Great article

[Beerball]

Exactly right!  If one insists on starting and ending the TD story with assessment of one issue (if one insists on this then you insist on being WRONG because winning is not about a decision(s) in one area of team building, its about how you get decisions in multiple areas (the draft, FAs, contract negotiations, teaching and development, coaching game decisions, etc. to all fit together) then one should foolishly focus on the coaching selection issues rather than the draft.

 

The 2002 draft was by far TD's worst, but even this one contained a number of decisions which were quite reasonable choices at the time (trading down was the best way to handle the #4 as the worthwhile picks like Freeney could have been taken lower and if the Bills had pulled off the same results as they did when TD traded down in 2001 it would have been great- he cllearly was capable of doing it as he did it the year before but it takes two to tango to trade).  This draft analysis is detailed but leaves out key facts that you think a detailed analysis would note:

 

1. McKinnie is soild mostly because he is adequate with MN in their troubled set-up and he had mucho problems from the start.  MW is a clear bust, but it is by no means a sure thing that McKinnie will not also prove to be a bust in real terms of would have been if the Bills took him and subjected him to development by Vinklarek and Ruel.

 

2. Reed's career can be dismissed to this point as an unproductive player on an unproductive team.  However, he did look very good his first year and few to no one really second-guessed credibly his play making it reasonable to allow PP to walk.  Again when one takes into account the full story rather than insisting on incorrectly only focusing on the draft, PP's real world non-production with AT that gave the Bills a 1st with which they chose McGahee was probably one of the best pieces of work done by TD.

 

3. A real analysis of the Denney pick needs to take into account the reality of the Bills having a desperate need at DE (as shown by them having to pick Kelsay the next year not simply because Denney was not good enough but because we badly needed another DL player to actually run a rotation).  One can argue that Denney was not worthy of being the first DE taken in a draft that needed a DE and one would be right.  However, the reality is that since the Bills had such a primary need on OL and no DE was near worth a #4 pick then the question is whether Denny is worth your second pick.

 

He was not but what other DE at the time was and the Bills again did not trade down for him as would have matched his worth, they instead took a WR who many had going in the first who actually produced his rookie year to make this look like a good move.

 

The question whether given reality Denney was worth your third pick or trading up for him.  This was not an unreasonable choice to make in my view.

 

All in all, I think TD deserved to be fired, but his drafting, even looking at the sorry results of his 2002 draft do not effectively make this case.  What makes the case for firing him is:

 

1. His clear poor decision-making in the real world as he chose the had to be fired GW over the SB reaching Fox and the incredibly productive with Cincy Lewis.

 

2. Further, GW hired under TD, the had to be fired Sheppard, the idiots Vinky and Ruel, and needed LeBeau to be brought in to resurrect the D. Replacing Sheppard with Gilbride was simply a move from bad to momentarily good but eventually worse.

 

3. Finally, he chose MM to replace GW but the entire thing melted down this season costing TD )andMM by resignation) their jobs.

 

This draft analysis is interestng, but in the end full of sound and fury and signifying little.

605794[/snapback]

Holy Moly did I miss FFS's reincarnation?

[Dan Gross]

Holy Moly did I miss FFS's reincarnation?

605801[/snapback]

 

I was just thinking the same thing, and trying to figure out what "fool's gold" has to do with Dick Jauron, except that maybe the "fool" is Marv, and Jauron looked golden to him...or maybe something referring to the "golden boys" (I preferred Geritol Twins myself ) reference...Ah, yes, Pyrite Gal="Fool's Golden Girl"...

[34-78-83]

I was just thinking the same thing, and trying to figure out what "fool's gold" has to do with Dick Jauron, except that maybe the "fool" is Marv, and Jauron looked golden to him...or maybe something referring to the "golden boys" (I preferred Geritol Twins myself ) reference...Ah, yes, Pyrite Gal="Fool's Golden Girl"...

605812[/snapback]

 

... and I thought I had missed the memo or something

[Pete]

Well now we know of at least one official "coulda, shoulda, woulda" fan. Nice job at a public admission.

605639[/snapback]

I too lobbied for either Roy Williams or Bryant Mckinnie. I liked the Josh Reed pick at the time but I dont have all TDs tools at my disposable. True you could always play should of, could of but the fact is we drafted the same positions pointed out in the article and our evaluations were off.

