider the antics a rousing success!

[cromagnum]

After seeing the news and papers out here and local video, I am sorely disappointed.  The flag burning, flags turned upside down, the gang signs, kids skipping school.  It would be one thing if they were supporting the U.S. and acting respectful, but they lost me on that one.

 

I still think there are lot of American Latinos undocumented that want to become part of this country, but like the crazy's in the environmental movement, these folks just lost my respect and screwed up everything they were trying to accomplish, might as well go ride wind surfers with John Kerry...dumbas#@$#$s.

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The latinos I come to know are good people and work hard, I say half of em had the building trades skill aquired in mexico and south america and moved to america for better money. They tend to group up on apartments, ten people to a 2 bedroom unit. Less out of pocket expense and more money to wire back to support their families. Most say they want to go back after they make enough money Here to live comfortable when they return to the country. Meanwhile because of their illegal status employers take advantage and reduce the wages and the american construction worker either loses his job or finds his wages suppressed. All this bull talk about how americans dont want to do this type of work is a LIE.

[YellowLinesandArmadillos]

The latinos I come to know are good people and work hard, I say half of em had the building trades skill aquired in mexico and south america and moved to america for better money. They tend to group up on apartments,  ten people to a 2 bedroom unit. Less out of pocket expense and more  money to wire back to support their families. Most say they want to go back after they make enough money Here to live comfortable when they return to the country. Meanwhile because of their  illegal status employers take advantage and reduce the wages and the american construction worker either loses his job or finds his wages suppressed. All this bull talk about how americans dont want to do this type of work is a LIE.

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Yeh, I know that...to many other folks up in my neck of the woods working for Walmart making a lot less money.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

The latinos I come to know are good people and work hard, I say half of em had the building trades skill aquired in mexico and south america and moved to america for better money. They tend to group up on apartments,  ten people to a 2 bedroom unit. Less out of pocket expense and more  money to wire back to support their families. Most say they want to go back after they make enough money Here to live comfortable when they return to the country. Meanwhile because of their  illegal status employers take advantage and reduce the wages and the american construction worker either loses his job or finds his wages suppressed. All this bull talk about how americans dont want to do this type of work is a LIE.

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So you'd go to work in a meatpacking plant or picking grapes?

 

Yeah, didn't think so.

[VABills]

So you'd go to work in a meatpacking plant or picking grapes?

 

Yeah, didn't think so.

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Not sure about the grape picking, but in VA there is the big Smithfield plant in Suffolk. Smells like nothing you have ever smelled before. Families wait years to get the chance to gte hired there, because while the pay is relatively low, it is pretty much a job for like, good benefits, and good retirement......

 

Again, not sure how other areas are but trust me, they don't have to worry about hiring illegals there.

[cromagnum]

So you'd go to work in a meatpacking plant or picking grapes?

 

Yeah, didn't think so.

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I work in construction, The goverment fails to mention how illegals are being hired and taking jobs and lowering wages in the building trades. The issue of illegals has gone beyond picking fruit....Imagine how white collar workers would fail if boatloads of indians came over and allowed to compete for their jobs while being illegal and working for far less money and benefits.

[VABills]

I work in construction, The goverment fails to mention how illegals are being hired and taking jobs and lowering wages in the building trades. The issue of illegals has gone beyond picking fruit....Imagine how white collar workers would fail if boatloads of indians came over and allowed to compete for their jobs while being illegal and working for far less money and benefits.

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They already do. Except they do it "legally" by getting sponsered and get H1b visas. But trust me, they are here by the boat loads. Just not in Buffalo, they actually go places where there are jobs. They do not come here to be bitter that the government won't give them a job in the city of their choice so they don't have to move away from their high school drinking buddies.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

I work in construction, The goverment fails to mention how illegals are being hired and taking jobs and lowering wages in the building trades. The issue of illegals has gone beyond picking fruit....Imagine how white collar workers would fail if boatloads of indians came over and allowed to compete for their jobs while being illegal and working for far less money and benefits.

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Uh, they don't have to come here. The jobs go to them. I ought to know, I work in IT.

[GG]

One home builder I know, had a good framing crew. They were replaced by a crew who  were illegal aliens except the lead framer who had a visa. Reason , he was able to cut the labor cost in half. I have been on large sub divisions 200 or more houses being built, it would amaze you the number of illegals working. They are not just digging ditches, they are in every facet of building, except as office workers. Its just another way to screw over the american worker and its allowed.

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This is one example that illustrates the complexity of the problem. There will obviously be instances where Mexicans will compete for more than entry level jobs. But then you have to look at the overall picture (and that's why there's generally been an acceptance of immigrant labor) you will find greater benefits to the US.

 

On a macro level, do you believe that the rise of the housing market in the last 5 years has been a major catalyst for the economic expansion in the US? If the asnwer is yes, do you also believe that the housing market would be as frothy if the average cost of new construction was 20% greater?

 

As is the case on nearly every topic on this board, the real solution is far more complex than a 20 second soundbite you'll hear on TV or radio. Like it or not, the economic expansion got a big boost from cheap labor and cheap foreign capital.

