What happens to us if Cutler goes first?

[alg]

Apparently he DID score a SIX on the test. Its coming out now that he scored a 16 - that, according to the spin mastering of the League and his agent. What they fail to tell you is his 16 is based on a rather hurried RE-TEST.

 

Anyone want a QB who scores 6 on the Wonderlic? Sure, lets dump JP and give up our 1+2 for this guy. And a $40 million contract. BRILLIANT !!!

[1gap2gap]

http://nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/9269708

 

Just wondering. How would that affect us. Seriously Im getting tired about people insisting we MUST only take a DT/OL. The board has not had a correct consensus on who we would pick in recent memory. Couple of questions:

 

1-would you be willing to trade up for Young? he's raw but has much more promise that Losman

 

2-Should we really risk taking another high pick OL?

 

3-Ngata is good. How does he stack up to other DTs in recent memory?

612659[/snapback]

 

 

We would draft # 8

[Chilly]

Apparently he DID score a SIX on the test.  Its coming out now that he scored a 16 - that, according to the spin mastering of the League and his agent.  What they fail to tell you is his 16 is based on a rather hurried RE-TEST. 

 

Anyone want a QB who scores 6 on the Wonderlic?  Sure, lets dump JP and give up our 1+2 for this guy.  And a $40 million contract.  BRILLIANT !!!

613240[/snapback]

 

Yeah, because there's proof that he scored a 6 outside of a rumor.

 

What's come out is that he scored a 16 and is plannong on retaking it a 2nd time. The league really wants to lie about this, it makes a huge difference to them. Either way it creates publicity.

[Chilly]

I did say "alleged"...that gives me an out.

 

But you know, none of this really matters because the Bills WILL NOT draft Young, Linehart, Cutler, Doug Flutie, or Joe Montana.  Better just accept it now and save yourself the heartache.

 

PTR

613227[/snapback]

 

Rumors aren't a reason to NOT draft someone when they aren't true. Using "alleged" to "give yourself a way out" doesn't make that true.

 

I agree that in all probability we aren't gonna draft a QB. There will be no "heartache" if we don't. I'd LIKE to see us draft Vince because after watching him for 3 years, I feel he's something special.

[PromoTheRobot]

Rumors aren't a reason to NOT draft someone when they aren't true.  Using "alleged" to "give yourself a way out" doesn't make that true.

 

I agree that in all probability we aren't gonna draft a QB.  There will be no "heartache" if we don't.  I'd LIKE to see us draft Vince because after watching him for 3 years, I feel he's something special.

613265[/snapback]

The Bills aren't interested in Young not because of Wonderlic scores, but because we have to rebuild the O and D lines first!!! If we draft Young, or any QB and ignore our lines, then it's going to be 2005 over and over! And then the draftnicks will be howling we should draft the next hotsh-- QB prospect every frickin' draft!

 

PTR

[Orton's Arm]

Obviously the Bills need to evaluate all their options this draft, including taking a QB with their first pick, trading down, trading up, or staying put. It's important to look at the situation objectively, without allowing team needs to influence how you evaluate any given player's chances of success in the NFL.

 

To prepare for the future, it's best to learn from the past. Back in 2000, the Bills chose not to trade up for Pennington. The Bills thought they had their QB of the future on board with Rob Johnson, and anyway their needs were on defense. Erik Flowers was taken in the first, Tavares Tillman in the second, and Corey Moore in the third.

 

Taking Rivers when they already had Brees hurt the Chargers a lot less than the Bills' failure to take Pennington hurt the Bills. Had we taken Pennington, we could have saved ourselves the first rounder traded for Drew, the first, second, and fifth rounders used on Losman. Barring injury, the Bills would have a proven QB right now, instead of still being unsure if the QB problem has been solved.

 

What lessons can we learn from this?

1. Don't reach for a player simply because he fills a need.

2. Don't make too many assumptions about what you don't need until a player proves himself.

3. If a player stands out from his peers on your boards, do what you can to take him.

 

I'd also like to throw in another random piece of advice: if the draft is deep at a given position, it's usually a good idea to take advantage of that position. Eric Moulds was drafted in a year known for its receivers. The same could be said of Andre Reed. Plenty of QBs were drafted in the first round when Jim Kelly was taken. This year is going to be deep along the offensive line. If the Bills don't draft at least two OL, it's a lot more likely this draft will be a failure.

[alg]

Yeah, because there's proof that he scored a 6 outside of a rumor.

 

What's come out is that he scored a 16 and is plannong on retaking it a 2nd time.  The league really wants to lie about this, it makes a huge difference to them.  Either way it creates publicity.

613264[/snapback]

 

The 16 is coming from the same sources we're getting the 6 from. Can't have it both ways bucko. But thanks for your great insights.

 

BTW, the agent's interests in this are obvious, but since when did then NFL start playing 'hands-off' when it came to promoting future NFL meal tickets? Not. Its not to their advantage to have a highly hyped QB exposed as having a bag of rocks for a brain. Just look at how this info is coming out. It is a spin job, plain and simple.