 

Mike Williams over Bryant Mckinnie and Lecharles Bentley(whom we should be at the top of our off season priority list IMO)

Ryan Denney and a second round pick over Alex Brown in the 4th

Josh Reed over Deion Branch, Antonio Bryant

 

 

We had 4th pick overall in a very talented draft and got garbage. Just a horrible !@#$up on TDs part

[2003Contenders]

I too lobbied for either Roy Williams or Bryant Mckinnie. I liked the Josh Reed pick at the time but I dont have all TDs tools at my disposable.  True you could always play should of, could of but the fact is we drafted the same positions pointed out in the article and our evaluations were off.

 

Mike Williams over Bryant Mckinnie and Lecharles Bentley(whom we should be at the top of our off season priority list IMO)

Ryan Denney and a second round pick over Alex Brown in the 4th

Josh Reed over Deion Branch, Antonio Bryant

We had 4th pick overall in a very talented draft and got garbage.  Just a horrible !@#$up on TDs part

605941[/snapback]

 

 

Not really. That 2002 draft was actually pretty weak. In fact, the only player out of the top 5 selections to merit such a pick was Julius Peppers -- and everyone tabbed him as a can't miss prospect.

 

1. David Carr (TBD)

2. J Peppers (Great pick)

3. J Harrington (Bust)

4. M Williams (Bust)

5. Q Jammer (Bust)

 

So, yes, TD crapped the bed on that draft -- but then again, so did many other teams.

[The Dean]

I was just thinking the same thing, and trying to figure out what "fool's gold" has to do with Dick Jauron, except that maybe the "fool" is Marv, and Jauron looked golden to him...or maybe something referring to the "golden boys" (I preferred Geritol Twins myself ) reference...Ah, yes, Pyrite Gal="Fool's Golden Girl"...

605812[/snapback]

 

 

WOW. Yvel sure is getting cute.

 

[Pyrite Gal]

I was just thinking the same thing, and trying to figure out what "fool's gold" has to do with Dick Jauron, except that maybe the "fool" is Marv, and Jauron looked golden to him...or maybe something referring to the "golden boys" (I preferred Geritol Twins myself ) reference...Ah, yes, Pyrite Gal="Fool's Golden Girl"...

605812[/snapback]

Bimgo!

[The Dean]

Bimgo!

605971[/snapback]

 

 

Could you expand on that?

 

NEVER MIND!

[Pete]

Not really. That 2002 draft was actually pretty weak. In fact, the only player out of the top 5 selections to merit such a pick was Julius Peppers -- and everyone tabbed him as a can't miss prospect.

 

1. David Carr (TBD)

2. J Peppers (Great pick)

3. J Harrington (Bust)

4. M Williams (Bust)

5. Q Jammer (Bust)

 

So, yes, TD crapped the bed on that draft -- but then again, so did many other teams.

605958[/snapback]

lots of great players in that draft- Ed Reed, Dwight Freeney, Javon Walker, John Henderson, Albert Haynesworth, Jeremy Shockey, Ryan Sims, Levi Jones, Charles Grant, Clinton Portis, Doug Jolley, Randel El, Brian Westbrook, Deshawn Foster, Randy Mcmichael, Najeh Davenport, etc- to come away with nothing with such high draft postition is pathetic

[Orton's Arm]

lots of great players in that draft- Ed Reed, Dwight Freeney, Javon Walker, John Henderson, Albert Haynesworth, Jeremy Shockey, Ryan Sims, Levi Jones, Charles Grant, Clinton Portis, Doug Jolley, Randel El, Brian Westbrook, Deshawn Foster, Randy Mcmichael, Najeh Davenport, etc- to come away with nothing with such high draft postition is pathetic

605997[/snapback]

Exactly. It's not like TD merely missed on the Mike Williams pick, only to make up for it later on in the draft. He walked away with basically nothing for the entire draft.

[Kelly the Dog]

lots of great players in that draft- Ed Reed, Dwight Freeney, Javon Walker, John Henderson, Albert Haynesworth, Jeremy Shockey, Ryan Sims, Levi Jones, Charles Grant, Clinton Portis, Doug Jolley, Randel El, Brian Westbrook, Deshawn Foster, Randy Mcmichael, Najeh Davenport, etc- to come away with nothing with such high draft postition is pathetic

605997[/snapback]

Sorry. Not from that group. Any draft that lists its 16 top players and four years later, amongst them are Doug Jolley and Ryan Sims and Najeh Davenport, is an abysmal draft of historic incompetence.

[Orton's Arm]

Sorry. Not from that group. Any draft that lists its 16 top players and four years later, amongst them are Doug Jolley and Ryan Sims and Najeh Davenport, is an abysmal draft of historic incompetence.

606017[/snapback]

I disagree. Just about all drafts have early first round picks that turn into busts.

[Kelly the Dog]

I disagree. Just about all drafts have early first round picks that turn into busts.

