Mike Williams or McKinnie

[Scraps]

If you are looking for someone who has defended MW on this board to back down from this then pick me!

 

Though trading down looked by far like the best thing for the Bills to do given that folks like Harrington (a definte loser so far), McKinnie (another definite loser so far) and MW (amother definite loser for the Bills as they cut him) I think it would be false and illogical for anyone to not recognize that past hope/calls to give MW a chance were simply wrong.

 

What also strikes me as false or illogical however is for folks to try to jusify this by looking beyond the simple reality of claiming MW did not play anywhere near well enough to justify his contract but to make a claim that McKinnie was an obviously better choice.

 

MW was a bad choice but based on his career it seems pretty clear that McKinnie would have been a bad choice as well for the Bills.

 

He clearly had demonstrated he is an idiot with:

 

1. His initial holdout

2. His actions on the Vikes sex party boat

3. His arrest for some driving/drinking charge.

 

I have not seen much of him but some film highlights (and lowlights) so please correct me if someone has seen him and he looks great as a Pro, but his first year was as best as I can tell a loss because of his holdout.

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There you go again. McKinnie would not have held out against the Bills. There were to sides to that negotiation. The Vikings were not offering a contract commensurate with McKinnie's slotting, the Bills did offer a contract commensurate with Williams slotting. It is likely that any player the Vikings drafted would have held out. But stick with your superficial analysis. You've been wrong for 4 years, why stop now?

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

I remain convinced that PP-FS JJ's success was the product of the Herschel Walker trade. Good coach? Yes. Great coach? No "great" coach goes out by getting hammered 62-7 in a playoff game.

611351[/snapback]

 

 

An excellent point, Lori. JJ was a very good coach who enjoyed great players at Miami U thanks to the iniquities of college drafting, and at Dallas thanks to the Walker trade and the bonanza of good young players that emerged from subsequent drafts. Sure, a worse coach might have done less, but it is nonetheless important to remember, as you point out, that a transferable football (or sports) brilliance separate from specific circumstances is so rare as to be virtually non-existent, even as desperate teams look to hire former geniuses to rebuild their programs.

[Scraps]

An excellent point, Lori. JJ was a very good coach who enjoyed great players at Miami U thanks to the iniquities of college drafting, and at Dallas thanks to the Walker trade and the bonanza of good young players that emerged from subsequent drafts. Sure, a worse coach might have done less, but it is nonetheless important to remember, as you point out, that a transferable football (or sports) brilliance separate from specific circumstances is so rare as to be virtually non-existent, even as desperate teams look to hire former geniuses to rebuild their programs.

611465[/snapback]

 

As proven by Barry Switzer?

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

As proven by Barry Switzer?

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Not sure if you are serious... but yes, in a way. Switzer won with the team of HOFers he inherited, then succeeded in running the team into the ground. So much for the genius of Norman!

[Scraps]

Not sure if you are serious... but yes, in a way. Switzer won with the team of HOFers he inherited, then succeeded in running the team into the ground. So much for the genius of Norman!

611477[/snapback]

 

That was exactly the point I was making.

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

That was exactly the point I was making.

611478[/snapback]

 

 

Glad to know we are on the same page... Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

Go Bills!

[Typical TBD Guy]

But... I thought the 31-49 record was because of Bledsoe?!       Or is it the "cool" thing to just throw that number around about anyone we don't like?

 

I think Shelton sucks!  We're 31-49 with him!!!  CUT HIM NOW!!!! 

 

CW

611259[/snapback]

 

Citing the 31-49 record is not "throwing that number around" when you're referring to the GM, the man who ultimately assembles the roster and head coaching staff that produces such a record.

 

I'm not sure what to make of your random Bledsoe attack. All I can say is that, looking back on the 2003 and 2004 seasons, I would place greatest blame for those 2 disasters in this order:

 

1. TD

2tie. Drew

2tie. OL

4. Coaching staff

[BADOLBILZ]

No, you are both missing the point. The title of the thread is "Mike Williams or McKinnie". Most draft analysts said that Williams was a better pick and that he could play RT or LT due to his size, speed, and athletic ability. That was my point which seems to have eluded you both. I'm not saying I liked the pick, that in retrospect it was a good pick, or anything of the sort.

 

He was supposed to be the better football player. He was not. Not by a longshot. This is what makes him a bust. If he had not been considered the better player, it would have merely been a stupid pick.

611251[/snapback]

 

The point YOU are missing is that the Bills drafted him to play RT. They had already signed Broncos LT Trey Teague and he and Jennings were immediately put to duel with the loser being moved to center. Mike Williams was not in the mix.

 

Is any of this coming back to you?

