The Senator Posted February 9, 2006 Posted February 9, 2006 Maybe I disagree with you (and The Dean) in the sense that I think the best and brightest American minds DO tend to come from the Ivies and the other top schools. Statistically speaking, they do. Fewer than 1% of all American adults will have ever had the academic qualification necessary to get into an Ivy, and about 5-10% tops could make it through the easiest Ivy program if accepted - even history BA at Harvard! So if you're not among the top 10% intellects in the country, maybe an Ivy degree would seem impressive (unless you're a top 10% intellect at a "lesser" school for whatever personal reason - financial or other). Hey, if your son or daughter got accepted to one of these programs, wouldn't you be proud? Certainly you wouldn't "yawn" at such an accomplishment early in his/her life, right? Your perception of the Ivies as a sort of "rich boy network" also seems outdated. Undergrad acceptances at Ivies moved from social status-based to merit-based decades ago. Many still happen to be rich, but that's because there's still a strong correlation with wealth and aptitude, i.e. doctors and lawyers tend to have and raise smart children who can pump out the high school GPA's and SAT scores needed for Ivy admittance. Finally, I don't think liberal arts degrees are anything to laugh at, especially at the top schools. I'm sure there are some burn-outs who do nothing but drink, bang hot chicks, and take communications courses after getting accepted into an Ivy. But the vast majority probably continue to remain pretty serious about whatever their academic interests become - history or the like. A typical Harvard-qualified liberal arts major isn't the same personality as a typical Dumb!@#$ U. liberal arts major - just a guess. However, I DO completely agree with you in the sense that those who constantly look up to or - even worse - brag about these degrees are pathetic human beings. A Cornell engineer, for example, would be wise to STFU if he's constantly screwing up at your engineering firm while you, SDS, with your questionable academic pedigree ( ) are doing laps around the other employees. Back to the original subject, no I don't think there's an Ivy League conspiracy at OBD. Jauron probably would have gotten the job even if he graduated from Dumb!@#$ U. Levy wanted a smart, competent leader for the job. Levy saw a smart, competent leader in Jauron. And yes, there are smart, competent leaders who come out of Dumb!@#$ U....though percentage-wise, there are undoubtedly less of them than at Harvard or Yale. WOW! OK, rant over. 599054[/snapback] C+ (Neither eloquent nor precise, but containing a modicum of truth.)
Typical TBD Guy Posted February 9, 2006 Posted February 9, 2006 C+ (Neither eloquent nor precise, but containing a modicum of truth.) 599072[/snapback] Eloquent? Precise? Modicum? Them those fancy words you Ivy Leaguers use? They don't teach us them over at Dumb!@#$ U.
BRH Posted February 9, 2006 Posted February 9, 2006 A question for the board.... Is it really THAT impressive that someone received their undergraduate (or even their Master's) from Harvard or Yale? I understand that it is probably unique among NFL coaches, but I don't understand the fawning over this issue. ESPECIALLY when they majored in such subjects as history. Might as well have majored in beer and tail if you ask me. Anyhow, Harvard med/law is one thing... Undergraduate study in the liberal arts from these schools produces a great big yawn from me. 598875[/snapback] Harvard and Yale don't impress me either. Princeton, on the other hand... In all seriousness, I'm not impressed when ANYONE tells me in casual conversation where they went to school, nor do I expect anyone to be impressed when I tell them where I went. People who need to constantly bring up where they went to school (or what kind of car they drive, or how much their house is worth, or how much tail they get, or how many people they supervise at work) have serious insecurity issues. Education is what you make of it. It's possible to go almost ANYWHERE and get a great education. About the most I will grant is that at an Ivy or similar school, it's probably more difficult to graduate WITHOUT getting an education. Incidentally, when people ask me what professor I learned the most from in college, I usually answer "Pete Carril," and (1) I wasn't even on the basketball team and (2) HE doesn't even have an Ivy degree.
Nanker Posted February 9, 2006 Posted February 9, 2006 Harvard and Yale don't impress me either. Princeton, on the other hand... In all seriousness, I'm not impressed when ANYONE tells me in casual conversation where they went to school, nor do I expect anyone to be impressed when I tell them where I went. People who need to constantly bring up where they went to school (or what kind of car they drive, or how much their house is worth, or how much tail they get, or how many people they supervise at work) have serious insecurity issues. Education is what you make of it. It's possible to go almost ANYWHERE and get a great education. About the most I will grant is that at an Ivy or similar school, it's probably more difficult to graduate WITHOUT getting an education. Incidentally, when people ask me what professor I learned the most from in college, I usually answer "Pete Carril," and (1) I wasn't even on the basketball team and (2) HE doesn't even have an Ivy degree. 599108[/snapback] I live in Princeton and drive through the campus twice every work day. All I can say is this. 1600 on their SATs and those young dolts STILL don't know how to cross the street - WITH the light and IN the crosswalk!
nick in* england Posted February 9, 2006 Posted February 9, 2006 A question for the board.... Is it really THAT impressive that someone received their undergraduate (or even their Master's) from Harvard or Yale? I understand that it is probably unique among NFL coaches, but I don't understand the fawning over this issue. ESPECIALLY when they majored in such subjects as history. Might as well have majored in beer and tail if you ask me. Anyhow, Harvard med/law is one thing... Undergraduate study in the liberal arts from these schools produces a great big yawn from me. 598875[/snapback] Well exactly- they can't be too bright. After all, they are football coaches right?
