The Dean Posted February 9, 2006 Posted February 9, 2006 I suppose it made a lot of sense for Donahoe to pick Willis when we already had Travis and much more pressing needs. Marv knows the importance of the QB position. I'm not saying it is a sure thing he would take Cutler if available, I'm simply saying that many scouts feel Cutler is a hell of a QB. Our scouts (and Modrak) loved Willis enough to pick him bum knee and all even when our needs seemed greater at other spots. If our scouting department is really high on Cutler, and again, I really don't know if this is the case, it wouldn't surprise me to hear his name called at #8. In terms of Roethlisburger, some would say we should have tried harder to trade up to get him. If the bills feel good about JPL then this is a mute discussion. If they have major misgivings, then don't be surprised if they consider Cutler. 599731[/snapback] I think it is "mute", that is silent, as my guess is they aren't talking about it. But, you probably meant, "moot"...and my guess is it's that as well. The circumstances, needs and draft positions ar SO different here than when the Bills picked Willis, that it's nonsense to compare them, IMO.
IBTG81 Posted February 9, 2006 Posted February 9, 2006 Marv won't trade 599459[/snapback] I just knew you were gonna chime in and post this, oh broken record. Where did Marv ever say he wasn't going to trade?
mjjk73 Posted February 9, 2006 Posted February 9, 2006 i think if marv trades it would not be with an afc east team why would the bills want to help out a key rival by giving them extra picks
turftoe Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 I think it is "mute", that is silent, as my guess is they aren't talking about it. But, you probably meant, "moot"...and my guess is it's that as well. The circumstances, needs and draft positions ar SO different here than when the Bills picked Willis, that it's nonsense to compare them, IMO. 599737[/snapback] Moot it is. Still, the Bills felt that Willis was just too good to pass up and the pick shocked nearly everone. Nonsense? We shall see. You base your argument on an assumption that JPL is highly regarded by the incoming coaching staff and GM. Granted, Modrak probably had a big hand in chosing Losman and that may work in his favor. Still, if the powers that be are enthralled with Cutler, they will take him, IMO
Tasker Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 I would do what I could to get Mario Williams from NC State. He will be a difference maker as a pass rusher. If I had the 4th pick I would take Mario Williams over D'Brick as well. I think he will fall lower than 4, but probably not to 8, so I would consider trading up if the cost of doing so is made up for by the difference of player. I'm not sure what it would take to get us to 4, 5, 6, or 7. I'm also not sure yet what a difference 4 to 8 will be. I'm still hoping a few players I don't really want can find their way in there, like the Jets trading down a little but staying ahead of us meaning they take Cutler. There will be quality at 8, and if a few faces like Cutler or White sneak into the top 7 we should do just fine. Four is better than 8, but not a huge cost.
Orton's Arm Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 Well, I trust that Marv isn't a moron (we went to Harvard, after all ), so I'm not too worried that he'll take a QB with the #1 pick. . . .My guess is Marv knows that picking Cutler does NOTHING to help this team win next year and, probably, the year after that. 599708[/snapback] Let's say John Butler had been a moron back in 2000, and had traded up for Chad Pennington. Granted, the team seemed to have more pressing needs than at QB. We needed a DE, so Butler took Erik Flowers in round 1. He continued to draft for defense with Travares Tillman (S), in round 2, and Corey Moore (LB) in round 3. Why waste a first round pick on a QB, Butler apparently figured, when there was still some hope Rob Johnson might be the answer? Well, guess what? The three players that might have been traded away for Pennington were all busts. Pennington himself played quite well for the Jets before his injury. The Bills, meanwhile, turned out to have been more in need of a QB than Butler had been willing to admit. My point here isn't about whether the Bills should or shouldn't draft Cutler. I honestly don't know enough about him to have a firm opinion. But dismissing the Cutler option out of hand--as you cavalierly do--isn't the approach of a competent GM.