[Ramius]

Obviously the Bills need to evaluate all their options this draft, including taking a QB with their first pick, trading down, trading up, or staying put. It's important to look at the situation objectively, without allowing team needs to influence how you evaluate any given player's chances of success in the NFL.

 

To prepare for the future, it's best to learn from the past. Back in 2000, the Bills chose not to trade up for Pennington. The Bills thought they had their QB of the future on board with Rob Johnson, and anyway their needs were on defense. Erik Flowers was taken in the first, Tavares Tillman in the second, and Corey Moore in the third.

 

Taking Rivers when they already had Brees hurt the Chargers a lot less than the Bills' failure to take Pennington hurt the Bills. Had we taken Pennington, we could have saved ourselves the first rounder traded for Drew, the first, second, and fifth rounders used on Losman. Barring injury, the Bills would have a proven QB right now, instead of still being unsure if the QB problem has been solved.

 

What lessons can we learn from this?

1. Don't reach for a player simply because he fills a need.

2. Don't make too many assumptions about what you don't need until a player proves himself.

3. If a player stands out from his peers on your boards, do what you can to take him.

 

I'd also like to throw in another random piece of advice: if the draft is deep at a given position, it's usually a good idea to take advantage of that position. Eric Moulds was drafted in a year known for its receivers. The same could be said of Andre Reed. Plenty of QBs were drafted in the first round when Jim Kelly was taken. This year is going to be deep along the offensive line. If the Bills don't draft at least two OL, it's a lot more likely this draft will be a failure.

613272[/snapback]

 

I see a lot more clearly now. Your obsession covers not just kelly holcomb, but all noodle arm QB's. I'm surprised you arent drooling over leinhart.

[Orton's Arm]

I see a lot more clearly now. Your obsession covers not just kelly holcomb, but all noodle arm QB's. I'm surprised you arent drooling over leinhart.

613758[/snapback]

Joe Montana lasted until the 3rd round largely because of his "noodle arm." He did okay, don't you think?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Joe Montana lasted until the 3rd round largely because of his "noodle arm." He did okay, don't you think?

616363[/snapback]

 

Joe Montana also had Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, a dominant OL and a top-notch TE.

[BB2004]

http://nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/9269708

 

Just wondering. How would that affect us. Seriously Im getting tired about people insisting we MUST only take a DT/OL. The board has not had a correct consensus on who we would pick in recent memory. Couple of questions:

 

1-would you be willing to trade up for Young? he's raw but has much more promise that Losman

 

2-Should we really risk taking another high pick OL?

 

3-Ngata is good. How does he stack up to other DTs in recent memory?

612659[/snapback]

 

On number 1, I don't think so. We still to find out if JP's the guy.

 

On number 2, absolutley. If D-Brick is there at our pick we need to take him before we take Ngata. The offensive line is a little more of a priority than the defensive line in my opinion.

 

On number 3, Ngata seems like he's a natural run stuffer. I've heard he's getting a lot of comparisons to Vince Wolfork of the New England Patriots.

[JDG]

http://nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/9269708

 

Just wondering. How would that affect us. Seriously Im getting tired about people insisting we MUST only take a DT/OL. The board has not had a correct consensus on who we would pick in recent memory.

 

Uh, Evans, Clements, and Winfield were all pretty much consensus picks off the top of my head....

 

JDG

[The Dean]

Joe Montana also had Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, a dominant OL and a top-notch TE.

616373[/snapback]

 

John Taylor and Bill Walsh helped a lot, too...dontcha think?

[Pyrite Gal]

To prepare for the future, it's best to learn from the past. Back in 2000, the Bills chose not to trade up for Pennington. The Bills thought they had their QB of the future on board with Rob Johnson, and anyway their needs were on defense. Erik Flowers was taken in the first, Tavares Tillman in the second, and Corey Moore in the third.

 

 

613272[/snapback]

 

Actually, I flat out disagree with this conclusion. Its actually very hard to disagree with this woulda/coulda/shoulda analysis because by definition when one starts with an assumption that past actions were different then it is virtually guaranteed the future would be different.

 

The problem with this proposition is that you simply assume that it would be different better than different worse in term of outcome.

 

However, in this case, if the thing you assume is different (the Bills draft Pennington in 2000) there is no reason to assume that anything whatsoever would be different about the Bills outcome in 2000 or 2001 for that matter.

 

The major even reasonably forseeable difference caused by your assumption is that the Bills would be without Flowers at DE. This change actually makes little difference in terms of the outcome of Bills play as essentially even having drafted Flowers he made no real contribution to the Bills. The team lacked DE talent with Flowers and under your assumption the team would continue to lack DE talent.

 

On the other side with your assumption the team now has Pennington. Well in real life for NYJ Pennington sat and learned for virtually all of two seasons before he took the field as a consistent starter for NYJ. It appears more than reasonable that he he would have followed pretty much the same course of action if he had become a Bill.

 

In the 2000 season he would have sat on the bench as the disaster QB behind DF and RJ. The Bills had already signed these two to contracts which locked up over $10 million in salary to these 2 QBs. RWS had already engineered the lesser paid of these two multi-millionaires sitting against Indy and the Titans to play the richer of these two QBs, RJ.

