Going on the Record on JP Losman

[2003Contenders]

I think the open battle for the starting QB job is the best thing that could have happened to JP -- and the team. Although I am not endorsing JP, there are a number of valid points to bring up about what went dreadfully wrong last season...

 

1. Simply handing the unproven JP the starting job without at least a semblance of a fair competition was a very foolish thing to do. He lost out on having the chance to COMPETE to EARN the starting job -- and TD/MM likely created some unnecessary locker-room friction. That is, we know that a number of veterans were unhappy that the job was "handed" to JP.

 

2. While the decision to move toward Holcomb after 4 starts may have been worthwhile, as the season was still salvageable -- it always struck me as asinine that the coaches' offensive philosophy changed. Perhaps part of that philosophy was a result of Holcomb's dink-and-dunk style as opposed to JP's gunslinger approach. But it is also fair to say that the team was more dedicated to the running game, when Holcomb was in there. In fact, the offense looked its sharpest in weeks 5 and 6 -- at home against the Dolphins and Jets -- when there actually appeared to be a rhyme or reason to the play calling. Of course, like virtually every other game last year, the offensive production was primarily relegated to the first half, as the coaches failed to make proper halftime adjustments (but that's for a different thread). Throughout the season, there never seemed to be a real rhythm or gameplan offensively, when JP was behind center. It was almost as if you could imagine MM telling the young QB, "OK, JP, go make some plays!"

 

3. MM may prove to be a fine coach one day, but during his time in Buffalo, especially in his final year, he just never seemed to push the right buttons. For me, JP's season was effectively lost in what was ironically his finest game as a passer. We all remember that infamous goal-line interception that proved to be the turning point in a game that originally looked to be a route. The INT started a crazy chain of event above and beyond ultimately losing that game.

 

-- The kid was clearly down on himself after the INT. The coaches made no attempt to give him the standard, "Hang in there!" pep talk. While JP deserves blame for having thrown the ball -- I think MM deserves even more blame for having called such a play in a first-and-goal from inside the 5 yard line situation, when the team was leading by 3 TDs.

 

-- MM showed little confidence in his young QB by pretty much asking him to sit on his hands for the remainder of that game.

 

-- JP was denied the experience of having a true "breakout game", as the bad taste left by the INT and lack of action in the 2nd half of the game outweighed the great peformance in the first half.

 

-- Then, of course, there was the Moulds situation as it related to that game. While that may seem unrelated to the discussion at hand, it is yet another symptom of the underlying friction that Moulds was likely causing behind the scenes as it related to JP being the starter. Recall that Moulds wound up being suspended for the next game -- a blowout loss against New England -- prior to being reinstated. By the way, Holcomb was named starter for the first game of Moulds' return.

 

4. In going back to Holcomb for those final games, MM essentially gave up on JP's progress and further castrated him in his teammates eyes. If JP has any shot at ever gaining their respect, he will have to seize the QB job the old fashioned way -- by earning it.

 

I'm sure you've all read Marv's quotes about the Nall signing by now:

 

"I think this is a better competitive situation for J.P. . . . not to have the new savior, the new first-round savior draft choice [label] to come in. I think it tends to lead us to a more level-headed quarterback competition. It's open for all three of them."

 

This tells me a couple of things. One, despite speculation on this board, the Bills are NOT interested in drafting one of those elite QBs coming out of college this year. So you can put the Leinert-Young-Cutler draft scenarios to rest. Also, we've already seen Holcomb's upside, which isn't significant. The offense would really be in for a world of hurt if he were to win the starting job. However, Nall adds an extra dimension in that we do not know exactly what his upside is. That is to say that he serves as the perfect competitor to JP in that it isn't simply the case of Youth/Talent Vs. Experience/Guile as it would have been with JP versus Holcomb. Indeed, Nall should provide the perfect competetive balance here of a player who is good enough to compete and to push JP to make him better -- but is unlikely to be good enough to actually win the job.

 

Of course, if Nall is indeed good enough to win the job, then it makes his signing an even smarter one.

[JDG]

The way I read it, you think Losman will fail just because you think he will fail. 

 

Fair enough. Although to be exactly precise, I simply think that it is far more likely than not that Losman will fail, and I base this on comparing Losman's early performance versus the performances other 1st Round QB's in their second year in the League.

 

Really, my posts are basically just responses to what I view to be two prevalent myths among Bills fans:

1) MYTH #1 - Losman's statistical performance last year is comparable to any number of other successful QB's who struggled early in their careers.