sfladave Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 Moot it is. Still, the Bills felt that Willis was just too good to pass up and the pick shocked nearly everone. Nonsense? We shall see. You base your argument on an assumption that JPL is highly regarded by the incoming coaching staff and GM. Granted, Modrak probably had a big hand in chosing Losman and that may work in his favor. Still, if the powers that be are enthralled with Cutler, they will take him, IMO 599755[/snapback] I understand your logic that if the Bills organization is anything but convinced of JPs potential they would have to formulate a strategy on how to replace him. Even if the Bills have no faith in JPs future, I don't think that drafting Cutler with the 8th pick is the probable solution. What I think that you must consider is that the QB strategy is incorporated into the larger overall team strategy. With the exception of a few tunnel visioned crusaders, everyone here knows that the Bills have many problems and we are not one or two people away from being SB contenders. Therefore the Bills must formulate a strategy on how to correct many problem areas. As I've said before, we need to put the horse back in front of the cart. For too many years the Bills have been trying to load up on skill players and ignore what gives really good teams their consistency, the offensive and defensive lines. The result of this is that we have been totally inconsistent. We've had more losses than wins and the good plays and wins are far outweighed by the ugly plays and losses. We lack any consistency, due in large part because of the sub par play in the trenches. Ralph said, "Changes will be made.", and "We want to win now." If the Bills are looking to follow this new philosophy then they will upgrade the lines and use a QB that has some NFL experience. More than likely it will take Cutler 1 or 2 years before he is able to suitably run an NFL offense. So are we better off taking a lineman like Ngata, Williams or D'Brickshaw who can contribute much more right away, or someone like Cutler, who may contribute in 1 to 2 years? No brainer I'd say. A QB pick on day 2 may happen, but I just don't see a 1st, 2nd or either of our 3rds being used for a QB. I think that this year the Bills will beef up our lines and then run the offense with JP and Holcomb. If they are still unhappy with the QB situation at the end of the 2006 season then in 2007 we pick up a FA QB and draft a QB high then. We will have gone a long way to establishing a solid foundation and that is much more important than adding another skill player.
Bill from NYC Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 Bills need to get OL help via Free Agency....Bills offense needs help right now...OL take time to develop...Bills have been down this road before...Bills have weapons on offense that are being underutilized in part to the OL play....now again, if the Bills upgrade the OL and still the Bills offense is weak, then we know with more certianity the skill players were vastly overrated. I would do what I could to get Mario Williams from NC State. He will be a difference maker as a pass rusher..Bills can get a DT in the later rounds or get a solid guy via FA. 599589[/snapback] Exactly what road are you talking about? Since 1981, the Bills have allocated all of 3 1st round picks to the offensive line. One of them was very good (Ruben Brown), another was OK for a few years (John Fina). The other (considering his slot) sucked (Fat Mike). I don't know how easy that you think it is to bring in quality blockers as free agents. We have seen some beauties, such as Farris and Panos. We have also had more than our share of mid to late round duds (Loucheiy, Hicks, Ostroski, Nails, Spriggs, and a host of other losers). While this was happening, other teams were winning superbowls with stud blockers, many of them first round picks. Continuity matters too. I for one hope that we abandon the TD method of drafting, which was a one way ticket to failure imo, and that we now select blockers often and early. See for yourself.
