ans4e64 Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 Some poeple say we need to use our first round picks on offensive lineman, others say you can find good lineman in the later rounds. If you look at the two teams in the super bowl this year, the steelers and seahawks, they both make a strong argument towards where lineman should be picked according to the team's success. Steelers line: LT- Marvel Smith 2nd rounder LG- Alan Faneca 1st round C - Jeff Hartings 1st round (keep in mind drafted by detroit) RG- Kendall Simmons 1st round RT- Max Starks 3rd round TE- Heath Miller 1st round Seahawks line: LT- Walter Jones 1st round LG- Steve Hutchinson 1st round C - Robbie Tobeck doesnt say, assuming undrafted RG- Chris Gray 5th round RT- Sean Locklear 3rd round TE- Jeremy Stevens 1st round Out of 12 positions, only 1 was drafted on the second day. Pretty amazing. I guess it is important to draft high on the o-line. I also dont know when tobeck was drafted it didnt say. Go D'Brick!!!! (he wont be there but i can pray)
Typical TBD Guy Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 Good thread! You may also be interested in this info: Offensive linemen the Bills have drafted in the first day (the first 3 rounds) since 1995: 1995, Ruben Brown, G, 1st round, 14th overall 1998, Robert Hicks, T, 3rd round, 68th overall 2001 Jonas Jennings, T, 3rd round, 95th overall 2002 Mike Williams, T, 1st round, 4th overall And this: Buffalo's first day draft picks devoted to QB's since 1995: 1995, 2nd round, Todd Collins 1997, 3rd round, Billy Joe Hobert trade 1998, 1st round, Rob Johnson trade 2003, 1st round, Drew Bledsoe trade 2004, 2nd round, JP Losman trade 2005, 1st round, JP Losman trade So in the past 11 drafts, the Bills have devoted 6 first day picks on 1 position and 4 first day picks on 5 positions. Perhaps not coincidentally, 1995 was the last year that the Bills won their division and also won a playoff game . My conclusions based solely on the data from our two posts? 1. Don't be afraid to draft interior linemen in the first round. 2. STFU about 1st round QB's already - have any even won a Super Bowl since Aikman?
34-78-83 Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 2. STFU about 1st round QB's already - have any even won a Super Bowl since Aikman? 603165[/snapback] Big Ben?
The Dean Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 2. 1st round QB's already - have any even won a Super Bowl since Aikman? 603165[/snapback] Well, there's that Ben something for the Steelers.
ans4e64 Posted February 14, 2006 Author Posted February 14, 2006 Well, there's that Ben something for the Steelers. 603191[/snapback] HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
scribo Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 So the bottomline of this thread is that the Bills are the eighth worst team as of this moment largely because they have drafted very poorly for a good deal of time. Right?
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 Good thread! You may also be interested in this info: Offensive linemen the Bills have drafted in the first day (the first 3 rounds) since 1995: 1995, Ruben Brown, G, 1st round, 14th overall 1998, Robert Hicks, T, 3rd round, 68th overall 2001 Jonas Jennings, T, 3rd round, 95th overall 2002 Mike Williams, T, 1st round, 4th overall 603165[/snapback] That's a little misleading. We have also signed offensive linemen in free agency who were first day draft picks--like Mike Gandy, for instance. If the original poster counted guys like Jeff Hartings and Chris Gray--who were drafted by other teams and signed in FA by the Steelers and Hawks--then I think our o-line history looks a little better on that account too. And another point: what about the Patriots? How many first round or first day picks did they have on their o-line when they won their Super Bowls? Bellichick is a firm believer in the idea that you can get by with low-round and undrafted scrubs and coach them into very good linemen.
