Cheney has executive power?

[Johnny Coli]

Cheney has executive power?

 

Oh Really? (O RLY?)

Cheney says he has the power to declassify data

According to Dick "The Rifleman" Cheney, he has executive power to declassify sensitive government information.

But in the interview, Cheney said an executive order gives him, and President Bush, power to declassify information.

 

“I have certainly advocated declassification. I have participated in declassification decisions,” Cheney said. Asked for details, he said, “I don’t want to get into that. There’s an executive order that specifies who has classification authority, and obviously it focuses first and foremost on the president, but also includes the vice president.”

No kidding?

 

I’m scanning the US Constitution (in particular, Article II), and I don’t see where the Vice President is granted any executive powers. At all. In fact, other than presiding over the Senate, his job is primarily ceremonial, unless something happens to the President and he can't perform the duties of his Office (insert standard Bush is an idiot puppet joke here).

 

Hmmm…

So, it seems “Executive Power” will be the defense against the Sccoter Libbey accusation that good ‘ol Dick leaked him classified pre-war intelligence to then leak to the press to bolster the case for the Iraq war. One also wonders how Dick’s executive order fantasy will play out with regards to Plamegate (Cheney's magical executive power mystery tour).

The indictment against Libby says Cheney advised his chief of staff on June 12, 2003, that the wife of Bush administration critic and former U.S. Ambassador Joseph Wilson worked at the CIA in the counterproliferation division.

 

Libby understood that the vice president had learned this information from the CIA, according to the indictment, which says Libby also learned of Wilson’s wife’s identity from the CIA and the State Department.

 

On July 14, 2003, the CIA identity of Valerie Plame — the maiden name of Wilson’s wife — was published by columnist Robert Novak. Eight days earlier, Wilson had accused the administration of twisting prewar intelligence to exaggerate the Iraqi threat. Wilson concluded it was highly doubtful that a purported sale of uranium yellowcake by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990s had ever taken place.

New court papers suggest Plame still had covert status. Newsweek, Feb 13th.

 

It’s certainly been an entertaining couple of days for The Rifleman. Here's to a couple of more months. I wonder what clamoring would have erupted from the Right had Al Gore claimed he had authority to leak classified information.

 

 

 

Addendum:

Before hitting “submit”, I did another fact search. Lo and behold it looks like Dubya signed the executive order giving Cheney powers (Giving away power like it was a National Forest or something).

I go from unbelieving shock, to anger (and I’m not going to delete the previous body of this post because I think it kicks ass…so there).

Throughout Executive Order 13292, there are changes to the original Clinton order which, in effect, give the vice president the power of the president in dealing with classified material. In the original Clinton executive order, for example, there appeared the following passage:

 

Classification Authority.

(a) The authority to classify information originally may be exercised only by:

(1) the President;

(2) agency heads and officials designated by the President in the Federal Register...

 

In the Bush order, that section was changed to this (emphasis added):

 

Classification Authority.

(a) The authority to classify information originally may be exercised only by:

(1) the President and, in the performance of executive duties, the Vice President;

(2) agency heads and officials designated by the President in the Federal Register...

 

In another part of the original Clinton order, there was a segment dealing with who was authorized to delegate the authority to classify material. In the Clinton order, the passage read:

 

(2) "Top Secret" original classification authority may be delegated only by the President or by an agency head or official designated...

(3) "Secret" or "Confidential" original classification authority may be delegated only by the President; an agency head or official designated...

 

In the Bush order, that segment was changed to read (emphasis added):

 

(2) "Top Secret" original classification authority may be delegated only by the President; in the performance of executive duties, the Vice President; or an agency head or official designated...

(3) "Secret" or "Confidential" original classification authority may be delegated only by the President; in the performance of executive duties, the Vice President; or an agency head or official designated...

 

Both executive orders contained extension sections defining the terms used in the order. One of those terms was "original classification authority," that is, who in the government has the power to classify documents. In the Clinton order, the definition read:

 

"Original classification authority" means an individual authorized in writing, either by the President, or by agency heads or other officials designated by the President...

 

In the Bush executive order, the definition was changed to read (emphasis added):

 

"Original classification authority" means an individual authorized in writing, either by the President, the Vice President in the performance of executive duties, or by agency heads or other officials designated by the President...