 

Drafting a RT that high made little sense, because Jennings was coming off a very good ROOKIE season at RT in which he was hailed by some as a future Pro Bowler and the Bills credited him with no sacks allowed. Don't give me any BS that he was being groomed, Jennings was in his second freakin' year and Donahoe himself didn't do anything to contest the notion that he drafted Williams to play RT. Teague and Jennings had just come in the door for chrissake.

 

As for the notion that Williams was the better player, it was false. We know that now. The offseason is long, people overanalyze, draftniks take their cue from other draftniks, and that's why Mike Mamula was also considered a first round pick by most by the time HE was drafted. Throw in the fact that most draft obsessed fans don't have any interest in college football until after their NFL team is eliminated from playoff contention and you have a great combination, people who make bad judgements based on things that don't matter and people who believe it's gospel because they haven't seen the guy play to develop their own opinion.

 

The offseason is good only for personality evaluation, and that only has so much value. People lie, put on facades, as we saw with Fat Mike. Some indiscretions are blown way out of proportion and used as a negative at the expense of common sense. In the end, the truth of the matter is, the NFL should hold the draft the week before the Super Bowl, flip a coin for the #31-#32 spots and get it over with so they can avoid all the pointless offseason re-shuffling and set teams up so they can fill needs in free agency.

[yall]

The point YOU are missing is that the Bills drafted him to play RT.  They had already signed Broncos LT Trey Teague and he and Jennings were immediately put to duel with the loser being moved to center.  Mike Williams was not in the mix.

 

So by your logic drafting a RT made no sense and left tackle was locked up, which would mean no McKinney either.

 

Tell me again why you are trolling in the Williams vs. McKinney thread?

[Ozymandius]

So by your logic drafting a RT made no sense and left tackle was locked up, which would mean no McKinney either.

 

Tell me again why you are trolling in the Williams vs. McKinney thread? 

611594[/snapback]

 

Sigh. Keep Jennings at RT, and put McKinnie at LT.

 

Mike Williams sucks balls, and anyone who thought he was going to be a great tackle was an idiot. That includes Tom Donahoe.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

So youse guys knew Tom Brady would be good? Or did this foresight only apply to Mike Williams?

[Fezmid]

Sigh.  Keep Jennings at RT, and put McKinnie at LT.

 

Mike Williams sucks balls, and anyone who thought he was going to be a great tackle was an idiot.  That includes Tom Donahoe.

611768[/snapback]

Then apparantly you're in the wrong line of work - you need to be a scout.

[Coach Tuesday]

I'm no expert. I just remember watching film of both McKinnie and Mike Williams (chest) prior to the draft, and I remember being struck by how Williams (chest) would just punish defenders on running plays - Williams (chest) would play past the whistle, continuing to pin down and beat the hell out of guys twenty yards downfield on running plays. By contrast, McKinnie struck me as somewhat unathletic and stiff, preferring to swallow up passrushers with his arms rather than shift his legs and weight. I remember thinking that wouldn't bode well for his play against speedrushers in the NFL, something that has proven to be true.

 

For all of you who think McKinnie should've been "the man," consider that he's never, not once, dominated a game against an elite speed rusher. The fact is, as some here have pointed out, neither McKinnie nor Williams (chest) were deserving of a top-five pick.

 

This thread should be entitled, "How did the Bengals outsmart everyone else and have Levi Jones at the top of their board?"

[Pyrite Gal]

The point YOU are missing is that the Bills drafted him to play RT.  They had already signed Broncos LT Trey Teague and he and Jennings were immediately put to duel with the loser being moved to center.  Mike Williams was not in the mix.

 

Is any of this coming back to you?

 

Drafting a RT that high made little sense, because Jennings was coming off a very good ROOKIE season at RT in which he was hailed by some as a future Pro Bowler and the Bills credited him with no sacks allowed.  Don't give me any BS that he was being groomed, Jennings was in his second freakin' year and Donahoe himself didn't do anything to contest the notion that he drafted Williams to play RT.  Teague and Jennings had just come in the door for chrissake.

 

As for the notion that Williams was the better player, it was false.  We know that now.  The offseason is long, people overanalyze, draftniks take their cue from other draftniks, and that's why Mike Mamula was also considered a first round pick by most by the time HE was drafted.  Throw in the fact that most draft obsessed fans don't have any interest in college football until after their NFL team is eliminated from playoff contention and you have a great combination, people who make bad judgements based on things that don't matter and people who believe it's gospel because they haven't seen the guy play to develop their own opinion.

 

The offseason is good only for personality evaluation, and that only has so much value.  People lie, put on facades, as we saw with Fat Mike.  Some indiscretions are blown way out of proportion and used as a negative at the expense of common sense.  In the end, the truth of the matter is, the NFL should hold the draft the week before the Super Bowl, flip a coin for the #31-#32 spots and get it over with so they can avoid all the pointless offseason re-shuffling and set teams up so they can fill needs in free agency.