 

2) MYTH #2 - It is unfathomable that the Bills' brain trust could decide after just two seasons and 9 games that Losman "just doesn't have it" and begin making plans to move on (such as drafting a QB at #8 overall if one falls to us, or such as naming Nall or Holcomb the starter for next year, or such as drafting a QB in rounds 2-4 of the draft.)

 

I get drawn into all these Losman debates because I keep seeing some variant of one of the above two myths being repeated, and can't resist pointing out the truth: Losman's performance so far has been substantially below that of other successful QB's who have struggled early, particularly in their second years; and there is ample precedent for NFL franchises accurately realizing that they have a bust QB even after just two seasons and less than a full season of starts.

 

I admit the possibility that Losman might turn out fine, but the evidence seems to suggest that that will be unlikely. I'd love for him to be a Donovan McNabb, but I don't think he is quite as talented at McNabb. In any event, Donovan McNabb made his teams better in college, whereas Losman's teams really struggled in college. Now, there's by no means a 1 to 1 correlation between college and pro success, but his failure to succeed in college I think would have made Losman a substantially inferior prospect to McNabb on that basis alone, had they come out in the same year.

 

JDG

[Like A Mofo]

Bottom line with JP:

 

MM SCREWED this up BIG time....

 

Should have declared an open competition for the job before camp...Holcumb would have won the job based on that....

 

After 6-8 games with KH and the Bills were struggling...then J.P could have started the rest of the season....

 

MM did this reverse.....and that set the tone for a bad situation.

[Tom]

JP's accuracy will improve with time playing the position. The more comfortable he feels back there, the more accurate his throws will become. There is no shortcut for developing a franchise QB. You just have to let him play and grow.

Agreed......

Put a real line in front of him and then asess his performance. He was essentially a rookie on '05.

[stuckincincy]

 

1. Simply handing the unproven JP the starting job without at least a semblance of a fair competition was a very foolish thing to do. He lost out on having the chance to COMPETE to EARN the starting job -- and TD/MM likely created some unnecessary locker-room friction. That is, we know that a number of veterans were unhappy that the job was "handed" to JP.

 

639003[/snapback]

 

These days, when one drafts a QB in the first round, the expectation is that he is going to start - soon. Rivers, to me, was an exception - who knew Brees would catch fire?

 

Palmer sat out his first year, and replaced the 2003 comback player of the year - Kitna. He started out 2 and 5.

[Tom]

Bottom line with JP:

 

MM SCREWED this up BIG time....

 

Should have declared an open competition for the job before camp...Holcumb would have won the job based on that....

 

After 6-8 games with KH and the Bills were struggling...then J.P could have started the rest of the season....

 

MM did this reverse.....and that set the tone for a bad situation.

And this is why TD (and MM) are gone.

Realistically, it should have been Drew and not Holcomb but thats another subject.

[BobbyC81]

Actually, he statistically played worse than many past NFL 1st Year starters - particularly he played worse than those 1st Year starters who were, like Losman, in their second year.

 

JDG

638996[/snapback]

 

 

 

Again, here are some 1st year stats for QBs who had great careers:

 

Aikman- 9 TDs, 18 INTs, 52.9 Comp %

Bradshaw- 6 TDs, 24 INTs, 38.1 Comp %

Elway- 7 TDs, 14 INTs, 47.5 Comp %

 

 

Losman's numbers 8 TDs, 8 INTs, 49.6 Comp %

 

Sure the bottomline is moving the offense and winning games but was he really so bad??

[Max Fischer]

On the one hand, you're saying Holcomb went to his safety valve too often, resulting in a high completion percentage but low yardage. On the other hand, you say Losman didn't have a worthy safety valve to go to. If Holcomb compensated for bad offensive line play by always going to his safety valve, why couldn't Losman do the same?

638980[/snapback]

 

That's right Bills didn't have a "worthy" (i.e. "effective")safety valve.

 

However, Holcomb always went to it even when the chance of a decent YAC was mimimal b/c he doesn't have a strong arm, he rarely went long, and never really tried to make the more difficult pass.

 

On the other hand, it is very possible that JP made the right play by trying the difficult (but necessary) pass or took off to run to make a positive play.

 

In last year's offense, our safety valve (or simply the third option) was either very poorly drawnup, executed or not good personnel. I think JP ignored it b/c it was usually a waste while KH almost always went there -- and since the defense knew he couldn't throw long they let him throw short, unproductive throws.