 

Jesus. No one is pissed about this? No one is concerned that not only is this administration playing fast-and-loose with civil liberties, it’s also interpreting the US Constitution to fit it’s own power grab? The irony is, in a couple years Hillary will either be the POTUS or the VPOTUS. I wonder what the “unity executive theory” people will say then?

 

 

Discuss....

[Ghost of BiB]

When a new administration takes office, they can and will shidtcan policy documents of the previous, or keep them - depending on whether they fit their system of doing things. I regularly use Clinton PDD-56 as a reference for some of my work, as it was never rescinded.

 

And, the easiest way to get something done quick, IS to issue a presidential order. It's good to be the King.

 

And FWIW, even I (and about 20 million other people) regularly make classification/declassification decisions on stuff. That's what agency directors approve. I even have to keep statistics on how many classified documents I generate and at what level the classification is, because somebody somewhere keeps track of that, for some reason never explained to me.

[Berg]

When a new administration takes office, they can and will shidtcan policy documents of the previous, or keep them - depending on whether they fit their system of doing things. I regularly use Clinton PDD-56 as a reference for some of my work, as it was never rescinded.

 

And, the easiest way to get something done quick, IS to issue a presidential order. It's good to be the King.

 

And FWIW, even I (and about 20 million other people) regularly make classification/declassification decisions on stuff. That's what agency directors approve. I even have to keep statistics on how many classified documents I generate and at what level the classification is, because somebody somewhere keeps track of that, for some reason never explained to me.

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BiB,

You and I make derivative decisions about groupings (documents, etc.), but at least I know that I cannot declassify (nor classify) the undelying information. If you have that power, I am impressed.

 

At any rate, I for one am more comfortable with DC making these decisions that I would be with GWB. But that's me.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Cheney has executive power?

 

Oh Really? (O RLY?)

Cheney says he has the power to declassify data

According to Dick "The Rifleman" Cheney, he has executive power to declassify sensitive government information.

 

No kidding?

 

I’m scanning the US Constitution (in particular, Article II), and I don’t see where the Vice President is granted any executive powers.  At all.  In fact, other than presiding over the Senate, his job is primarily ceremonial, unless something happens to the President and he can't perform the duties of his Office (insert standard Bush is an idiot puppet joke here).

 

Hmmm…

So, it seems “Executive Power” will be the defense against the Sccoter Libbey accusation that good ‘ol Dick leaked him classified pre-war intelligence to then leak to the press to bolster the case for the Iraq war.  One also wonders how Dick’s executive order fantasy will play out with regards to Plamegate (Cheney's magical executive power mystery tour).

 

New court papers suggest Plame still had covert status.  Newsweek, Feb 13th.

 

It’s certainly been an entertaining couple of days for The Rifleman.  Here's to a couple of more months.  I wonder what clamoring would have erupted from the Right had Al Gore claimed he had authority to leak classified information.

Addendum:

Before hitting “submit”, I did another fact search.  Lo and behold it looks like Dubya signed the executive order giving Cheney powers (Giving away power like it was a National Forest or something).

I go from unbelieving shock, to anger (and I’m not going to delete the previous body of this post because I think it kicks ass…so there).

Jesus.  No one is pissed about this?  No one is concerned that not only is this administration playing fast-and-loose with civil liberties, it’s also interpreting the US Constitution to fit it’s own power grab?  The irony is, in a couple years Hillary will either be the POTUS or the VPOTUS.  I wonder what the “unity executive theory” people will say then?

Discuss....

604809[/snapback]

 

Technically, nothing you've said implies Cheney has executive powers. It does say, however, that the executive, by executive order, has granted him certain powers, which is both different and permissible. As far as I know, the executive can issue an executive order that grants ME the authority to declassify information - it would be stupid, and he'd catch flak for it, of course, but I know of nothing that prohibits it.

 

And the Constitution doesn't grant authority regarding classification of information either way. I don't see how you can argue a constitutional abuse of power for something that isn't even remotely covered in the Constitution.

[Johnny Coli]

Technically, nothing you've said implies Cheney has executive powers.  It does say, however, that the executive, by executive order, has granted him certain powers, which is both different and permissible.  As far as I know, the executive can issue an executive order that grants ME the authority to declassify information - it would be stupid, and he'd catch flak for it, of course, but I know of nothing that prohibits it.

 

And the Constitution doesn't grant authority regarding classification of information either way.  I don't see how you can argue a constitutional abuse of power for something that isn't even remotely covered in the Constitution.