611572[/snapback]

 

I completely agree with you that drafting an RT at #4 makes no sense at all. This is what lead me to GUESS that what TD and the Bills had in mind was to move Williams to LT as soon as they could.

 

This plan APPEARED to me to be thrown off by several events:

 

1. MW was good but not great his rookie year.

 

He had a quite productive year in 2002 as a rookie. On field production by the O he was an important part of as RT is the bottomline (though there can be an were many reasons to reasonably explain OL performance by any unit so OL production is the bottomline indicator but even that is not fully definitive in describing any single players performance in this ultimate team game).

 

On the field, the O under QB'ing by Bledsoe had both a productive running game and a passing game as evidenced by the several Pro Bowl nods (again indicative though not decisive in declaring a player good) received by offensive players.

 

The main thing MW the rookie had to learn was how to be a pro. He could be schooled in this by a pederstrian player like RG Sullivan. However, there was nothing Boselli-like in his game that demanded a move to LT even though particularly without opponents having a lot of tape on his strengths and weaknesses as a player he was productive his rookie year.

 

2. JJ also had a good but not great year at LT.

 

JJ's performance gave the Bills a little breathing room to hope MW showed a ton at RT his second year and merited a move then to LT because he proved to at least be a reasonable stop gap at LT for another year. JJ showed that he had great potential to play and learn the game. However, he also began to exhibit the occurence of nicks and injury and made him a questionable candidate to be resigned to a big contract when he hit FA in a couple of years. At any rate the relative youth and good but not great play of these two players gave the Bills the room to keep them at LT and RT the next year and work for them to continue to develop.

 

3. It bacame obvious in 2002 that Vinky was not up to the job of OL coach.

 

Vinky was made OL coach by buddy GW though he had never performed the job before. In his second year, as he struggled to design protection for the less than mobile Bledsoe and in the wake of GW's first OC Sheppard gettting the can, Vinky's failings were obvious. The situtation for MW was even worse because it was becoming clear that he would need some help in making the transition to LT which is the only position his 4th pick contract makes sense.

 

However, MW's second year saw him staying still in development if not even disgressing a bit.

 

1. He was OK at best but reasonably judged less than productive at RT

 

A. The O went completely south as Kevin Killdrive refused to vary his approach.

B. Worse the Bills replaced the not ready for primetime Vinky with the almost equally inexperienced Ruel from Detroit.

C. Even more bizarrely the Bills decided the "challenge" MW by cutting the Sullivan and instead putting Pacillo in at RG. This proved to be a mistake as MW really needed a vet to teach him beyond his failings as a player, but instead they put him into a position where he was supposed to provide guidance to Pacillo. MW was not nearly good enough to do this and the two of them often ended up staring at each other stupidly with "I thought you had him" body language over a prone Bledsoe after one them was beaten by a stunt.

 

2. JJ continued to make it OK (at best) to give MW another year at RT, but also continued to show that he was not worth a big contract to play LT when he hit FA due to his recurring nicks and injuries.

 

MW's third year saw implosion and a "whistiling in the dark" revival.

 

MW was essentially unprofessional in his reaction to the Grammy who raised him dying before his third season. While his reaction is certainlty understandable for a human being, unfortunately it is not condonable in our economic system where not only were the Bills paying him big bucks. more importantly, his teammates and all Bills fans were depending upon this well-paid publicfigure and he let us all down.

 

On the good side, the Bills had finally gotten a much more experienced OL coach in JMac (who correctly said he was no miracle worker). he did a good carrot and stick job of using a public threat to move MW to guard and also rewarding him with a gameball after a good performance in mid-season to really revive his game to adequate from his meltdown.

 

MW's 4th year saw a performance which made his cut a done deal due to his large contract.

 

Overall, the question for you is if I am correct in agreeing with you that drafting an RT in the 4th slot is simply stupid, why do you feel the Bills did this.

My thought is that they felt that since MW guarded the QB's blindside for a left hander in college, they felt he could make the jump. His combine stats on tests of agility like the shuttle run and subjective demonstrations of him having good (and actually great for such a huge specimen) mobility made this thought not unreasonable.

 

For those who put a lot of stock in their subjective viewing of the college game, MW was a dominant RT there who showed some objective evidence of athleticism that he could be shifted to LT. Perhaps you are smarter that guys that make hundreds of thousands of $ per year from this game and could see that he could not make the shift, but I think it is far more reasonable that the Bills braintrust actually drafted MW with the idea they were drafting their LT of the future.

 

I think it is reasonable for folks to complain their judgment he could not accomplsih this shift was/is better than the professional making the judgments on the draft. However, i do not think it is reasonable at all to feel that the Bills braintrust simply pursued stupid economics and paid LT $ for someone they viewed as an RT. I agree with you they could have had an equally competent RT for much less $.