BRH Posted February 9, 2006 Posted February 9, 2006 I live in Princeton and drive through the campus twice every work day.All I can say is this. 1600 on their SATs and those young dolts STILL don't know how to cross the street - WITH the light and IN the crosswalk! 599112[/snapback] Damn, I'm jealous, Nanker. You get to eat at the Haven any damn time you want.
RkFast Posted February 9, 2006 Posted February 9, 2006 I think there is a conspiracy. We all know that two people with similar backgrounds never grativate towards each other for employment, personal relationships or other social causes.
The Dean Posted February 9, 2006 Posted February 9, 2006 As stated earlier, the man distinguishes the place, not the place the man. 599023[/snapback] I think that says it all (whether in Latin or English). And to Kelso's Helmut, I didn't mean to discredit those who choose the Ivey League (or in the Senator's case, the Cornelian) path. Not at all. But, I try not to judge people by their alma mater, degree or professional title. There's a backlash against schooled and intelligent people that I also reject. To dismiss someone (or to negatively assess them) BECAUSE they went to Harvard or Yale (or Cornell), is terribly foolish, IMO.
nobody Posted February 9, 2006 Posted February 9, 2006 Yes, I'm generalizing a bit here... All the Ivy League undergraduate is mostly money and who you know/related to. It is the graduate programs of the Ivy Leagues where all of the smart people come into play. There is a book that came out recently that goes into a ton of detail about this. The period when DJ and GWB were at Yale as undergrads was not a time of super-intellects. Also I think I read that DJ's wife went to Havard - maybe Marv knew her.
Arkady Renko Posted February 9, 2006 Posted February 9, 2006 Yes, I'm generalizing a bit here... All the Ivy League undergraduate is mostly money and who you know/related to. It is the graduate programs of the Ivy Leagues where all of the smart people come into play. There is a book that came out recently that goes into a ton of detail about this. The period when DJ and GWB were at Yale as undergrads was not a time of super-intellects. Also I think I read that DJ's wife went to Havard - maybe Marv knew her. 599340[/snapback] I think that's a pretty poor generalization. I cannot speak for Harvard and Yale, but that's far less important at a lower Ivy, like Cornell for example. In general, I will say that at any of the "elite" schools there is a large proportion of students who had a leg-up b/c of alumni connections, but there are many more who got in b/c of the merits, however, skewed those merits might be. Certainly at Harvard and Yale what you are describing happened a lot more. However, at least Levy did not get into the master's program (after getting into Harvard Law) b/c of those connections. His background belies that idea. Now, I went to Cornell so I will be a little biased, but bear with me. Here's how I view the whole debate going on in this thread (I was an economics major)... 1. There are lot of people at the Ivies who are complete idiots. 2. There are tons of smart people from other schools. 3. What gets you into an Ivy League school isn't often enough to give you success. Getting great grades and high test scores doesn't test all intelligence and skills. Hard work, drive, smart risk taking and talent get you success, IMO. 4. Getting an Ivy League education and getting poor grades while doing that will usually put you at a disadvantage when competing with the top students from a "lesser" school. On Liberal Arts: 1. History and similar fields requires plenty of intelligence. It taps on skills different from those that an engineer has. (I respect engineering, my father is in the field). 2. An engineer has clearer job choices, but a liberal arts major can develop writing skills that will help in a wide-variety of jobs and graduate fields. 3. The smartest thing to do, if you are good at a technical field and actually will enjoy it, is to major in that and take a lot of classes that develop your writing skills.
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 I think that's a pretty poor generalization. I cannot speak for Harvard and Yale, but that's far less important at a lower Ivy, like Cornell for example. In general, I will say that at any of the "elite" schools there is a large proportion of students who had a leg-up b/c of alumni connections, but there are many more who got in b/c of the merits, however, skewed those merits might be. Certainly at Harvard and Yale what you are describing happened a lot more. However, at least Levy did not get into the master's program (after getting into Harvard Law) b/c of those connections. His background belies that idea. Now, I went to Cornell so I will be a little biased, but bear with me. Here's how I view the whole debate going on in this thread (I was an economics major)... 1. There are lot of people at the Ivies who are complete idiots. 2. There are tons of smart people from other schools. 3. What gets you into an Ivy League school isn't often enough to give you success. Getting great grades and high test scores doesn't test all intelligence and skills. Hard work, drive, smart risk taking and talent get you success, IMO. 4. Getting an Ivy League education and getting poor grades while doing that will usually put you at a disadvantage when competing with the top students from a "lesser" school. On Liberal Arts: 1. History and similar fields requires plenty of intelligence. It taps on skills different from those that an engineer has. (I respect engineering, my father is in the field). 2. An engineer has clearer job choices, but a liberal arts major can develop writing skills that will help in a wide-variety of jobs and graduate fields. 3. The smartest thing to do, if you are good at a technical field and actually will enjoy it, is to major in that and take a lot of classes that develop your writing skills. 599678[/snapback] Well put! At least you know that your tuition dollars were well spent!