604856[/snapback]

What is your interpretation of "the Vice President in the performance of executive duties" then?

[Ghost of BiB]

BiB,

You and I make derivative decisions about groupings (documents, etc.), but at least I know that I cannot declassify (nor classify) the undelying information.  If you have that power, I am impressed.

 

At any rate, I for one am more comfortable with DC making these decisions that I would be with GWB.  But that's me.

604855[/snapback]

 

Yeah, but we recommend. I'm certain you do too, in the case of original material. Does your boss do the homework part himself? If so - I'm impressed. I am also referring to original documents, not derivative decisions based on other documents. Where I'm at, it's not an unusual situation. I didn't mean to imply that I had any authority. It's just been my experience that one can get scolded for submitting something higher (and I'm speaking to original documents as well as derivatives) without every paragraph and sub appropriately marked. It's just how things work. If it didn't, directors would have no time to do anything BUT review documents. That's also why we have classification guidelines.

 

Also, I think it's within some directors charters in some agencies that they can delegate a lot of this, depending on the classification level to lower division directors and stuff.

 

I do catch what you're saying, though about underlying material. When quoting a reference - the classification of the reference becomes the classification of the document. I run into situations though where a compilation of unclassified stuff put together collectively can become classified because it fits certain guidelines. By the same token, referencing a small part of the compilation can reduce or eliminate the classification - and it's best to make the recommendation accordingly.

 

I wouldn't WANT the actual authority.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

What is your interpretation of "the Vice President in the performance of executive duties" then?

604872[/snapback]

 

Screw "interpretation". I'll tell you exactly what it means:

 

Throughout Executive Order 13292, there are changes to the original Clinton order which, in effect, give the vice president the power of the president in dealing with classified material

 

It means the the Vice President, in declassifying material, is acting with the executive authority of the President as granted to him in the changes to Executive Order 13292. Which is pretty much what I said: the President via executive order authorized the VP to act with Presidential executive authority concerning the classification and declassification of data.

 

As for the Constitutional issue...I don't think it is. I don't think (but I'll have to look to be sure) the Constitution forbids the President delegating his executive authority to others; I'm damned sure it doesn't forbid executive orders themselves. But if it DOES prohibit or restrict delegation of executive authority...well, that would mean that our government as it operates now is SEVERELY unconstitutional.

 

And frankly, I think you're looking at the wrong issue anyway. The issue isn't Cheney so much as the executive order that grants him the power, and...

 

1) Is the executive order even legal? There are laws that govern the handling of classified information; I don't know how such laws are written or enforced, but it's not outside the realm of possibility that the president can't arbitrarily decide who can and cannot declassify information. And, more frighteningly...

 

2) If there's an executive order delegating these executive powers...what other powers are delegated in other executive orders we don't know about?

[Chef Jim]

When a new administration takes office, they can and will shidtcan policy documents of the previous, or keep them - depending on whether they fit their system of doing things. I regularly use Clinton PDD-56 as a reference for some of my work, as it was never rescinded.

 

And, the easiest way to get something done quick, IS to issue a presidential order. It's good to be the King.

 

even I regularly make classification/declassification decisions on stuff.

604848[/snapback]

 

Brrrrr, is it me or did a cold chill just run through the room?

[Berg]

Yeah, but we recommend. I'm certain you do too, in the case of original material. Does your boss do the homework part himself? If so - I'm impressed. I am also referring to original documents, not derivative decisions based on other documents. Where I'm at, it's not an unusual situation. I didn't mean to imply that I had any authority. It's just been my experience that one can get scolded for submitting something higher (and I'm speaking to original documents as well as derivatives) without every paragraph and sub appropriately marked. It's just how things work. If it didn't, directors would have no time to do anything BUT review documents. That's also why we have classification guidelines.

 

Hehe, good point. By derivative, I just meant that I'm not deciding if something is classified, I'm just using an SCG to determine if it is or isn't. I mostly don't do portion marking just because 90% is classified and it is more pain that its worth to slice up a document so that it can be portion marked in any meaningful manner.

 

Also, I think it's within some directors charters in some agencies that they can delegate a lot of this, depending on the classification level to lower division directors and stuff.

Probably. I never have figured out how that really works (or doesn't).

 

I do catch what you're saying, though about underlying material. When quoting a reference - the classification of the reference becomes the classification of the document. I run into situations though where a compilation of unclassified stuff put together collectively can become classified because it fits certain guidelines. By the same token, referencing a small part of the compilation can reduce or eliminate the classification - and it's best to make the recommendation accordingly.