 

Holcomb is a OK QB. Smart guy who knows how to play. But his style of play is easy for Defenses to "catch up" on. I'll have to look over the games but it may be easier to defend KH the longer he plays.

 

The only way to know if ANY QB can play to their potential (and it's fair to say JP has much, much more than KH); is to give them a chance to play well -- i.e. time to thrown, a running game, decent gameplan, well designed plays, etc. I think JP played for the Steelers he may not have won the Super Bowl but we'd certainly know if he has the chance to play to his potential.

[2003Contenders]

These days, when one drafts a QB in the first round, the expectation is that he is going to start - soon.  Rivers, to me, was an exception - who knew Brees would catch fire?

 

Palmer sat out his first year, and replaced the 2003 comback player of the year - Kitna.  He started out 2 and 5.

639016[/snapback]

 

You are making my point for me. Namely, Marvin Lewis decided to stay the course and did not panic, when the Bengals started out 2-5 under Palmer. Maybe if Kitna had started those first few games, the Bengals would have had a better record, and maybe they would have even made the playoffs. However, in the long run, Lewis believed that it was for the betterment of the franchise for Palmer to take his lumps as part of the learning process. I doubt that there were many calling for Kitna to start last season. Conversely, MM jumped ship when the Bills were 1-3 with JP -- and, even worse, at the end of the season, when there was nothing to play for, MM refused to let JP gain any additional development experience.

 

Regarding the decision to hand JP the job in the first place, remember also that the Bills' situation was unique in that the team had just cut a proven starter in Bledsoe -- and the team was coming off a 9-7 season. Rightly or wrongly, the perception last year was that the team was playoff-ready with Bledsoe in tow. The Bengals situation differs in that the perception of the Bengals team was that they were an up and coming group -- and the switch to Palmer was an inevitable part of that process. Also, although Kitna was coming off a very strong season, when the reins were handed to Palmer, well... this was Jon Kitna who lost his job, not Drew Bledsoe, who ranks among all timers in career stats. As subtle as it may seem, the decision to CUT Bledsoe, rather than to just demote him (as was the case with Kitna) likely created any even bigger raucus for JP to overcome.

 

Don't get me worng I have my reservations about JP that go above and beyond the lousy situation MM placed him in last season. For one thing, I seriously question his leadership abilities and whether or not he has that "it" factor. Jeff George was one of the most talented QBs to ever throw the football, but he was a failure because he felt that "leadership was overrated." Again, I draw upon the Moulds situation as a greater symptom of this dysfunctionality. Maybe it wouldn't have been such a bad thing if JP had grabbed him by the throat and told him to shut up...

[Stussy109]

JP RULEZ... I want to see the guy play, he has the "it" factor. just my opinion. Kelly Kolcomb showed he didn't have "it" when the game was on the line vs. NE and he threw a 3yard out on 4th and 9. I'm not opposed to a big name QB, but with who we have on the roster, JP is the guy.

[stuckincincy]

Maybe it wouldn't have been such a bad thing if JP had grabbed him by the throat and told him to shut up...

639046[/snapback]

 

Quite so.

 

His playing style aside, that always ticked me off about Bledsoe - his hang-dog walking off the field when he should have whacked Gilbride over the head with his helmet and then leave the field.

[mead107]

i think JP should have a shot this year at starting , but i got to think marv got nall for a reason .the more i look at the kid from GB the more i like the move . .

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

JP's status as qb is where it should be right now. The new coaches are taking a good hard look at his film and his performance, and no doubt think he may or may not be the answer. The fans, including those writing at length about the changes that are being made/should be made for 2006, have every right to question JP's future based on last years performance.

 

However, as a long time Bills fan, football fan in general, I look at last year's abysmal offensive year and write the largest part off to the coaching staff and decisions made offensively and defensively. MM took a team that had a pretty good second half of the season the year before (Pittsburgh blew them out and that was indicative the team was not quite thre yet), and totally screwed the pooch the following year. We had underperforming players, we had a blitz happy DC who apparently suffered rom the loss of a couple key players but could never adjust the schemes to fit the situation. We had unhappy players, Moulds and Adams (and Clements storming out of the press conference after the Miami debacle was priceless, even for me as a fan), we had the most confusing set of offensive play calling all year long. On top of that, years of ignoring the O-line kicked up square in the jimmy, and it was week after week after week (I could go 15 times with this, giving them the Texans opening day) of absolutely unwatchable football.