Orton's Arm Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 I understand your logic that if the Bills organization is anything but convinced of JPs potential they would have to formulate a strategy on how to replace him. Even if the Bills have no faith in JPs future, I don't think that drafting Cutler with the 8th pick is the probable solution. What I think that you must consider is that the QB strategy is incorporated into the larger overall team strategy. With the exception of a few tunnel visioned crusaders, everyone here knows that the Bills have many problems and we are not one or two people away from being SB contenders. Therefore the Bills must formulate a strategy on how to correct many problem areas. As I've said before, we need to put the horse back in front of the cart. For too many years the Bills have been trying to load up on skill players and ignore what gives really good teams their consistency, the offensive and defensive lines. The result of this is that we have been totally inconsistent. We've had more losses than wins and the good plays and wins are far outweighed by the ugly plays and losses. We lack any consistency, due in large part because of the sub par play in the trenches. Ralph said, "Changes will be made.", and "We want to win now." If the Bills are looking to follow this new philosophy then they will upgrade the lines and use a QB that has some NFL experience. More than likely it will take Cutler 1 or 2 years before he is able to suitably run an NFL offense. So are we better off taking a lineman like Ngata, Williams or D'Brickshaw who can contribute much more right away, or someone like Cutler, who may contribute in 1 to 2 years? No brainer I'd say. A QB pick on day 2 may happen, but I just don't see a 1st, 2nd or either of our 3rds being used for a QB. I think that this year the Bills will beef up our lines and then run the offense with JP and Holcomb. If they are still unhappy with the QB situation at the end of the 2006 season then in 2007 we pick up a FA QB and draft a QB high then. We will have gone a long way to establishing a solid foundation and that is much more important than adding another skill player. 599808[/snapback] You express yourself well, and I agree with your underlying logic of executing an overall team strategy. But there are a few points about which we disagree. First, a quarterback is different from other skill position players, in that a bad QB will kill your team with interceptions. Maybe a bad WR will fail to get open, or will drop passes. But you can still punt once your drives die, and that's better than having the other team return an INT for a TD. Or better still, just don't throw to the guy. But there's no way for a team to work around having a bad QB. I agree that a DT, for example, has a much better chance of making an immediate impact than a QB. But the Bills won't be going to next year's Super Bowl anyway. What a guy can bring to the table in 2007 or 2008 becomes more interesting than what he can do in 2006. Assume that the earliest the Bills will be a Super Bowl threat is 2007. It would make sense to try to focus on drafting offense this year, and defense next year. Offensive players tend to need time to develop, so you'd want to get them on board as quickly as possible to give them that time. This includes the QB, assuming this is a position of need. It also includes the OL. This year's draft is deep along the offensive line, so the Bills should strongly consider using their 2nd, 3rd, and 3rd round picks on the OL. The right strategy all depends on how much (or little) faith the Bills have in JP, in Cutler, and in the draft's other QBs. It's really tough to get to the Super Bowl without elite play from your QB. I'm fairly sure that, in the history of the Super Bowl, no core group of players has gone there twice unless that core group included an excellent QB. Elite QBs are rare to nonexistent in the free agent market, so you really have to take a long, hard look at the draft.
turftoe Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 I understand your logic that if the Bills organization is anything but convinced of JPs potential they would have to formulate a strategy on how to replace him. Even if the Bills have no faith in JPs future, I don't think that drafting Cutler with the 8th pick is the probable solution. What I think that you must consider is that the QB strategy is incorporated into the larger overall team strategy. With the exception of a few tunnel visioned crusaders, everyone here knows that the Bills have many problems and we are not one or two people away from being SB contenders. Therefore the Bills must formulate a strategy on how to correct many problem areas. As I've said before, we need to put the horse back in front of the cart. For too many years the Bills have been trying to load up on skill players and ignore what gives really good teams their consistency, the offensive and defensive lines. The result of this is that we have been totally inconsistent. We've had more losses than wins and the good plays and wins are far outweighed by the ugly plays and losses. We lack any consistency, due in large part because of the sub par play in the trenches Ralph said, "Changes will be made.", and "We want to win now." If the Bills are looking to follow this new philosophy then they will upgrade the lines and use a QB that has some NFL experience. More than likely it will take Cutler 1 or 2 years before he is able to suitably run an NFL offense. So are we better off taking a lineman like Ngata, Williams or D'Brickshaw who can contribute much more right away, or someone like Cutler, who may contribute in 1 to 2 years? No brainer I'd say. A QB pick on day 2 may happen, but I just don't see a 1st, 2nd or either of our 3rds being used for a QB. I think that this year the Bills will beef up our lines and then run the offense with JP and Holcomb. If they are still unhappy with the QB situation at the end of the 2006 season then in 2007 we pick up a FA QB and draft a QB high then. We will have gone a long way to establishing a solid foundation and that is much more important than adding another skill player. 599808[/snapback] It is true that most QBs take some time to develop. The same holds true for an offensive lineman. From what I hear, there are concerns about D'Brick's run blocking and that he will need to bulk up a bit. Ngata and Williams probably are not going to the pro bowl as rookies. I agree that the lines need to be addressed and will be, no doubt. From what I have read, the draft is fairly deep at OL and DL and good players can be had in the 2-4 rounds. It will boil down to the staff's opinion of JPL. If they are sold on him then there is no way we make the pick. If not, and if they really like Cutler, It would neither shock nor upset me.
