OnTheRocks Posted September 24, 2004 Posted September 24, 2004 this is not a trick question....just looking for some info. Does a man who is the father of an unborn child have any rights in preventing the woman carrying the child from having an abortion?
OnTheRocks Posted September 24, 2004 Author Posted September 24, 2004 is there any actual written law on this specific topic?
UConn James Posted September 24, 2004 Posted September 24, 2004 Nope. Just like she doesn't have the right to tell him to not get a vasectomy. I honestly don't know where to stand on this issue b/c for every A there's a B. However, there was an interesting case... I'd say five or more years ago, where a man kidnapped the woman and kept her locked up until she could no longer have an abortion. It being time out of mind, I think I remember the judge was sympathetic to the man's plight. Don't know what came of it, tho. is there any actual written law on this specific topic? Roe v. Wade? Try www.findlaw.com
tennesseeboy Posted September 24, 2004 Posted September 24, 2004 Not that I know of. Think of it though. If the father had a say in the abortion decision it would be a two way street. Can a father decide to have an abortion if the mother decides not to have one? Of course not. And he shouldn't. The mother has a right to her body, and a right to make bad choices with it. The state has some legal interest at a point. (Roe v. Wade). The father doesn't, at least not until the child's birth. How would you enforce a right given to the father? Imprison the mother and force her to go through childbirth? Frankly I'm from the school of thought that a person does in fact have a right over their own body.
OnTheRocks Posted September 24, 2004 Author Posted September 24, 2004 interesting points... and really....my reason to ask isn't to drum up a storm of controversy on the board as the typical abortion thread does. and i also want to add that my reason to ask is not a personal situation...not that it matters. there are soooooo many scenarios that could come up... being a pro-lifer, i just wonder though....a couple different scenarios: if a husband and wife decide they want to have a child, and they go about their "business" to procreate....isn't there some sort of verbal contract?
tennesseeboy Posted September 24, 2004 Posted September 24, 2004 There could even be a written contract. The court would certainly not grant what we call "specific performance" (making her go through with the birth.) The courts would probably reason that enforcing such a provision would be unconstitutional or even against public policy. Might the father get money damages? Much more complex question, although I doubt he would get even that.
slothrop Posted September 24, 2004 Posted September 24, 2004 is there any actual written law on this specific topic? 44213[/snapback] There is an opinion authored by O'Conner that states that any legal requirment that a woman must obtain the consent of the father/husband before getting an abortion, constitutes an "undue burden" on the woman's constitutional rights. (the "undue burden" test is the test created by the S.C. for abortion cases). O'Conner argued that such a ruling could be catastophic in an abusive relationship and in other situations. I have forgotten the name of the case, but if I have time today I will look it up.
OnTheRocks Posted September 24, 2004 Author Posted September 24, 2004 There is an opinion authored by O'Conner that states that any legal requirment that a woman must obtain the consent of the father/husband before getting an abortion, constitutes an "undue burden" on the woman's constitutional rights. (the "undue burden" test is the test created by the S.C. for abortion cases). O'Conner argued that such a ruling could be catastophic in an abusive relationship and in other situations. I have forgotten the name of the case, but if I have time today I will look it up. 44261[/snapback] thanks...i would be bery interested in reading that.
OGTEleven Posted September 24, 2004 Posted September 24, 2004 Not that I know of. Think of it though. If the father had a say in the abortion decision it would be a two way street. Can a father decide to have an abortion if the mother decides not to have one? Of course not. And he shouldn't. The mother has a right to her body, and a right to make bad choices with it. The state has some legal interest at a point. (Roe v. Wade). The father doesn't, at least not until the child's birth. How would you enforce a right given to the father? Imprison the mother and force her to go through childbirth? Frankly I'm from the school of thought that a person does in fact have a right over their own body. 44229[/snapback] I shouldn't do this but here I go. My question is actually an honest one about your opinion. I will admit that I'm only writing it because I get annoyed by the phrases "a woman's right to choose" and/or "a right to her own body". Here's why and here are my questions: If a woman chooses not to: Be on the pill and/or use another type of contraceptive and/or make herself aware of the failure rates of said contraceptives and/or withhold sex from her partner until a condom is used and/or refrain from sex altogether because of its potential consequences, does it not establish a pattern of choices the woman has already made? All choices big or small, determine the future. This is true whether we want it to be or not. In general pro-life people are pro-life because they believe the baby is a separate person. This separate person would not have been created in the first place had not several choices already been made by the mother (and father). Once it has been created, if you believe it is a person, then the "choice" argument is ridiculous (IMO). If you do not believe it is a person, then there is an argument to be made for abortion I guess, but it isn't really an argument about choice, is it?