 

In the 2001 season, TD's first Pennington in the AVP spot likely moves up to #2 QB when DF is a cap casualty and likely plays even sooner than he did as a Jet due to RJ being injury prone, but Pennington is actually the QB of a team in 2001 that was 3-13 because both the offense and the defense were horrendous.

 

IMHO, the major story for the failure of this squad was that we foolishly went to the GW TN D which was a 4-3 when switching from a 3-4 actually necessitated that we have more quality on the DL. Having lost Big Ted and bruce as cap casualties, Wiley to FA and being about to see Hansen retire, this team and D failed because it was missing a DE of Jevon Kearse quality and put Raion Hill in to be Blaine Bishop and it did not work. Add to that the unfortunate loss of Sam Cowart and the results would not have varied a ton likely with RJ, AVP, or Pennington at QB.

 

As far as the O went, we had lousy QB play, but a big problem that year was actually that we had Sheppard as OC and he would have been bad enough to deserve being canned regardles of which QB he was making worse.

 

The conclusion you reach that we would be much better with this single change ignores the fact that the single change you offer would not do anything at all to change the personnel on the D which was a large limiting factor on the results achieved by this team, and also it would do noting to change the overall lack of good guidance that GW and Sheppard provided for this team.

 

If you want, you can inject some theory that Pennington (who was not even the NYJ starter at this point in real life) would somehow have made the D better with his ball control of the O, AND would have made Sheppard an OC who did not get canned with time left on his contract, AND would have made GW a great offensive HC, but everybody would laugh.

[ndirish1978]

Obviously the Bills need to evaluate all their options this draft, including taking a QB with their first pick, trading down, trading up, or staying put. It's important to look at the situation objectively, without allowing team needs to influence how you evaluate any given player's chances of success in the NFL.

 

To prepare for the future, it's best to learn from the past. Back in 2000, the Bills chose not to trade up for Pennington. The Bills thought they had their QB of the future on board with Rob Johnson, and anyway their needs were on defense. Erik Flowers was taken in the first, Tavares Tillman in the second, and Corey Moore in the third.

 

Taking Rivers when they already had Brees hurt the Chargers a lot less than the Bills' failure to take Pennington hurt the Bills. Had we taken Pennington, we could have saved ourselves the first rounder traded for Drew, the first, second, and fifth rounders used on Losman. Barring injury, the Bills would have a proven QB right now, instead of still being unsure if the QB problem has been solved.

 

What lessons can we learn from this?

1. Don't reach for a player simply because he fills a need.

2. Don't make too many assumptions about what you don't need until a player proves himself.

3. If a player stands out from his peers on your boards, do what you can to take him.

 

I'd also like to throw in another random piece of advice: if the draft is deep at a given position, it's usually a good idea to take advantage of that position. Eric Moulds was drafted in a year known for its receivers. The same could be said of Andre Reed. Plenty of QBs were drafted in the first round when Jim Kelly was taken. This year is going to be deep along the offensive line. If the Bills don't draft at least two OL, it's a lot more likely this draft will be a failure.

613272[/snapback]

 

 

I agree with basically everything in this post. BTW, I like Young but his wunderlic score gave me much pause. Also, is there a reason everyone loves Brick SO much. Im asking genuinely, not to start a fight. Obviously he is good, but what are the things he did in college that make everyone here want him so bad?

[ndirish1978]

Ngata DOES look like more of a need now that we released Adams

[Orton's Arm]

Joe Montana also had Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, a dominant OL and a top-notch TE.

616373[/snapback]

 

John Taylor and Bill Walsh helped a lot, too...dontcha think? 

616399[/snapback]

All right, Joe Montana wasn't a one-man football team, and he didn't win those rings all by himself. What is it exactly you guys are getting at?

[Tcali]

1-no, why would you say young as more promise, because he can run? you know nothing about his mechanics or accuracy, or what he knows on how to read defenses, nobody does.

 

2-what do you mean risk taking ANOTHER o-line high, like we do this all the time or something. mike williams was how many years ago, and then ruben was how many years before that

 

3-i really dont see what other DT's in the past have anything to do with how good Ngata will be

613153[/snapback]

oh please--of course YOUNG has more promise. The guy is a winner---almost singlehandedly won the national championship game.In my book that shows TONS of promise. The guy has great football instincts--and played real football--not Tulane football.--That being said--I havent given up on JP.

[JAMIEBUF12]

1st off the texans extended david carr..............so no way in hell is cutler going#1.with that said houston is not trading down either............reggie bush will be #1.................i would trade up for mario aj or dbrick.....

[Tcali]

John Taylor and Bill Walsh helped a lot, too...dontcha think? 

616399[/snapback]

Look how great Montana was at an advanced age and with an average ly talkented KC team.Playoffs and championship games in 2 years...And look at the pinpoint precision and absolute calm he showed against Cinci in the SB..dallas in the playoffs etcetcetcetcetcetcetcetc