 

Time will tell with JP, and I for one I hope he's going to be a really good qb who has the skills to get us back to contender form. Mostly, because he's already there. All I know for sure is with all of MM's scheming last year, I have no real sense if JP is even a decent long-term qb. When you play on a team that sucks, and you are coached by a guy who is making sucky decisions, and the two coordinators are going through the suckizization process, and your marquis receiver is going through menopause and thinks you won't throw him the ball, it's tough to say what you can do. Sometimes, the afore-mentioned kick in the jimmy is one of the highlites of your day.

 

Open competition, play the guy that can win it for you, work on all the baotload of little problems you have, and move forward.

 

Good day to you and yours.

[finknottle]

JP RULEZ... I want to see the guy play, he has the "it" factor.  just my opinion.  Kelly Kolcomb showed he didn't have "it" when the game was on the line vs. NE and he threw a 3yard out on 4th and 9.  I'm not opposed to a big name QB, but with who we have on the roster, JP is the guy.

639056[/snapback]

 

I agree that it's it 'it' factor that counts, not stats. IMO I havn't seen it from JP, so I'm disappointed but willing to give him more time. But not too much more - you can't hold the franchise hostage.

[jester43]

Well, my views on JP Losman seem to have become quite the source of controversy.  Since the visibility of this position is surely going to be the source for future "I told you so" posts, here is what I believe regarding JP Losman as of 3/21/06 for the record, so that there isn't any confusion....

 

1) Kelly Holcomb was the QB who gave the Bills the best chance to win every single week during 2005. 

 

Indeed, Buffalo *might* well have won three or four more games had Holcomb started every single game.  (Although for the record, at the time of the actual games this season, I was as excited to get the chance to see JP Losman play as the next guy.)

 

2) Just because successful QB X struggled early in his career, it does not mean that Losman's performance so far has even been good enough to be comparable to QB X's struggles. 

 

Although many NFL QB's have struggled early in their careers before going on to success, (such as Drew Brees) JP Losman has significantly underperformed most of those examples.  This is particularly true if comparing JP Losman to other QB's in their second year in the NFL (and many of these examples did not play as rookies either.)  Although JP Losman has only had nine games under his belt, he was still nevertheless as a second-year player, and should be judged as such.  His performance last year would have been disappointing for a rookie - for a second year player, it was downright abysmal.    Indeed, almost all, if not all, of the examples of QB's who put up similar stats to Losman's before going on to success are examples of QB's who put up such stats as a rookie.  There seem to be few, if any, examples of a QB sitting out their rookie year, putting up comparably abysmal stats as a second-year player, and then going on to success in the NFL.

 

3) Although successful QB X struggled early in his career - unsuccessful QB Z also struggled early in his career, and Losman's performance might actually bear as much similarilty to QB Z's track record as to QB X's.

 

If a QB is simply never going to develop into a productive starter, the quicker you are able to reach that conclusion, the quicker you able to avoid having lost seasons due to shoddy QB play - lost seasons that hamper the development of the rest of your offensive skill position players, and the quicker you are able to begin developing your real QB of the future.  Just look at what sticking with Joey Harrington has done to the Detroit franchise over the past few years.  It is worth noting that Heath Shuler was abandoned after two years (just 18 games appearances (not sure how many starts) in those 2 years) as well as Cade McNown (@14 starts in 25 total games in two seasons) and Akili Smith (@15 starts in 18 games over 2 years).    Indeed, although he wasn't a 1st Rounder, Shaun King was essentially abandoned as a starting QB after just his second year in the NFL and only 22 regular season games.    Judgments are made after just two season on 1st Round QB's all the time by NFL talent evaluators , and often with less than a full season of starting. 

 

4) At the heart of JP Losman's failings as a QB so far is his completion percentage. 

 

Big plays are nice, but ultimately a decent completion percentage is a sine qua non of NFL QB play.  If you don't complete passes, then you are punting far more often than you want to, and ultimately losing games - such as  by giving up serious comebacks to your opponent, thanks to all the extra possessions they receive, despite the big plays.  All successful NFL QB's eventually exhibit a decent completion percentage.  Even Eli Manning showed the ability to complete 60% or more of his passes in a game early on in his career, even while he was struggling overall.  Heck, even Cade McNown showed that ability!  So far, however, JP Losman has yet to show that ability.

 

5) It is legitimate to judge a QB after just two years in the League.  At some point, even after just two years in the League, a QB has played too badly to justify further starting opportunities. 