slothrop Posted September 24, 2004 Posted September 24, 2004 The case is Casey v. Planned Parenthood, et al., 505 U.S. 833, 112 S.Ct. 2791 (1992).
Paco Posted September 25, 2004 Posted September 25, 2004 This may very well be the wrong question to ask, but just out of curiosity, do you think the laws would be any different if the man was the one who actually gave birth? On another note; Have any of you ever spawned a child unexpectedly, and have it lead to the woman having an abortion? I did. Once. Apparently. We'll never know for sure. About 20 years ago, off a fling with a chick from the office. She was seeing someone else, and cheated on him with me. Came back later, said she was pregnant. Went to her boyfriend, and he said "Can't be me, I'm shooting blanks." So it must be me. And no, I had no money to do anything other than to shut up, listen and pray. The point is...I always felt I didn't have a say in her choice. I asked her what she wanted to do, she said "have an abortion," and that was that. She arranged it, I paid for it, and that was the end of it. But as it turns out, I DID have a say in her decision. I just never spoke up because whatever I was going to say already agreed with her decision. In fact, I agreed so much, I offered to pay. Sounds so cliche. But honestly...other than being there afterwards, what else can a broke 23-year-old do? She sat and cried for two straight hours. Worst one-night stand of my life.
erynthered Posted September 25, 2004 Posted September 25, 2004 This may very well be the wrong question to ask, but just out of curiosity, do you think the laws would be any different if the man was the one who actually gave birth? On another note; Have any of you ever spawned a child unexpectedly, and have it lead to the woman having an abortion? I did. Once. Apparently. We'll never know for sure. About 20 years ago, off a fling with a chick from the office. She was seeing someone else, and cheated on him with me. Came back later, said she was pregnant. Went to her boyfriend, and he said "Can't be me, I'm shooting blanks." So it must be me. And no, I had no money to do anything other than to shut up, listen and pray. The point is...I always felt I didn't have a say in her choice. I asked her what she wanted to do, she said "have an abortion," and that was that. She arranged it, I paid for it, and that was the end of it. But as it turns out, I DID have a say in her decision. I just never spoke up because whatever I was going to say already agreed with her decision. In fact, I agreed so much, I offered to pay. Sounds so cliche. But honestly...other than being there afterwards, what else can a broke 23-year-old do? She sat and cried for two straight hours. Worst one-night stand of my life. 45086[/snapback] We have allot in common, more than I thought.
Paco Posted September 25, 2004 Posted September 25, 2004 We have allot in common, more than I thought. 45089[/snapback] And oddly enough only one of us knows how to spel "a lot."