 

Most of my world is associations and multiple unclassified pieces which add up to classified stuff. That's not much fun, but as long as you work in an open storage SCIF it's not that big of a deal.

 

I wouldn't WANT the actual authority.

604877[/snapback]

 

Me neither.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

When quoting a reference - the classification of the reference becomes the classification of the document.

604877[/snapback]

 

I think that's the first thing I've ever heard come out of the government that's actually sensible.

[Ghost of BiB]

Hehe, good point. By derivative, I just meant that I'm not deciding if something is classified, I'm just using an SCG to determine if it is or isn't. I mostly don't do portion marking just because 90% is classified and it is more pain that its worth to slice up a document so that it can be portion marked in any meaningful manner.

 

We don't have that luxury, as a lot of what we produce becomes the reference for other documents somewhere else. So - everything HAS to be apportioned so it can get lifted piece by piece for whatever someone else is writing. As we both know, 99% of most "TS" documents are not TS. Nor are secret all secret. I'm working on something right now that is 99% nothing, but 2 or 3 sentences screw up the works.

 

Curiosity question. What do you do when working with something "class"

\\rel\\"x" and something else "class"\\rel\\ "y" as references to produce something else, when the original x stuff is not releasable to y and vice versa? I've never figured it out, so I generally blow off those taskers.

[Berg]

We don't have that luxury, as a lot of what we produce becomes the reference for other documents somewhere else. So - everything HAS to be apportioned so it can get lifted piece by piece for whatever someone else is writing. As we both know, 99% of most "TS" documents are not TS. Nor are secret all secret. I'm working on something right now that is 99% nothing, but 2 or 3 sentences screw up the works.

 

Curiosity question. What do you do when working with something "class"

\\rel\\"x" and something else "class"\\rel\\ "y" as references to produce something else, when the original x stuff is not releasable to y and vice versa? I've never figured it out, so I generally blow off those taskers.

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Hmmm. I don't think I've ever run across that situation. I might, however, in my new reserve job. Maybe that's because the releasability is inherent in the "compartment", and I've not handled other than SCI for TS. I don't know, I'm just guessing. Don't you have an SSO or ISSM or some other security goober who would get off on answering that one? That's probably what I would do.

 

On second thought, maybe blowing it off is the best idea....

[Ghost of BiB]

Hmmm.  I don't think I've ever run across that situation.  I might, however, in my new reserve job.  Maybe that's because the releasability is inherent in the "compartment", and I've not handled other than SCI for TS.  I don't know, I'm just guessing.  Don't you have an SSO or ISSM or some other security goober who would get off on answering that one?  That's probably what I would do.

On second thought, maybe blowing it off is the best idea....

604916[/snapback]

 

Not that I can find. Ours reference me back to the same guidelines that don't mention it.

 

When pressed, I usually NOFORN it, and say fugg everybody. I still don't know if that's the right thing to do, but it covers me. Maybe someone else perusing this can point out a reference.

 

Since, like I said a lot of our stuff becomes the basis for someone elses, we very, very rarely in my office have to deal with SCI or SAPs, as far as what we actually produce. You deal a lot more with collections. I deal a lot more with ops - so you'll see a lot more of that secret squirrel stuff than I do.

[Johnny Coli]

And frankly, I think you're looking at the wrong issue anyway.  The issue isn't Cheney so much as the executive order that grants him the power, and...

 

1) Is the executive order even legal?  There are laws that govern the handling of classified information; I don't know how such laws are written or enforced, but it's not outside the realm of possibility that the president can't arbitrarily decide who can and cannot declassify information.  And, more frighteningly...

 

2) If there's an executive order delegating these executive powers...what other powers are delegated in other executive orders we don't know about?  

604880[/snapback]

There is nothing in the Constitution outlining Executive Order power, but there isn't anything saying he can't do it, either. (Wiki-link).

 

From the non-descriptive National Archives link

Executive orders are official documents, numbered consecutively, through which the President of the United States manages the operations of the Federal Government.

Here's a list of Dubya's EOs:

W-EOs

Here's a better link, descibing what they are in better detail, and linking to some articles discussing their controversial nature:

EO explained

Executive Orders (EOs) are legally binding orders given by the President, acting as the head of the Executive Branch, to Federal Administrative Agencies. Executive Orders are generally used to direct federal agencies and officials in their execution of congressionally established laws or policies. However, in many instances they have been used to guide agencies in directions contrary to congressional intent.