 

The closed door protectionism that's in popular rage at this moment, is playing on nationalistic nostalgia of pining for an America that never was. This country was never insular and always lived off trade (goods & people).

 

What demarkates this debate from previous anti-immigrant movements is that the feeling that the Latinos have absolutely no intention to integrate into the US. The close proximity of the homelands relative to old world immigrants, certainly supports this view.

 

But that is a separate issue of whether US should have a sensible program in dealing with the influx of workers. Just like the grand war on drugs, you will not fix the supply if the demand persists. And given the history of this country, demand will persist, such that even if you put a 100' radioactive wall around the Mexican border, you'll see the backfill of workers from Africa and Asia sliding in on surfboards.

 

If the response to the above is, "There is no reason for US to be the receipient of cheap labor, and Mexico's troubles are not our concern," think again. With a country on the verge of sliding back into 3rd world status, while US continues to gain, you'll be seeding a volatile class mix that, in the history of mankind, has never ended smoothly. A weak nation state on our Southern border is a disaster in the making. Of course that will probably take decades to play out, so it's not within the 8 month time frame of the concerned politicians.

 

A sensible policy would involve some form of guest worker program for illegals. But more importantly, pressure needs to be put on Mexico & other LA countries to open up their markets and allow for greater development of the middle class. In the longr term, taht would remove the incentive to stow away in a Honda with 10 of your close friends to work for $2/hr in the US. If the concern about illegals is the tax & benefits drain on the municipalities, I certainly would not oppose sending Mexico an annual bill for the services the workers tally.

[VABills]

This is one example that illustrates the complexity of the problem.  There will obviously be instances where Mexicans will compete for more than entry level jobs.  But then you have to look at the overall picture (and that's why there's generally been an acceptance of immigrant labor) you will find greater benefits to the US. 

 

On a macro level, do you believe that the rise of the housing market in the last 5 years has been a major catalyst for the economic expansion in the US?  If the asnwer is yes, do you also believe that the housing market would be as frothy if the average cost of new construction was 20% greater?

 

As is the case on nearly every topic on this board, the real solution is far more complex than a 20 second soundbite you'll hear on TV or radio.  Like it or not, the economic expansion got a big boost from cheap labor and cheap foreign capital.

 

The closed door protectionism that's in popular rage at this moment, is playing on nationalistic nostalgia of pining for an America that never was.  This country was never insular and always lived off trade (goods & people).

 

What demarkates this debate from previous anti-immigrant movements is that the feeling that the Latinos have absolutely no intention to integrate into the US.  The close proximity of the homelands relative to old world immigrants, certainly supports this view. 

 

But that is a separate issue of whether US should have a sensible program in dealing with the influx of workers.  Just like the grand war on drugs, you will not fix the supply if the demand persists.  And given the history of this country, demand will persist, such that even if you put a 100' radioactive wall around the Mexican border, you'll see the backfill of workers from Africa and Asia sliding in on surfboards.

 

If the response to the above is, "There is no reason for US to be the receipient of cheap labor, and Mexico's troubles are not our concern," think again.  With a country on the verge of sliding back into 3rd world status, while US continues to gain, you'll be seeding a volatile class mix that, in the history of mankind, has never ended smoothly.  A weak nation state on our Southern border is a disaster in the making.  Of course that will probably take decades to play out, so it's not within the 8 month time frame of the concerned politicians.

 

A sensible policy would involve some form of guest worker program for illegals.  But more importantly, pressure needs to be put on Mexico & other LA countries to open up their markets and allow for greater development of the middle class. In the longr term, taht would remove the incentive to stow away in a Honda with 10 of your close friends to work for $2/hr in the US.    If the concern about illegals is the tax & benefits drain on the municipalities, I certainly would not oppose sending Mexico an annual bill for the services the workers tally.

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Excellant post. The key point being the 8 month political cycle. I am not sure why (actually I d know why), but people seem to think all problems can be solved in a 60 minute drama show.

 

To add to what you say, if Mexico continues to slide back, it will look for "financial" support from somewhere else. That somewhere else may include some folks that we really don't want knocking on our doors economically, where they can even easier dump cheap goods (like China or Russia). I could even see Japan jumping on that and getting into the 21st century version of a World war with us, but doing so on a large economic scale.

 

In addition a lot of the foreign investment that we see would dry up for the closer and cheaper confines just south of the border. Less taxes, NAFTA in place, makes it quite attractive.

[GG]

To add to what you say, if Mexico continues to slide back, it will look for "financial" support from somewhere else.  That somewhere else may include some folks that we really don't want knocking on our doors economically, where they can even easier dump cheap goods (like China or Russia). 

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Not just that, but is my wild imagination that sees AQ making inroads in a more impoverished Latin America? BTW, how much oil does US import from Mexico & Venezuela?

[Chef Jim]

On a macro level, do you believe that the rise of the housing market in the last 5 years has been a major catalyst for the economic expansion in the US?  If the asnwer is yes, do you also believe that the housing market would be as frothy if the average cost of new construction was 20% greater?

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Can't answer that, however is it enough to offset the amount of money that is spent on schooling and medical care for the illegals? It really could just be a wash.

 

Illegal Immigration Costs in CA Alone