MadBuffaloDisease Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 Apparently the Jets want Cutler badly, but don't want to take him at #4. Since the teams after them don't need a QB until the Lions at #9, dropping down to #8 seems like a good idea. However by doing this, they tip their hand to teams like the Lions, Cards, and Dols, who might be looking to move UP to take Cutler. So do the Jets HAVE to take Cutler at #4? Not necessarily. If I were Marv, I'd propose THIS to the Jets. Tell them that when #4 rolls around, they should take DE Mario Williams, which would be a good pick for them anyway. Since Cutler is still on the board, and there are only a few blue-chip players left in the draft, the next 3 teams would be unlikely to trade down past #8, thus leaving Cutler there for the Bills to take, and trade to the Jets for Williams and some pre-specified compensation (make the Jets take less than the draft chart says because they're hot to get Cutler but don't want to take him high. Say Buffalo's 2-3rd rounders, figuring the Bills will get a untradeable comp pick at the end of the 3rd round for losing Williams and/or Jennings). If by some chance Cutler is gone, the deal is off, the Jets get a great player in Williams, and the Bills do something else (as has been stated, Ferguson could very well be there).
BB2004 Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 I vote that we do not trade up because there will be a quality impact player at #8. I also believe there will be an opportunity to trade down if we so choose. D'Brickashaw is most likely going to be an excellent NFL OT but there is still a gamble involved in drafting OL earlier. Hopefully we have learned that lesson already. That being said I hope we take him if by some miracle he is there at #8. 599367[/snapback] That's right, no need to trade up, we will get an impact player, most likely Ngata, but we do have the option of trading down for more picks. If for some reason Ferguson doesn't get picked by the Jets, San Francisco would likely pick him at #7.
MadBuffaloDisease Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 That's right, no need to trade up, we will get an impact player, most likely Ngata, but we do have the option of trading down for more picks. If for some reason Ferguson doesn't get picked by the Jets, San Francisco would likely pick him at #7. I doubt that, when they already have Jennings. I could actually see them taking Ngata.
The Dean Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 Apparently the Jets want Cutler badly, but don't want to take him at #4. Since the teams after them don't need a QB until the Lions at #9, dropping down to #8 seems like a good idea. However by doing this, they tip their hand to teams like the Lions, Cards, and Dols, who might be looking to move UP to take Cutler. So do the Jets HAVE to take Cutler at #4? Not necessarily. If I were Marv, I'd propose THIS to the Jets. Tell them that when #4 rolls around, they should take DE Mario Williams, which would be a good pick for them anyway. Since Cutler is still on the board, and there are only a few blue-chip players left in the draft, the next 3 teams would be unlikely to trade down past #8, thus leaving Cutler there for the Bills to take, and trade to the Jets for Williams and some pre-specified compensation (make the Jets take less than the draft chart says because they're hot to get Cutler but don't want to take him high. Say Buffalo's 2-3rd rounders, figuring the Bills will get a untradeable comp pick at the end of the 3rd round for losing Williams and/or Jennings). If by some chance Cutler is gone, the deal is off, the Jets get a great player in Williams, and the Bills do something else (as has been stated, Ferguson could very well be there). 599848[/snapback] The only way you do that is if you are TRULY convinced Mario's the missing piece. That he's THAT much better than what you'll get at #8 PLUS two 3rd round picks. That's just WAY too high a price to pay, IMO. We need a lot of players and those two 3rd rounders should provide for two big bodies.
