Alaska Darin Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 One year sampling is a recipe for disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BackInDaDay Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 If there's a college lineman that all your personnel people agree has the work ethic and drive to be something special. Draft him. I don't care if it's the 1st or 7th. But unless there's a kid like that, getting that kind of endorsement from your scouts (not Kiper or anyone else), don't waste the pick. No other position in football requires the kind of mental and physical toughness that good O linemen posess. It's very hard to gauge this kind of toughness and forecast how young guys respond to higher levels of competition. The more I see of pro football, the more I'm of the mind to use FA to fill out my line. This is where I would invest heavily. Let each seasons crop of young linemen learn their craft and temper their edge somewhere else. Every off-season throw a bag of money at the best of them, and make him your own. Why gamble on boys when you can buy men. (Take it easy you pervs ). There's a lot of fast guys that can run and catch. There's a lot of guys who can throw a pretty spiral. There aren't many guys who have the athleticism, temperment, discipline and plain ol' nasty streak to be successful O linemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical TBD Guy Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Oh, and Dilfer. Oh, and Steve Young after Aikman's first two and the year before his third. And Brett Favre won two as a high second roud pick. 603521[/snapback] Yeah...so I'm clearly getting worked in this thread over that final sentence . Now that all football credibility has been lost, I will go hibernate for a while. See you all around September! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofiba Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Oh, and Dilfer. Oh, and Steve Young after Aikman's first two and the year before his third. And Brett Favre won two as a high second roud pick. 603521[/snapback] Not to nit-pick, but Favre only won 1 super bowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Not to nit-pick, but Favre only won 1 super bowl. 603580[/snapback] True. Good point. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRW Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Now that all football credibility has been lost, 603576[/snapback] ...you fit right in around here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justnzane Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Oh, and Dilfer. Oh, and Steve Young after Aikman's first two and the year before his third. And Brett Favre won two as a high second roud pick. 603521[/snapback] Good catch about Milfer, I totally forgot about him as the ravers offensive manager... err QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 There aren't many guys who have the athleticism, temperment, discipline and plain ol' nasty streak to be successful O linemen. 603568[/snapback] I see where you're going with this. I agree with the parts about the physical and mental toughness, mean streak, work ethic, etc. But I've heard that OL are considered a safer, higher percentage draft choice than most other positions. I'm not disagreeing with you about the magnitude of the transition from college to pro OL. But the transition from college non-OL to pro non-OL is pretty big too. Look at Josh Reed, the leading college receiver the year he was drafted. You run into a few problems when trying to build your OL with free agents: - The best OL, like Orlando Pace, will never hit the free agent market. - Other teams are trying to attract FA OL too, so you might end up having to go with plan B or plan C. - The players you do sign can get old in a hurry, or have shorter careers than you might expect. Chris Villarrial was one of the best available FA guards the year he was signed. He gave us maybe two good years of play, plus a poor (injury related) year last year. Now his position is a question mark; even though we addressed it in free agency just three years ago. And Chris has all the mental traits you want in an OL: toughness, mean streak, work ethic, etc. I'd rather draft a guy like Chris Villarrial, and keep him on the team his whole career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BackInDaDay Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 I'd rather draft a guy like Chris Villarrial, and keep him on the team his whole career. 603846[/snapback] Then why didn't we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Then why didn't we? 603855[/snapback] From drafthistory.com: 1996 1 1 13 13 Walt Harris DB Mississippi State 2 2 22 52 Bobby Engram WR Penn State 3 4 21 116 Paul Grasmanis DT Notre Dame 4 5 20 152 Chris Villarrial G Indiana (PA) 1996 1 1 24 24 Eric Moulds WR Mississippi State 2 2 23 53 Gabe Northern DE Louisiana State 3 3 26 87 Matt Stevens DB Appalachian State 4 4 25 120 Sean Moran DE Colorado State 5 5 24 156 Ray Jackson DB Colorado State 6 6 29 196 Leon Neal RB Washington 7 6 35 202 Dusty Ziegler C Notre Dame 8 7 28 237 Dan Bradenburg DE Indiana State 9 7 35 244 Jay Riemersma TE Michigan 10 7 40 249 Eric Smedley DB Indiana Because the Bills, despite having 10 picks in 96, only drafted one blocker; Zeigler in round 7. Surprised? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BackInDaDay Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 From drafthistory.com: 1996 1 1 13 13 Walt Harris DB Mississippi State 2 2 22 52 Bobby Engram WR Penn State 3 4 21 116 Paul Grasmanis DT Notre Dame 4 5 20 152 Chris Villarrial G Indiana (PA) 1996 1 1 24 24 Eric Moulds WR Mississippi State 2 2 23 53 Gabe Northern DE Louisiana State 3 3 26 87 Matt Stevens DB Appalachian State 4 4 25 120 Sean Moran DE Colorado State 5 5 24 156 Ray Jackson DB Colorado State 6 6 29 196 Leon Neal RB Washington 7 6 35 202 Dusty Ziegler C Notre Dame 8 7 28 237 Dan Bradenburg DE Indiana State 9 7 35 244 Jay Riemersma TE Michigan 10 7 40 249 Eric Smedley DB Indiana Because the Bills, despite having 10 picks in 96, only drafted one blocker; Zeigler in round 7. Surprised? 