Bill from NYC Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 Actually, a Cornell reject... My point is not to denigrate (well, as an engineer I'm sort of obligated to razz the liberal arts majors wherever they have studied ), but to say that I would neither look up, nor look down at any Ivy League undergraduate. However, it appears I may be in the minority, so I am just trying to guage other people's opinions... 598987[/snapback] My opinion is that aside from the crushing cost, having one of your children accepted to, and attending an Ivy League school is something wonderful. It is something that I can take pride in beyond anything in my life that I have been able to accomplish.
Typical TBD Guy Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 I think that's a pretty poor generalization. I cannot speak for Harvard and Yale, but that's far less important at a lower Ivy, like Cornell for example. In general, I will say that at any of the "elite" schools there is a large proportion of students who had a leg-up b/c of alumni connections, but there are many more who got in b/c of the merits, however, skewed those merits might be. Certainly at Harvard and Yale what you are describing happened a lot more. However, at least Levy did not get into the master's program (after getting into Harvard Law) b/c of those connections. His background belies that idea. 599678[/snapback] Yeah, Levy was definitely not rich and well-connected when Harvard accepted him. I don't know much about Jauron's background, though I do know that he attended a prep school in Massachusetts. FYI: you may be interested in knowing that your "lower" Ivy is kicking the crap out of the others here, while holding its own here.
Nanker Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 Damn, I'm jealous, Nanker. You get to eat at the Haven any damn time you want. 599114[/snapback] Ah, Hoagie Haven. That was a family favorite for a long time since moving here. They changed ownership about two years ago and it isn't quite the same. It doesn't hold a candle to Nicks though.
nobody Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 I think that's a pretty poor generalization. I cannot speak for Harvard and Yale, but that's far less important at a lower Ivy, like Cornell for example. In general, I will say that at any of the "elite" schools there is a large proportion of students who had a leg-up b/c of alumni connections, but there are many more who got in b/c of the merits, however, skewed those merits might be. It can't be a pretty poor generalization when you say the same thing: "In general, I will say that at any of the "elite" schools there is a large proportion of students who had a leg-up b/c of alumni connections". What I was saying is that the undergrad programs at the Ivyies are not really that different then any other schools. Of course you will have your percentages of very smart folk, your jocks, your middle of the roads - but you also get a lot more money students and connection students because they are the ones who can afford to pay the Ivy cost.
DC Mom Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 It can't be a pretty poor generalization when you say the same thing: "In general, I will say that at any of the "elite" schools there is a large proportion of students who had a leg-up b/c of alumni connections". What I was saying is that the undergrad programs at the Ivyies are not really that different then any other schools. Of course you will have your percentages of very smart folk, your jocks, your middle of the roads - but you also get a lot more money students and connection students because they are the ones who can afford to pay the Ivy cost. 600076[/snapback] Actually the average income of the family who sends their kid to state school is higher than the that of the ones who send a kid to private school. The reason for this is the generous financial aid available at the latter.
Typical TBD Guy Posted February 10, 2006 Posted February 10, 2006 What I was saying is that the undergrad programs at the Ivyies are not really that different then any other schools. Of course you will have your percentages of very smart folk, your jocks, your middle of the roads - but you also get a lot more money students and connection students because they are the ones who can afford to pay the Ivy cost. 600076[/snapback] At the undergraduate level, the academic programs may be more or less the same, but the caliber of students IN these programs is way different. So Ivy professors will tend to move faster through course material, consequently cover a bit more, and also expect higher levels of work quality than an average university professor would. Rich or poor, your typical 3.0 GPA Harvard undergrad is normally - for an equivalent major - at a MUCH higher level of intellect than your 3.0 GPA undergrad from your run-of-the-mill state university. Whether or not you think I'm taking an Ivy elitist position here is irrelevant because employers and grad schools alike happen to have the same position as mine on this matter. Furthermore, the Ivies have ridiculously large enough financial endowments that they can accept ANY undergrad student they really want from ANY financial background. With the exception of Brown (and they're changing this policy starting next year), all the Ivies offer "need-blind admissions," meaning that they review your application independent of the financial background papers you fill. A poor or middle class applicant who wants to go to an Ivy - and is qualified - and gets accepted - will be given some combination of financial aid to ensure their attendance (private university grants, federal grants like Pell, student loans to a limit of 20K or so, and parent loans also to some limit).
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