34-78-83 Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 I agree with not trading up and all but if for some magical reason 'Brick fell to us at #8, believe me, he will be a Bill. People can take their measureables and shove 'em up their collective a$$es regarding this guy. He's got the best technique and footwork in all of the NCAA and has a high likelyhood of settling someone's blind side for the next 10 years. This is not a position of glamour, this is a position of getting the job done and he does it better than any in this class.
MadBuffaloDisease Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 The only way you do that is if you are TRULY convinced Mario's the missing piece. That he's THAT much better than what you'll get at #8 PLUS two 3rd round picks. That's just WAY too high a price to pay, IMO. We need a lot of players and those two 3rd rounders should provide for two big bodies. They say that Williams has Peppers-like ability. And as I said, if the Bills get an end-of-3rd round comp pick for losing Williams and/or Jennings, trading away their original 3rd rounder and the Titans' 3rd rounder isn't so bad, to get a player of Williams' caliber.
obie_wan Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 I just knew you were gonna chime in and post this, oh broken record. Where did Marv ever say he wasn't going to trade? 599738[/snapback] Contrary to popular opinion, Marv basically had final say on the draft while Butler was the GM. Although the personnel decisions were basically made by committee, Butler was essentially the guy who identified teh talent but Marv had final say on whether the talent fit with his needs. During this same time, the Bills made ZERO draft day trades, preferring to let the draft come to them so they could utilize their draft board as laid out. Levy is conservative by nature and has no need to make the flashy deal like TD. Highly unlikely that Bills pursue any draft day trades. Only way a trade happens is if someone makes the Bills an incredible deal AND the Bills are basically still guaranteed of getting a targetted player at teh new spot.
d_wag Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 Only way a trade happens is if someone makes the Bills an incredible deal AND the Bills are basically still guaranteed of getting a targetted player at teh new spot. 599977[/snapback] ahh, i thought you have been saying a trade will unequivocally NOT happen? 100% NOT an option? now your saying it is possible?? make up your mind.....
obie_wan Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 ahh, i thought you have been saying a trade will unequivocally NOT happen? 100% NOT an option? now your saying it is possible?? make up your mind..... 600000[/snapback] The only way the above is possbile if they move 1 or 2 spots and the deal falls in their lap. Marv will not pursue a draft day trade.
HAMMER07 Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 I have watched plenty of game day tape over the past two years and just can't get a real feel for Ferguson at the NFL level. I can't get over the nagging feeling that in reality he is nothing more then a John Fina clone. As the older members of the board remember, Fina was a late first round pick who had good mobility, could handle the quick defensive ends but had trouble getting push against the run and was dominated by the bigger defensive ends. Now with the swing in the NFL being more and more 3-4 defensive schemes, I have a grave fear that the day of quick offensive tackles will go bye the board as teams start using 285 to 300 lb defensive ends. Even if D'Brick falls to 8, let somebody else take this guy and trade down. The other concern with D'Brick is that he is light (295 lbs), slow (5.30 40 time), and has less then avarage strength (watch the number of 225 lb reps at the combine) In I doubt we'll see D'Brick at the combine other then for just a physical and the meetings with teams. If he participates he will be exposed as to what he really is, an average tackle at the NFL level, with no real significant upside due to physical limitations. In the AFC East, with 4 to 6 "bad weather games" per year, you need power run blocking and offensive line push. These are already defined issues with D'Brick. The Bills must use their top pick to shore up the run defense. Haloti Ngata is from a player projection, very much a Jamal Williams of San Diego. Now, please tell me if you are going to use the 8th pick in the draft, would you select John Fina or Jamal Williams. Myself, I want a quicker version of Jamal Williams to stuff the run and anchor the line for the next 8 to 10 years. In closing there are many offensive tackles in this draft and fewer quality defensive tackles, so that again really defines the choice the Bills need to make. As always, questions and comments. 599469[/snapback] I agree, but chances are we would let Ngata go after his first four year contract. Oh wait, Donahoe is gone, never mind.
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