[...]

Controversy

Executive Orders are controversial because they allow the President to make major decisions, even law, without the consent of Congress. This, of course, runs against the general logic of the Constitution -- that no one should have power to act unilaterally. Nevertheless, Congress often gives the President considerable leeway in implementing and administering federal law and programs. Sometimes, Congress cannot agree exactly how to implement a law or program. In effect, this leaves the decision to the federal agencies involved and the President that stands at their head. When Congress fails to spell out in detail how a law is to be executed, it leaves the door open for the President to provide those details in the form of Executive Orders.

Like I said...loose and liberal interpretation of Article II, and the power of the EO.

[Ghost of BiB]

Sometimes, Congress cannot agree exactly how to implement a law or program. In effect, this leaves the decision to the federal agencies involved and the President that stands at their head. When Congress fails to spell out in detail how a law is to be executed, it leaves the door open for the President to provide those details in the form of Executive Orders.

 

Which CAN be a good thing. You run across any reference as to how Congress can "go around" or revoke an EO? I deal much more with NSPD's, which as far as I can tell are used to direct and implement policies that aren't already there. I don't think it's Congresses lane to direct policy, anyway.

[stuckincincy]

Good 'ol Bill owns the record...he beat out Jimmy Carter

 

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/c-execorders.html

 

Bill was quite the pardoner, too...

 

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/pardons/

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

There is nothing in the Constitution outlining Executive Order power, but there isn't anything saying he can't do it, either. (Wiki-link). 

 

From the non-descriptive National Archives link

 

Here's a list of Dubya's EOs:

W-EOs

Here's a better link, descibing what they are in better detail, and linking to some articles discussing their controversial nature:

EO explained

 

Like I said...loose and liberal interpretation of Article II, and the power of the EO.

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Okay, so again like I said, the real issue isn't the specific EO that gives Cheney executive authority as much as it is the constitutionality of EO's in general. With which I agree: there certainly are constitutional issues with executive orders concerning separation of powers.

 

So on the one hand, executive orders grant the government more flexibility in responding to events in a world that's become more fast-paced than it was when the Constitution was written (and thus is a perfectly valid argument to the "living document" adherents of the Constitution. Like you. ). On the other hand...yeah, they can clearly be used to step on Congress' toes (which is more a strict constructionist argument. Unlike you. Even though you're making it. ) And I'm content to leave the discussion at that for now, as I don't have an answer. But I certainly admire the problem.

[PastaJoe]

Cheney's had the power ever since he forced Bush to sign the executive orders giving him the right. Remember when they blamed Bush's black eye on choking on a pretzel?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Cheney's had the power ever since he forced Bush to sign the executive orders giving him the right.  Remember when they blamed Bush's black eye on choking on a pretzel?

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Muah

[Johnny Coli]

Good 'ol Bill owns the record...he beat out Jimmy Carter  

 

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/c-execorders.html

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Why don't you use a more current link than March, 2001?

Because if you linked to the actual National Archive, your jab at Clinton whiffs.

Executive Orders Disposition Tables Index: current to 2/7/2006

Dubya, currently 198 in 6 years...~33/yr

Bill, 363 in 8 years...~45/yr

 

Bush senior had 165...~41/yr

 

So Bill has a slight edge than Dubya, currently, and wrote 4 more per year than his predecessor.

 

But if you're looking for a more present-day record, look no further than Ronbo, with 380 EOs for ~48/yr.

 

 

If you want to compare Bill's EOs and Dubya's, let's look at their first nine months (most of Dubya's after September 11 deal primarily with the response for the attack, so to be fair we will only look at January to September)

 

Clinton 1/20-9/11, 1993

28 EOs

Deal primarily with environmental issues, ethics, and believe-it-or-not, cutting the size of the federal government

 

Bush II 1/20-8/17 2001 (it doesn't quite go up to mid-september, because he was on vacation)

24 EOs

His first two establish faith-based initiatives (gotta pander to the people that got you there). The rest are anti-labor, pro-energy in lifting regulations, or amending previous executive orders.

 

 

Boy, what a scumbag Bill was...abusing his power by cutting the federal government, attacking the deficit, and enacting environmentally sound policies.