606032[/snapback]

But, of course, those weren't all first round picks. Randel-El was the last pick of the 2nd. Doug Jolley the last pick of the fourth. McMichael in the fourth. Westbrook in the 3rd. He was taking about the entire draft.

[Lori]

Sorry. Not from that group. Any draft that lists its 16 top players and four years later, amongst them are Doug Jolley and Ryan Sims and Najeh Davenport, is an abysmal draft of historic incompetence.

606017[/snapback]

Thanks, KTD. Glad it wasn't just me thinking, "... Ryan Sims? Did he get good all of a sudden?"

[GG]

But, of course, those weren't all first round picks. Randel-El was the last pick of the 2nd. Doug Jolley the last pick of the fourth. McMichael in the fourth. Westbrook in the 3rd. He was taking about the entire draft.

606055[/snapback]

 

Don't pick on the guy because he chose to use bad examples to illustrate a valid point. The 2002 draft was one of the deeper drafts, if not stocked with superstars.

 

I'll revert to my standard beef- it wasn't necessarily the selection of MW that gets me, but he idiocy of giving up a valuable 4th Rd pick to get Denney, when you're sitting on a 3-13 team that's devoid of talent and are in the middle of a deep draft.

 

We may get into our tussle about Bryce Fisher, but that certainly plays into the hindsight analysis. TD must have really thought that Fisher sucked for him to trade up to steal Denney from the grasp of the Steelers.

[The Jokeman]

    Yeah, but the guy was 100% correct. That disaster 2002 draft by TD set this team back untold years. The writer could have gone further in describing TD's idiocy. Do you realize that TD brought in Gilbride, and let him install a run and shoot offense with no blocking?      This alone in terms of building a football team should be regarded as a pinnacle of stupidity.

 

605350[/snapback]

Of course one could argue that Butler's horrid 2000 draft ultimately created the disaster that occured in 2002 minus BIG Mike. As had Erik Flowers/Corey Moore proved to be the pass rushers we wanted them to be we may have never drafted Ryan Denney. Not to mention had Avion Black/Drew Haddad developed into a starting WR we may never had taken Josh Reed. Had Travares Tillman developed as a FS we might have needed to take Coy Wire (I know Coy's a SS). And of course had Leif Larsen showed he could have provided depth at DT we might have never taken Justin Bannan.

[Kelly the Dog]

Don't pick on the guy because he chose to use bad examples to illustrate a valid point.  The 2002 draft was one of the deeper drafts, if not stocked with superstars.

 

I'll revert to my standard beef- it wasn't necessarily the selection of MW that gets me, but he idiocy of giving up a valuable 4th Rd pick to get Denney, when you're sitting on a 3-13 team that's devoid of talent and are in the middle of a deep draft. 

 

We may get into our tussle about Bryce Fisher, but that certainly plays into the hindsight analysis.  TD must have really thought that Fisher sucked for him to trade up to steal Denney from the grasp of the Steelers.

606117[/snapback]

I'm certainly not arguing the point that TD completely and utterly blew the 2002 draft. I believe that is obvious to everyone. I still can argue a stupid post. Hence the phrase, "Not from that group".

[Lurker]

Any idiot can use hindsight

605312[/snapback]

 

Well, that describes the author of this article to a tee.

[Bill from NYC]

Of course one could argue that Butler's horrid 2000 draft ultimately created the disaster that occured in 2002 minus BIG Mike. As had Erik Flowers/Corey Moore proved to be the pass rushers we wanted them to be we may have never drafted Ryan Denney. Not to mention had Avion Black/Drew Haddad developed into a starting WR we may never had taken Josh Reed. Had Travares Tillman developed as a FS we might have needed to take Coy Wire (I know Coy's a SS). And of course had Leif Larsen showed he could have provided depth at DT we might have never taken Justin Bannan.

606121[/snapback]

 

The year 2000 was when Mr. Butler drafted Erik Flowers from Arizona St. in round one. With the 7th pick of Round 2, the Pittsburgh Steelers (was TD still in charge?) selected Marvel Smith (LT) from....you guessed it, from Arizona St.!

 

We need a friggin break, wouldn't you say?

[The Jokeman]

The year 2000 was when Mr. Butler drafted Erik Flowers from Arizona St. in round one. With the 7th pick of Round 2, the Pittsburgh Steelers (was TD still in charge?) selected Marvel Smith (LT) from....you guessed it, from Arizona St.!

 

We need a friggin break, wouldn't you say?

606137[/snapback]

TD wasn't in charge. Though Marvel Smith was one I was calling for on the old D&C board. Yet in my mock I vividly thinking we'd pick Darren Howard.