Mike Williams or McKinnie

[BADOLBILZ]

Nope.  You have it wrong. Most scouts, media, and fans had Williams going above McKinney. My point was that TD did not do something that seemed crazy or stupid at the time. It's what makes Williams a bust. Everyone thought he was a better pick than McKinney.

 

http://football.about.com/od/mockdrafthist...bl_2002mock.htm

 

http://archive.profootballweekly.com/conte...raft_042002.asp

 

And my favorite:

 

http://www.bootlegsports.com/cgi-bin/bs3co...file=nfl-draftw

 

Most likely to live up to expectations - Mike Williams, OT, Texas - Williams saw his stock rise higher than Bryant "Mount" McKinnie in the weeks leading up to the draft and rightfully so. He can play on either side of the line and is polished enough to step in and start for Buffalo. If there's such thing as a nimble 375 pounder, than Williams is it. Buffalo is expecting Williams to anchor their line next season, and with his excellent ability against the pass and the run, Williams will no doubt be up to the task.

 

I'm sure I could find more mock drafts, and maybe even a few with McKinney going higher, but the point is that most had Williams going higher. Combine that with McKinney being kind of a jerk, and TD's initial decision didn't look bad.

 

(Please don't think of me as some TD apologist, I'm glad he is gone. But just because he was a jerk didn't mean he should have been able to see into the future and predict that the guy viewed as the best lineman in the 2002 draft would turn out to be a lazy SOB.)

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Bill was right. You are talking about something completely different. RT is not a position drafted top 5. The lesson here is don't get paralysis by analysis. On the field, McKinnie was clearly the better player than Williams. McKinnie was a very high profile player, he dominated everyone including Dwight Freeney in a much publicized matchup. Basically, people spent a lot of time deciding why NOT to take McKinnie and Mike Williams was the beneficiary. Williams really was a postseason climber, his gains had nothing to do with what he did on the field.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Bill was right.  You are talking about something completely different.  RT is not a position drafted top 5.  The lesson here is don't get paralysis by analysis.  On the field, McKinnie was clearly the better player than Williams.  McKinnie was a very high profile player, he dominated everyone including Dwight Freeney in a much publicized matchup.  Basically, people spent a lot of time deciding why NOT to take McKinnie and Mike Williams was the beneficiary.  Williams really was a postseason climber, his gains had nothing to do with what he did on the field.

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Speaking of which, I never really saw much of Mike "BUST" Williams at Texas. Did you? Was he really all that dominant? Or did people just get all bug-eyed over him when they took out the scales, measuring tape, and stopwatch? I remember some people going bonkers about Leonard Davis prior to Fat Mike, but at least Davis seemed to have a bit of a vicious streak at times.

[Simon]

Two words people: Scotty Bowman.

Yeah, thank gawd we got rid of that idiot too; right before he went out and won 5 more Cups with two different franchises and went into the HOF.

[GG]

Yeah, thank gawd we got rid of that idiot too; right  before he went out and won 5 more Cups with two different franchises and went into the HOF. 

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Damn you beat me to the easiest set up line this week.

 

Funny, I was going to bring up Bowman as a parallel to TD, and that things just didn't work out for Scottie here. Interesting that Barrasso & Andreychuck became key contributors to their teams' Cup runs down the road, and were "busts" here.

[Simon]

Funny, I was going to bring up Bowman as a parallel to TD, and that things just didn't work out for Scottie here. Interesting that Barrasso & Andreychuck became key contributors to their teams' Cup runs down the road, and were "busts" here.

Really interesting when you consider that Bowman was running the Pens personell when they won 2 Cups w/ Massho1e Barrasso.

There is some parallel here but I think Bowman's situation was much more extreme. He'd experienced even more success than Donahoe before coming to Buffalo and in all likelihood will have experienced even more after leaving when it's all said and done.

Cya

[BoondckCL]

As i remember it, Roy Williams only wanted to play for Dallas. He said it in an interview. Bryant McKinnie is a better pass blocker than Mike Williams and the only thing he has over Mike Williams is that he is still on a team.

 

The guy Buffalo should've drafted was Levi Jones. I was at the draft when the Bengals took him with their pick in the first round and everybody in the crowd laughed.

 

Looks like the jokes on us, Jones is on a playoff calibor team and still has a bright future ahead of him.

[Pyrite Gal]

Bill was right.  You are talking about something completely different.  RT is not a position drafted top 5.  The lesson here is don't get paralysis by analysis.  On the field, McKinnie was clearly the better player than Williams.  McKinnie was a very high profile player, he dominated everyone including Dwight Freeney in a much publicized matchup.  Basically, people spent a lot of time deciding why NOT to take McKinnie and Mike Williams was the beneficiary.  Williams really was a postseason climber, his gains had nothing to do with what he did on the field.

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If you are looking for someone who has defended MW on this board to back down from this then pick me!

 

Though trading down looked by far like the best thing for the Bills to do given that folks like Harrington (a definte loser so far), McKinnie (another definite loser so far) and MW (amother definite loser for the Bills as they cut him) I think it would be false and illogical for anyone to not recognize that past hope/calls to give MW a chance were simply wrong.