Bill from NYC Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 Some poeple say we need to use our first round picks on offensive lineman, others say you can find good lineman in the later rounds. If you look at the two teams in the super bowl this year, the steelers and seahawks, they both make a strong argument towards where lineman should be picked according to the team's success. Steelers line: LT- Marvel Smith 2nd rounder LG- Alan Faneca 1st round C - Jeff Hartings 1st round (keep in mind drafted by detroit) RG- Kendall Simmons 1st round RT- Max Starks 3rd round TE- Heath Miller 1st round Seahawks line: LT- Walter Jones 1st round LG- Steve Hutchinson 1st round C - Robbie Tobeck doesnt say, assuming undrafted RG- Chris Gray 5th round RT- Sean Locklear 3rd round TE- Jeremy Stevens 1st round Out of 12 positions, only 1 was drafted on the second day. Pretty amazing. I guess it is important to draft high on the o-line. I also dont know when tobeck was drafted it didnt say. Go D'Brick!!!! (he wont be there but i can pray) 603116[/snapback] Come over and help us get the college football boards going.
Typical TBD Guy Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 Well, there's that Ben something for the Steelers. 603191[/snapback] Well in my defense, it's fair to say that Big Ben wasn't a Big reason for that team's success, right? I think the rest of the Pittsburgh offense (OL???) and the defense had a much bigger impact than did the rest of the Cowboys teams that helped Aikman.
Kelly the Dog Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 Good thread! You may also be interested in this info: 2004, 1st round, JP Losman 2004, 2nd round, JP Losman trade 2005, 1st round, JP Losman trade 603165[/snapback] I'm interested in exactly how we spent two firsts and a second round pick on Losman. That new math...
The Dean Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 Well in my defense, it's fair to say that Big Ben wasn't a Big reason for that team's success, right? I think the rest of the Pittsburgh offense (OL???) and the defense had a much bigger impact than did the rest of the Cowboys teams that helped Aikman. 603246[/snapback] true dat. But you posed the question...
Fla Bills Fan Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 I'm interested in exactly how we spent two firsts and a second round pick on Losman. That new math... 603253[/snapback] Iwas wondering that myself. Seems to me we exchanged #1s with Dallas & gave them a #2, therefore1+1-1+2=One #1 + one#2
Typical TBD Guy Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 I'm interested in exactly how we spent two firsts and a second round pick on Losman. That new math... 603253[/snapback] You are correct. It's been edited.
Typical TBD Guy Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 That's a little misleading. We have also signed offensive linemen in free agency who were first day draft picks--like Mike Gandy, for instance. If the original poster counted guys like Jeff Hartings and Chris Gray--who were drafted by other teams and signed in FA by the Steelers and Hawks--then I think our o-line history looks a little better on that account too. And another point: what about the Patriots? How many first round or first day picks did they have on their o-line when they won their Super Bowls? Bellichick is a firm believer in the idea that you can get by with low-round and undrafted scrubs and coach them into very good linemen. 603243[/snapback] I wasn't misleading. My goal was to show everyone how little respect the Bills have been giving the offensive line IN THE DRAFT only, and I feel I did that. If you'd rather I compare Buffalo's current starting OL with the Super Bowlers (drafted PLUS free agents), we can do that now. Looking over them, we see Gandy (3rd round) as the lone first day draft pick (MW is a backup LG, currently). So Pitt has 5/5, Seattle no less than 3/5, and the Bills 1/5. Make of this as you will; my interpretation is more of the same.... If you want to continue believing in the Belichick/NE model for OL success, be my guest. There is certainly no single correct formula for building an OL, let alone an entire football team. Other teams like the Broncos have had similar success building an OL mostly with day 2 picks and UDFA's. But my opinion is more of a "been there, tried that, let's try something else" mentality with our line. I bet most of this board feels the same way as I do. TD tried to emulate the Pats model in his last 3 years, and he failed miserably. Butler ignored the OL for most of his time here too, and his offenses had similar failures.
Tortured Soul Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 And another point: what about the Patriots? How many first round or first day picks did they have on their o-line when they won their Super Bowls? Bellichick is a firm believer in the idea that you can get by with low-round and undrafted scrubs and coach them into very good linemen. 603243[/snapback] And the Broncos and the Falcons. It helps to look at more evidence, because picking these two teams, who happened to meet in the Superbowl, is a coincidence. Those were the same lines they had last year and the year before, when they didn't meet in the Superbowl. We're having this debate in another thread, too, but that is part of why I'm arguing that the key to success is continuity and schemes. The longer these lines stay together, the better they get. The Bills have no continuity. They change two or three starters every year, and that is what this board wants again next year. It takes patience to develop a QB. It takes patience to develop a line, too.