 

Although it is difficult for fans to judge a QB after only nine games, NFL Coaches and GM's have the ability to break down the tape of each of those games, the opportunity to directly interview the QB in question, and to examine the film of practices - as well as to examine the entire pre-draft scouting report on a player.  I believe it is entirely possible for an NFL Head Coach and NFL General Manager to develop certain conclusions about a quarterback.  These conclusions are probably based on percentages and a range of outcomes - i.e. the likelihood of becoming a productive NFL QB in the future.  If Marvy Levy and Dick Jauron conclude from this information that it is unlikely (but probably not impossible) that JP Losman will become a productive NFL starter, then Levy and Jauron should absolutely pursue other options at QB.  This includes bringing in Craig Nall, or at least considering the drafting of a QB if they rate a QB is being clearly the best player available once we get on the clock.    Due dilligence for Marvy Levy and Dick Jauron will certainly involve evaluating the available QB's in the draft, and assessing the likelihood of one of them becoming a productive NFL starter vs. the likelihood of JP Losman becoming an NFL starter vs. the likelihood of the other players available becoming a productive NFL starter.  Although the Bills have now spent a ton of picks on Bledsoe and Losman, we can't change the past and can only look to the future.  We can't chase our losses - so if a QB is the best pick available, then we should make that pick.  Ultimately Dick Jauron and Marv Levy are going to be judged by wins and losses 2-3 years from now, and they can't be expected to blindly trot out a QB they don't believe in (if, indeed, they don't believe in him) just because their predecessor left them with him.

 

6) I believe that there is no guarantee that JP Losman should be the starting QB on the first day of Training Camp, nor on Opening Day.

 

Based on the information available, Dick Jauron *must* start the QB on Opening Day who gives us the best chance to win that game.  If there is no sign of change in Training Camp, then that player will be Kelly Holcomb or Craig Nall.    JP Losman has had the opportunity to start, but his sorry performance in those opportunities has not earned him the continued opportunity to start in the blind hope that he will develop.  As noted in #2 above, his performance has been substantially below that of other second-year QB's who struggled early in their careers before going on to success.

 

Note:

 

I am not saying that the Bills should cut Losman - indeed I am saying that I would totally support Marv Levy and Dick Jauron giving Losman the opportunity to come to Training Camp this summer and win the starting job back from Kelly Holcomb (and hold off the competition from Craig Nall), should Marv Levy and Dick Jauron think that that opportunity is warranted. 

 

I am not saying that I think that Losman will never become a productive NFL starter - I am just saying that it is unlikely, based on the experiences of past NFL QBs.  I *love* mobile QB's, and I thought Losman was an exciting player last year.  Unfortunately, while he is exciting, I also believe that last year he simply was not good enough to win.  Moreover there are scant few examples of QB's putting up similarly bad numbers to Losman at the start of their careers, particularly in their second years in the NFL and going on to success.  At some point, those odds (based on prior NFL experiences) start to become daunting - and again, there is a certain benefit to being able to cut bait with a likely failure as quickly as possible.

 

I believe that given the way the odds are aligning, the Bills should still give Losman a chance this year, but should also be preparing for the fact that the most likely outcome of Losman getting that chance this year is that he will fail to produce at a high enough level to justify starting him in the future.  Indeed, the Bills should be preparing for the possibility that based on evaluations in this year's camp, and if Craig Nall in particular could win the job, and perhaps if we end up with another young QB in this year's draft, that Losman might never start for the Bills again.  But for now, I consider that to be just a legitimate possibility - and the reason I get into so many debates about Losman on here, is that far too many Bills fans seem to view that as an impossibility.

 

JDG

638387[/snapback]

so i missed it...what was the problem with this?

[Orton's Arm]

However, Holcomb always went to it even when the chance of a decent YAC was mimimal b/c he doesn't have a strong arm, he rarely went long, and never really tried to make the more difficult pass.

Interesting that poor offensive line play didn't find its way into your description of why Holcomb went short as often as he did. If I'm playing behind that line, my expectations for how much time I'll have are quite low. A short gain is better than an incompletion or a sack, and the line just didn't give much time for things to open up deep.

In last year's offense, our safety valve (or simply the third option) was either very poorly drawnup, executed or not good personnel.  I think JP ignored it b/c it was usually a waste while KH almost always went there -- and since the defense knew he couldn't throw long they let him throw short, unproductive throws. 

Could the Bills have used improvement at the safety valve? Absolutely. But having been dealt the same hand as Losman, Holcomb was able to take advantage of the safety valve options that did exist. Elsewhere I've shown the offense produced an average of seven more points per game under Holcomb than it did during Losman's second stint. So Holcomb's passes weren't as unproductive as all that.