 

What also strikes me as false or illogical however is for folks to try to jusify this by looking beyond the simple reality of claiming MW did not play anywhere near well enough to justify his contract but to make a claim that McKinnie was an obviously better choice.

 

MW was a bad choice but based on his career it seems pretty clear that McKinnie would have been a bad choice as well for the Bills.

 

He clearly had demonstrated he is an idiot with:

 

1. His initial holdout

2. His actions on the Vikes sex party boat

3. His arrest for some driving/drinking charge.

 

I have not seen much of him but some film highlights (and lowlights) so please correct me if someone has seen him and he looks great as a Pro, but his first year was as best as I can tell a loss because of his holdout.

 

His second year featured the usual struggles of a first time full year player and was actually not as productive as MW's first two years blocking for a pretty good O his first year and for 1200 yards for Henry in an ineffective O his second year. MW had real pass pro issue his second year for us as he and his colleague Pacillo could not coordinate to save their lives or the far less than mobile Bledsoe running a predictable K. Killdrive O he refused to vary even though clearly opponents had caught on to its tendenicies.

 

I do not know what McKinnie's thrid year was like because I had already stopped paying attention to this fool. MW had a year which was the worst of times (his unprofessional meltdown when the Grammy who raised him died in the off-season but he played what many observers felt was his best ball as a Bill as the season went on and the streak began and he even got a gameball for one sackfree game.

 

I think a lot of the hosannas come from a coparison between the two this year and though MW showed up for camp in the best shape of his fat life he clearly did not remain healthy or get the job done and deserved to be cut. McKinnie had what apparently was his best year as a pro (though this may not be saying much)/ However, it is not like his worked helped produce an offense for MN that was anything but marginally adequate at best.

 

In addition, i have not heard any logical explanation of why better play by McKinnie this year was not better explained by him having less of a need to hold blocks for an experienced Brad Johnson than for a scrambler Culpepper.

 

MW certainly sucks and good riddance to him being way to much way overpaid, but there simply has been little more than unsubstantiated and intensely epidsodic claims that McKinnie was a better choice to make. There have even been some rumors of MN thinking of also letting BM go and this would not be surprising given all I have heard about him.

 

If you have other facts I would love to know.

[KRT88]

Not true. TD was all over Harrington, but the Lions crossed him up, so he went with an overweight RT with a history of at least 1 serious injury.

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Talk about revisionist history.

 

Almost all the draft experts thought the Bills made the right pick in 2002. Stop making it look like the Bills screwed up. Williams just does not have the heart to play in the NFL at the level needed to be a stud. Williams is an NFL players but nothing special, last year he couldn't get it done because he got hurt and at 360 pound his body couldn't heal.

 

I'd love to have Williams in the Bills jersey at 1 million a year but not at a cap figure of 10 + million.

 

First round and top 10 bust happen all the time, stop whining and move on because the Bills have.

[yall]

Bill was right.  You are talking about something completely different.  RT is not a position drafted top 5.  The lesson here is don't get paralysis by analysis.  On the field, McKinnie was clearly the better player than Williams.  McKinnie was a very high profile player, he dominated everyone including Dwight Freeney in a much publicized matchup.  Basically, people spent a lot of time deciding why NOT to take McKinnie and Mike Williams was the beneficiary.  Williams really was a postseason climber, his gains had nothing to do with what he did on the field.

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No, you are both missing the point. The title of the thread is "Mike Williams or McKinnie". Most draft analysts said that Williams was a better pick and that he could play RT or LT due to his size, speed, and athletic ability. That was my point which seems to have eluded you both. I'm not saying I liked the pick, that in retrospect it was a good pick, or anything of the sort.

 

He was supposed to be the better football player. He was not. Not by a longshot. This is what makes him a bust. If he had not been considered the better player, it would have merely been a stupid pick.

[Fezmid]

I remember Williams being interviewed on ESPN a couple days before the draft and he said he didn't want to come to Buffalo. I also remember saying on draft day that the Bills should draft anybody but Williams. Guess I was right and TD was wrong. That makes the score EVERYONE ELSE 6,789 TD 0

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You're thinking Roy Williams, not Mike Williams.

[Fezmid]

You are correct. No one should judge TD on the MW pick alone.

 

He should be judged on this: 5 seasons, 31-49 record, 0 playoff appearances, 4th worst team in the NFL over this timespan (ahead of Lions, Cards, and Texans).

 

Whether or not us Bills fans have become "whiny bitches," TD was fired because he sucked at what he did.

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But... I thought the 31-49 record was because of Bledsoe?! Or is it the "cool" thing to just throw that number around about anyone we don't like?

 

I think Shelton sucks! We're 31-49 with him!!! CUT HIM NOW!!!!

 

CW

[bluenews]

You're thinking Roy Williams, not Mike Williams.

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I think Roy Williams was still coaching at Kansas and has since taken over the North Carolina Tar Heels. I'm not sure, but I think they won the National Championship last April.