BB2004 Posted February 15, 2006 Posted February 15, 2006 Good thread! You may also be interested in this info: Offensive linemen the Bills have drafted in the first day (the first 3 rounds) since 1995: 1995, Ruben Brown, G, 1st round, 14th overall 1998, Robert Hicks, T, 3rd round, 68th overall 2001 Jonas Jennings, T, 3rd round, 95th overall 2002 Mike Williams, T, 1st round, 4th overall And this: Buffalo's first day draft picks devoted to QB's since 1995: 1995, 2nd round, Todd Collins 1997, 3rd round, Billy Joe Hobert trade 1998, 1st round, Rob Johnson trade 2003, 1st round, Drew Bledsoe trade 2004, 2nd round, JP Losman trade 2005, 1st round, JP Losman trade So in the past 11 drafts, the Bills have devoted 6 first day picks on 1 position and 4 first day picks on 5 positions. Perhaps not coincidentally, 1995 was the last year that the Bills won their division and also won a playoff game . My conclusions based solely on the data from our two posts? 1. Don't be afraid to draft interior linemen in the first round. 2. STFU about 1st round QB's already - have any even won a Super Bowl since Aikman? 603165[/snapback] With Marv at the GM position, the offensive line will be our first priority. He understands the weakness in this football team and it is good that he will be addressing this need right away.
Kelly the Dog Posted February 15, 2006 Posted February 15, 2006 With Marv at the GM position, the offensive line will be our first priority. He understands the weakness in this football team and it is good that he will be addressing this need right away. 603464[/snapback] When Marv was coach of the Bills, in our best years, his offensive line was made up of the equivalent of three street free agents and two number one picks. Ballard and John Davis were both drafted in the 11th round. Davis wasn't even drafted by the Bills but the Oilers, so he was an 11th round pick and free agent and didn't cost a lot of money. Kent Hull wasn't even drafted in 11 rounds and was a free agent, too, from the USFL. Marv's DT was the weakest link in his line and his entire defense (outside of the coaching). So exactly what makes anyone think that Marv cares more about the line or using high picks or signing big contracts to free agents than his predecessor? Because he said so to Ed Kilgore?
justnzane Posted February 15, 2006 Posted February 15, 2006 2. STFU about 1st round QB's already - have any even won a Super Bowl since Aikman? 603165[/snapback] Elway and Big Ben
Kelly the Dog Posted February 15, 2006 Posted February 15, 2006 Elway and Big Ben 603520[/snapback] Oh, and Dilfer. Oh, and Steve Young after Aikman's first two and the year before his third. And Brett Favre won two as a high second roud pick.
Orton's Arm Posted February 15, 2006 Posted February 15, 2006 We're having this debate in another thread, too, but that is part of why I'm arguing that the key to success is continuity and schemes. The longer these lines stay together, the better they get. The Bills have no continuity. They change two or three starters every year, and that is what this board wants again next year. It takes patience to develop a QB. It takes patience to develop a line, too. 603309[/snapback] I agree continuity and schemes are critical to an OL's success. But continuity without talent will only get you so far. John Fina, for example, spent almost his entire career here, but he wasn't exactly an Orlando Pace. Because continuity is so important, I'm a big proponent of building the offensive line through the draft. That way, you can keep a given player on your team for his whole career. If you sign players halfway through their careers, obviously you'd be replacing them twice as often. There are no Bills' draft picks starting on the current line. Guys like Teague and Villarrial are getting on in years, while Anderson should never have been brought here in the first place. There isn't any way to avoid serious disruption along this line over the next 2 - 3 years, because of the Teague and Villarrial age issues. A few years after that, it will be Anderson and Gandy retiring. Those four guys aren't great players anyway. Since there's going to be disruption anyway no matter what the Bills do, it would be best to get it over with in one big lump. Draft a bunch of OL this year, maybe start working them into some games in 2006, and by 2007 the line could start to gel. Assuming you drafted the right players, you could leave that line in place for the next ten years, and it'd be fine.
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