The only way to know if ANY QB can play to their potential (and it's fair to say JP has much, much more than KH); is to give them a chance to play well -- i.e. time to thrown, a running game, decent gameplan, well designed plays, etc. 

639028[/snapback]

If we wanted a QB who could play well when given a good offensive line, strong running game, good playcalling, etc., then we should have stuck with Bledsoe.

[JDG]

You are making my point for me. Namely, Marvin Lewis decided to stay the course and did not panic, when the Bengals started out 2-5 under Palmer. Maybe if Kitna had started those first few games, the Bengals would have had a better record, and maybe they would have even made the playoffs. However, in the long run, Lewis believed that it was for the betterment of the franchise for Palmer to take his lumps as part of the learning process. I doubt that there were many calling for Kitna to start last season. Conversely, MM jumped ship when the Bills were 1-3 with JP

 

But you have to understand that there was a huge difference between Losman's and Palmer's performances in their first starts in their second year:

 

Losman:

17 of 28 (61%) for 170 yrds 1 TD 0 INT W v HOU

11 of 28 (39%) for 113 yrds 0 TD 0 INT L @ TB

10 of 23 (43%) for 75 yrds 0 TD 1 INT L v ATL

_7 of 15 (47%) for 75 yrds 0 TD 1 INT L @ NO

 

 

Palmer:

18 of 27 (67%) for 248 yrds 2 TD 1 INT L @ NYJ

21 of 38 (55%) for 147 yrds 0 TD 1 INT W v MIA

25 of 52 (48%) for 316 yrds 0 TD 3 INT L v BAL

20 of 37 (54%) for 164 yrds 1 TD 2 INT L @ PIT

20 of 35 (56%) for 148 yrds 1 TD 1 INT L @ CLE

 

It should be self-evident that Losman was substantially worse than Palmer, even though both were handed the starting job in their second years without much first-year experience. The point isn't that Palmer played well - in fact, he was arguably pretty bad during that stretch. The reason that Marvin Lewis stuck with him, however, is that the Bengals were able to tolerate bad QB play. The problem for the Bills with Losman, is that he was performing substantially *worse*than*bad. Indeed, the killer for Losman was his virtually unfathomably bad performance line against a woeful New Orleans team. The Bills had no choice but to bench Losman after that, as at that point it was crystal clear that Losman was not on the Carson Palmer trajectory.

 

JDG

[RuntheDamnBall]

Interesting that poor offensive line play didn't find its way into your description of why Holcomb went short as often as he did. If I'm playing behind that line, my expectations for how much time I'll have are quite low. A short gain is better than an incompletion or a sack, and the line just didn't give much time for things to open up deep.

 

Could the Bills have used improvement at the safety valve? Absolutely. But having been dealt the same hand as Losman...

639141[/snapback]

H_A, I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Only because I feel very strongly that the playcalling took a drastic turn for the worse with Losman in there. If you look at the number of poorly designed running plays called, when they were called, and how they set up Losman's passing downs it's ridiculous, as if Mularkey just didn't even know what to do with a young QB -- namely, protect him, set him up with a consistent, run-first attack, and offer limited, high-percentage opportunities. It's easy to see that this has worked with Big Ben.

 

Now I'm not saying that JP has shown the poise in there that Roethlisberger has displayed, but what I am saying is that Mularkey called a safer game with Holcomb in there than he did with Losman. Perhaps that's an arm-strength thing, and MM felt he could rely on JP's deep game more to the detriment of the run, but MM used the run to set up an efficient passing game from Holcomb. He didn't even try to do that with Losman.

 

There's my argument that they didn't have the same tools. And please be balanced in your criticism of the O-line. If it sucked for Holcomb -- and it most certainly did -- it sucked for Losman. This had an effect on each QB, sadly to the point that Holcomb got a concussion and JP suffered what turned out to be a season-ending setback. I'd rate KH's comparative success vs. JP as a result of experience -- experience that the latter needs to succeed.

[RuntheDamnBall]

But you have to understand that there was a huge difference between Losman's and Palmer's performances in their first starts in their second year:

639143[/snapback]

You're hitting crusade territory. Already you've hit upon a page worth of criticisms. Can't you let your 'work' thus far speak for itself?

[VABills]

How can anyone say the play calling was better for Holcomb after that fake QB sneak, roll-out whatever passback option play to Willis who was supposed to throw the ball to Evans on a fly pattern from the 1 yard line.