erynthered Posted September 25, 2004 Posted September 25, 2004 And oddly enough only one of us knows how to spel "a lot." 45097[/snapback] Hey, did Kerry vote for the extension of the middle class tax breaks? I looked for the bill earlier, but could'nt find it. It was passed in the senate 93-3 I believe. course he did fight in Vietnam
tennesseeboy Posted September 25, 2004 Posted September 25, 2004 I shouldn't do this but here I go. My question is actually an honest one about your opinion. I will admit that I'm only writing it because I get annoyed by the phrases "a woman's right to choose" and/or "a right to her own body". Here's why and here are my questions: If a woman chooses not to: Be on the pill and/or use another type of contraceptive and/or make herself aware of the failure rates of said contraceptives and/or withhold sex from her partner until a condom is used and/or refrain from sex altogether because of its potential consequences, does it not establish a pattern of choices the woman has already made? All choices big or small, determine the future. This is true whether we want it to be or not. In general pro-life people are pro-life because they believe the baby is a separate person. This separate person would not have been created in the first place had not several choices already been made by the mother (and father). Once it has been created, if you believe it is a person, then the "choice" argument is ridiculous (IMO). If you do not believe it is a person, then there is an argument to be made for abortion I guess, but it isn't really an argument about choice, is it? 44275[/snapback] I think the issue of the thread was the father's "right" in the decision to abort (or, for that matter, to give birth.). The right to decide whether to give birth is still a right. Would it make a difference if the woman were raped, or was incapable of choice in an abortion situation? That is, the woman didn't participate in a "pattern of choices?" Assuming arguendo that in any case the fetus is a person the choices if any that the woman made would be irrelevant. I think as a legal matter the choice in any case is still that of the woman.
OGTEleven Posted September 25, 2004 Posted September 25, 2004 I think the issue of the thread was the father's "right" in the decision to abort (or, for that matter, to give birth.). The right to decide whether to give birth is still a right. Would it make a difference if the woman were raped, or was incapable of choice in an abortion situation? That is, the woman didn't participate in a "pattern of choices?" Assuming arguendo that in any case the fetus is a person the choices if any that the woman made would be irrelevant. I think as a legal matter the choice in any case is still that of the woman. 45393[/snapback] You brought the word "choice" into the thread, not me. My post really doesn't have much to do with the overall abortion argument. My point is that the term "choice" is misused. In the vast majority of cases it has nothing to do with choice. I'm not too good at predicting things in general, but it was pretty easy to predict you'd say "what about rape?".
Mickey Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 interesting points...and really....my reason to ask isn't to drum up a storm of controversy on the board as the typical abortion thread does. and i also want to add that my reason to ask is not a personal situation...not that it matters. there are soooooo many scenarios that could come up... being a pro-lifer, i just wonder though....a couple different scenarios: if a husband and wife decide they want to have a child, and they go about their "business" to procreate....isn't there some sort of verbal contract? 44246[/snapback] Try the reverse, lets say she promises to use contraception and doesn't. Is that a binding contract so that he can force termination of the pregnancy he was promised wouldn't happen? Try another situation: Take two parents who, because of fertitlity problem, have to have fertilization take place out of the womb and the embryo implanted in her womb. Lets say that she decides, after fertilization but before implantation that she doesn't want a child. Would the father have the right under this binding contract theory to forcibly implant the embryo and make her, against her will, carry the child to term? If it was a contract, it would basically be a baby selling contract. The law won't enforce such a contract. Baby selling is verboten.
Mickey Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 This may very well be the wrong question to ask, but just out of curiosity, do you think the laws would be any different if the man was the one who actually gave birth? On another note; Have any of you ever spawned a child unexpectedly, and have it lead to the woman having an abortion? I did. Once. Apparently. We'll never know for sure. About 20 years ago, off a fling with a chick from the office. She was seeing someone else, and cheated on him with me. Came back later, said she was pregnant. Went to her boyfriend, and he said "Can't be me, I'm shooting blanks." So it must be me. And no, I had no money to do anything other than to shut up, listen and pray. The point is...I always felt I didn't have a say in her choice. I asked her what she wanted to do, she said "have an abortion," and that was that. She arranged it, I paid for it, and that was the end of it. But as it turns out, I DID have a say in her decision. I just never spoke up because whatever I was going to say already agreed with her decision. In fact, I agreed so much, I offered to pay. Sounds so cliche. But honestly...other than being there afterwards, what else can a broke 23-year-old do? She sat and cried for two straight hours. Worst one-night stand of my life. 45086[/snapback] If a man could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
OnTheRocks Posted September 26, 2004 Author Posted September 26, 2004 If a man could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament. 45681[/snapback] that is a bit of a reach.
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