[Quester74]

But it was only ONE PICK.

 

Let's take a look at two of TD's other draft gems, shall we?

 

Roscoe Parrish

Ron Edwards

 

Don't even get me started on FAs.

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Speaking of FA's.. anyone remember Eddie Robinson making Vinny Testeverde look like Mike Vick, on his way to the endzone? In a nutshell: Vinny runs left, Eddie's gonna beat him to the corner, Vinny fakes right, Eddie drops his jockstrap and falls to the ground.. Jets TD.

[yall]

I think Roy Williams was still coaching at Kansas and has since taken over the North Carolina Tar Heels.  I'm not sure, but I think they won the National Championship last April.

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I didn't see a smiley, so I'm not sure if you were joking. Another Roy Williams was drafted by Dallas with the 8th pick in the 2002 draft.

 

http://www.infoplease.com/ipsa/A0903232.html

[Coach Tuesday]

Speaking of FA's..  anyone remember Eddie Robinson making Vinny Testeverde look like Mike Vick, on his way to the endzone? In a nutshell: Vinny runs left, Eddie's gonna beat him to the corner, Vinny fakes right, Eddie drops his jockstrap and falls to the ground.. Jets TD.

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That was Pennington.

[Lori]

That was Pennington.

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Yup. Even Coach Robinson could've caught Testaverde.

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

Really interesting when you consider that Bowman was running the Pens personell when they won 2 Cups w/ Massho1e Barrasso.

There is some parallel here but I think Bowman's situation was much more extreme. He'd experienced even more success than Donahoe before coming to Buffalo and in all likelihood will have experienced even more after leaving when it's all said and done.

Cya

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All good points, but I still think the parallel is worth considering. Not because I am saying that Buffalo made a mistake letting either man go (Bowman was not as good a GM as he thought; his later success came with him mostly just behind the bench again, and TD took too many risks that did not pan out), but rather because I think both cases show that there is no such thing in sports as a "genius guarantee." Success in one place, even over time, is a sign that a person has skills, and also had some good fortune. (Jiri Dudacek might have been Alexander Mogilny avant la lettre, for example, but in 1981 the iron curtain was less permeable; Mike Williams looked good on paper, but was really the Sta-Puff Marshmallow Man). Thus, hiring the "big name" guarantees nothing but a few years of "wait, wait, he has earned our patience..." Sometimes it works out, more often it does not.

 

I have another metaphor for you all: The Bill Parcells Curve of Diminishing Returns, viz:

Giants: 2 Super Bowl Championships

Patriots: 1 Super Bowl visit, no championships

Jets: No Super Bowl visits, 1 Conference Championship game

Cowgirls (thus far): No championship game visits, 1 Playoff appearance,

 

Is Parcells a good coach? Certainly. An excellent football mind? I will grudgingly agree. But he also benefited from having a few great players at the right time (LT, for one) and also had the cards fall for him at the right time (who knew Hostetler would hold onto the ball in the end zone, or that Stephen Baker would become Mr. Untackle-able?). In later jobs, a little less fortuna with the draft or in certain games, and the results have declined. I figure if he leaves Dallas in a few years (with no more playoff visits if the pattern holds), the next team to hire Parcells has a good chance of one over-.500 season....

 

One could conduct a similar study on Jimmy Johnson, whose genius quotient dropped quite a bit when he was no longer coaching Aikman, Irvin, and Smith... but I do not want to wander in to Pyrite-iana with lengthy posts.

 

[Disclaimer: I am a historian, so this is not a prediction of the future, but an analysis of the past that should help students understand the present and possibilities for the future.]

 

Go Bills!

[Lori]

One could conduct a similar study on Jimmy Johnson, whose genius quotient dropped quite a bit when he was no longer coaching Aikman, Irvin, and Smith... but I do not want to wander in to Pyrite-iana with lengthy posts.

 

[Disclaimer: I am a historian, so this is not a prediction of the future, but an analysis of the past that should help students understand the present and possibilities for the future.]

 

Go Bills!

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I remain convinced that PP-FS JJ's success was the product of the Herschel Walker trade. Good coach? Yes. Great coach? No "great" coach goes out by getting hammered 62-7 in a playoff game.

[Fan in San Diego]

All of the pundits at the time thought that MW was the safer and better pick. Hindsight is 20/20 vision.

 

Not to defend TD, because he whiffed on alot of picks. But let's at least have the facts straight.

[Sisyphean Bills]

All of the pundits at the time thought that MW was the safer and better pick. Hindsight is 20/20 vision.

 

Not to defend TD, because he whiffed on alot of picks. But let's at least have the facts straight.

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This is true. Donahoe was not the only guy sold on Mike The Bust Williams.

 

I just wonder what were the indications that Mike was going to be a bust. Every player has their positives and negatives. Mike had a good personality, ballerina feet from some square dancing class he took, and was a gigantic guy. His size was attributed to him being "coated in baby fat" (not muscle), he had a bad knee, and he played RT not LT. The positives won out over the negatives in this pick, but the negatives won out over the positives in his play.