 

It makes no sense to me that folks are ranting about overpayment for an RT when there is no logical reason the Bills had that in mind.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Do you really think Fat Mike was drafted to play RT? I'm not so sure. I think maybe that he was drafted to play LT eventually, but they were paying him so much jack that they felt they absolutely had to get him on the field immediately. Since he was more comfortable at RT than LT, they plugged him in at RT to minimize his learning curve. (In other words, the pre-draft hype on Fat Mike's ability to trivially flip sides was highly exaggerated.) But the guy never stepped up and never showed any interest in becoming the leader and dominant player they desperately needed. He just floundered around and regressed at RT until it was clear that he was a complete bust.

 

If Donahoe knew Fat Mike would never play LT (Teague and Jennings, both of whom had experience at LT, were the options), then this pick takes on a whole other level of suspicion. Why the hell would a "genius GM" draft a RT at #4 (and even though that spot was very capably manned the season before) in the draft when his team had holes all over the roster? Maybe Arm's accusation that Donahoe didn't really have a plan starts to take on some more meaning.

[BADOLBILZ]

So by your logic drafting a RT made no sense and left tackle was locked up, which would mean no McKinney either.

 

Tell me again why you are trolling in the Williams vs. McKinney thread? 

611594[/snapback]

 

Your response is what I call "the insanity plea".

 

Everyone has their own way of dealing with defeat. Like for instance, Pyrite Gal, who says "she" was wrong, but for ALL THE RIGHT REASONS, when in reality the reasons were not well founded and are actually the reason "she" was on the wrong side of the argument to begin with.

[yall]

Your response is what I call "the insanity plea".

 

Everyone has their own way of dealing with defeat.  Like for instance, Pyrite Gal, who says "she" was wrong, but for ALL THE RIGHT REASONS, when in reality the reasons were not well founded and are actually the reason "she" was on the wrong side of the argument to begin with.

611837[/snapback]

 

 

I'd like to see the posts from Apr 02, to see where everyone stood on our picks at the time...

 

It's real easy to say something was a good or bad decision in retrospect.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I'm no expert.  I just remember watching film of both McKinnie and Mike Williams (chest) prior to the draft, and I remember being struck by how Williams (chest) would just punish defenders on running plays - Williams (chest) would play past the whistle, continuing to pin down and beat the hell out of guys twenty yards downfield on running plays.  By contrast, McKinnie struck me as somewhat unathletic and stiff, preferring to swallow up passrushers with his arms rather than shift his legs and weight.  I remember thinking that wouldn't bode well for his play against speedrushers in the NFL, something that has proven to be true.

 

But who was Fat Mike pancaking and pushing around? Was it some 210 pound freshman from Northeastern Central Tulsa Tech and Military Academy? If so, then who cares? Did Fat Mike actually go against the Dwight Freeney's of the day, ever? If so, was he pancaking them? I have no idea.

 

This thread should be entitled, "How did the Bengals outsmart everyone else and have Levi Jones at the top of their board?"

611805[/snapback]

 

Exactly. That is the question. The Bills need to make this fix as well. Stop drafting guys "everyone knows will be good" and draft guys that will be good.

[BADOLBILZ]

If Donahoe knew Fat Mike would never play LT (Teague and Jennings, both of whom had experience at LT, were the options), then this pick takes on a whole other level of suspicion.  Why the hell would a "genius GM" draft a RT at #4 (and even though that spot was very capably manned the season before) in the draft when his team had holes all over the roster?  Maybe Arm's accusation that Donahoe didn't really have a plan starts to take on some more meaning. 

611835[/snapback]

 

A strange pattern in many of Donahoe's high picks is that there were multiple reasons not to draft these guys at that point. We've discussed Williams. McGahee is not that much better. RB's can be found at any point of the draft. Willis had just had his knee WRECKED. The Bills already had a 1400 yard rusher. It made no sense, and the truth is he just got half lucky. Wills made it back, but he isn't the explosive breakaway runner they thought they were getting. Then of course, Roscoe and Reed. Time and again, Donahoe seemed to outsmart himself with his cutesy picks.

[Coach Tuesday]

But who was Fat Mike pancaking and pushing around?  Was it some 210 pound freshman from Northeastern Central Tulsa Tech and Military Academy?  If so, then who cares?  Did Fat Mike actually go against the Dwight Freeney's of the day, ever?  If so, was he pancaking them?  I have no idea.

611850[/snapback]

 

No the point isn't who he was pushing around - the point is the effort and intensity he demonstrated on film in college, which he simply abandoned once he became a pro. It happens - there are some guys who just don't love the game that much and are content to collect a few years of huge paychecks. Hopefully he's invested it well.