603874[/snapback] Good research, Bill. Thanks. My point is, no one has a crystal ball - not then - not now. It's almost impossible to draft a dominant O-line. So why bother throwing huge signing bonuses at young men who may, or may not, develop into players who deserve their compensation. Save your money to knock the socks off as many veteran FA linemen as possible. Arm's correct in warning of the difficulty in accomplishing this, and the possible need to fall back to LG/PlanB and RT/PlanC. But hell, that's where were at now doing it the traditional way. Gandy and Anderson when guys like Wahle were available? I say sign at least one top-notch, veteran O-line mercenary each off-season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 I see where you're going with this. I agree with the parts about the physical and mental toughness, mean streak, work ethic, etc. But I've heard that OL are considered a safer, higher percentage draft choice than most other positions. I'm not disagreeing with you about the magnitude of the transition from college to pro OL. But the transition from college non-OL to pro non-OL is pretty big too. Look at Josh Reed, the leading college receiver the year he was drafted. You run into a few problems when trying to build your OL with free agents: - The best OL, like Orlando Pace, will never hit the free agent market. - Other teams are trying to attract FA OL too, so you might end up having to go with plan B or plan C. - The players you do sign can get old in a hurry, or have shorter careers than you might expect. Chris Villarrial was one of the best available FA guards the year he was signed. He gave us maybe two good years of play, plus a poor (injury related) year last year. Now his position is a question mark; even though we addressed it in free agency just three years ago. And Chris has all the mental traits you want in an OL: toughness, mean streak, work ethic, etc. I'd rather draft a guy like Chris Villarrial, and keep him on the team his whole career. 603846[/snapback] OK....credit where it is due. This post makes complete sense from start to finish. Btw, now Pace is the best ever? Are you sure you wouldn't rather field Kurt Warner on your favorite football team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 OK....credit where it is due. This post makes complete sense from start to finish. Btw, now Pace is the best ever? Are you sure you wouldn't rather field Kurt Warner on your favorite football team? 604215[/snapback] Thanks for the compliment. I can see where I left myself open to teasing about the Kurt Warner/Orlando Pace situation. Really, all I was trying to say was that Kurt Warner was the biggest single factor to the Rams' success during the one year they won the Super Bowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Big Ben? 603189[/snapback] ha ha....good one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Also....one thing that seems to not be talked about in this thread.... We need to bring in QUALITY OL SCOUTS TO FIND THE LINEMEN..... Come on Ralph...spend some dollars there..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB2004 Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 When Marv was coach of the Bills, in our best years, his offensive line was made up of the equivalent of three street free agents and two number one picks. Ballard and John Davis were both drafted in the 11th round. Davis wasn't even drafted by the Bills but the Oilers, so he was an 11th round pick and free agent and didn't cost a lot of money. Kent Hunt wasn't even drafted in 11 rounds and was a free agent, too, from the USFL. Marv's DT was the weakest link in his line and his entire defense (outside of the coaching). So exactly what makes anyone think that Marv cares more about the line or using high picks or signing big contracts to free agents than his predecessor? Because he said so to Ed Kilgore? 603467[/snapback] So you don't think Marv's first priority is upgrading the offensive line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turftoe Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 When Marv was coach of the Bills, in our best years, his offensive line was made up of the equivalent of three street free agents and two number one picks. Ballard and John Davis were both drafted in the 11th round. Davis wasn't even drafted by the Bills but the Oilers, so he was an 11th round pick and free agent and didn't cost a lot of money. Kent Hunt wasn't even drafted in 11 rounds and was a free agent, too, from the USFL. Marv's DT was the weakest link in his line and his entire defense (outside of the coaching). So exactly what makes anyone think that Marv cares more about the line or using high picks or signing big contracts to free agents than his predecessor? Because he said so to Ed Kilgore? 603467[/snapback] Who is Kent Hunt? Any relation to Mike Hunt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Who is Kent Hunt? Any relation to Mike Hunt? 604487[/snapback] Oops. But frankly, i didn't think you had one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 So you don't think Marv's first priority is upgrading the offensive line? 604442[/snapback] 1] The point is really that TD didn't ignore the lines like everyone claims he did, nor does he think the OL and DL aren't as important as everyone else does, especially Marv Levy. Nor does the fact that he didnt spend each of his #1 or first day picks on offensive linemen imply he stays as far away from them as he can. 2] I think Marv Levy will have approximately the same intentions on fixing the OL and the DL coming into this off season that TD would have had if he were still here, and that virtually every other GM in the league would have. It's pretty obvious. It wasn't as obvious last year, although it was still clearly needed. But we have decisions to be made on CB if Nate leaves, WR if Moulds leaves, TE, FB, LB if Takeo is not back 100% and S if they determine that Milloy and/or Vincent are not cut out for the defensive scheme. And surely they will go after a few OL and DL immediately but no one knows what other teams are going to offer thse guys or if these guys want to play for the Bills versus some other city or team or coach or system elsewhere and each player is different. And we don't know who is going to be available in the draft when we pick at our spot until the team ahead of us chooses. So I think Marv again would do precisely what TD would have done, see what's out there, target several players he and his coaches and scouts like, find out how much they cost vs how much we have and who else we're looking at and make decisions based on all of those factors, signing the best guys for the best deals (and that does not necessarily cheap deal, but best bang for buck.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justnzane Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Oops. But frankly, i didn't think you had one. 604499[/snapback] but didn't you see that his name is cameltoe? .... err... i mean turftoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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