Bill from NYC Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 All of that may be true, but you're responding to a post that responded to a post that implied the new regime will have less loyalty and less patience and no incentive to play JP because they didn't draft him. And I responded that's probably not true because the guys that did draft and had incentive didn't show any to him at all. The new regime indeed may give him more of a chance because it is easy to see the skills. 598294[/snapback] Gotcha KTD, but Tortured Soul does raise a legit point. Also, ML and GW are very old, and might lack the patience needed for the long term development of JP. In all, JP will probably need to produce quick results behind a (hopefully) new OL, in a new system, with new coaches. What a friggin mess. All we can do is hope.
Guest BackInDaDay Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 Interesting suggestion. I doubt if Kitna will leave Cincy with the uncertainty regarding the injured Palmer. Imo, Collins is OK....a poor man's Bledsoe. 598287[/snapback] FYI - Heard last night that Cincy signed Doug Johnson as insurance against Kitna leaving.
stinky finger Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 Interesting suggestion. I doubt if Kitna will leave Cincy with the uncertainty regarding the injured Palmer. Imo, Collins is OK....a poor man's Bledsoe. 598287[/snapback] I equate Kitna to Holcomb. Good back ups, that's it. Comparing Collins to Bledsoe is probably accurate. Having said this, I'd prefer Collins to Bledsoe.
Kelly the Dog Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 Yes, he did have a big second year, and did a lot of things well early on, but it took him awhileto mature, and become more consistent 598290[/snapback] True. And it was not like he played lights out in his second year. He was pretty erratic then, too, but he won games, and he made plays when they needed him to, which was the hallmark of his college career. People thought of him as a winner who would scare you with his sandlot style. What people keep forgetting about Losman was the two major reasons that he was not rated on equal footing with Ben and Eli and Rivers was experience and his crappy team that he played on (and not due to him). Losman only started two years of college because of Patrick Ramsey. Eli and Ben I think had three and Rivers four. That is what they meant by "raw". As a junior he was rated talent-wise ahead of those three guys by the NFL college scouting. But the program was in shambles, they almost shut it down and outside of Mewelde and one WR, they had a bunch of crappy players. He was running for his life every game. That is why everyone expected him to take more time to develop than the other two. That is why it was considered more of a risk, because he hadn't played even in college on a solid team in a solid program. He needs to play.
Tortured Soul Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 That's possible. And true, but only in theory. Because TD and MM showed less incentive to ensure JP succeeded than a guy off the street would have. They threw him under Jerome Bettis. And the fact is, he will be expected to produce in his third year by TD or ML or any GM or coach. And any GM or coach will see that he has all the tools and will determine if he has a ten cent head by what they see. If they see brilliance, or progression, they will keep him longer. If they see erratic play and losses and no control of the team, they will jettison him quicker. But TD and MM showed no loyalty at all. 598271[/snapback] I'm not saying I know ML and DJ will do this. I just think it's important to consider. I don't think JP's expectations would be as high for TD this year as they are for ML. (Would Harrington be starting in Detroit last year if Millen wasn't still the GM?) If JP flops, he's TD's mistake, not ML's. Did TD not put the players around JP to help him succeeed? In hindsight, yes, but at the start of the season, it looked like JP was coming into a situation with a great defense, a solid running game, and an improving line. So, yes, I think TD was designing this team with the intention of having JP succeed, and I don't think that is as important to ML.
Tortured Soul Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 One more point: it's the sunken costs principle in economics. A CEO will pour much more money into a failing project or sector if he was responsible for its founding and funding than if he inherited it from his predecessor.
Guest BackInDaDay Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 One more point: it's the sunken costs principle in economics. A CEO will pour much more money into a failing project or sector if he was responsible for its founding and funding than if he inherited it from his predecessor. 598328[/snapback] In my day, they called that the Cover Your Ass (CYA) principle.
Kelly the Dog Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 I don't think JP's expectations would be as high for TD this year as they are for ML. (Would Harrington be starting in Detroit last year if Millen wasn't still the GM?) If JP flops, he's TD's mistake, not ML's. 598320[/snapback] Again, you may be right. My point is that what you said is normally very true. And you gave a perfect example in Millen at Detroit. But what I am saying is that the JP situation in Buffalo was abnormal. One would have expected what you expected, that the GM and coach were going to live or die with their guy and #1 pick. I can't recall how many posters had switched theiur mantra from TD is going to succeed or fail based on the JP Losman pick from the previous Willis McGahee pick. But then the reverse happened. MM and TD didn't show allegiance to their pick, they showed less allegiance to their pick than the man off the street who didnt pick him. That's why I don't believe your theory of JP's expectations for TD versus ML. Because all you're implying (I imagine) is that his hook will be less quick and he will give JP more time. But he already disproved that, in a glaring way. My theory, and it is just a theory too, like yours is, is that ML and DJ will give JP a longer chance than the guys that drafted him, because they will see the talent, and they won't be scrounging to save their professional lives.
Bill from NYC Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 My theory, and it is just a theory too, like yours is, is that ML and DJ will give JP a longer chance than the guys that drafted him, because they will see the talent, and they won't be scrounging to save their professional lives. 598338[/snapback] KTD, do you think that the ages of ML and RW will enter into this equation in any way?
Kelly the Dog Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 KTD, do you think that the ages of ML and RW will enter into this equation in any way? 598348[/snapback] I feel strongly both ways. Surely, Marv's age enters into it because I think he is VERY sharp for an 80 year old but NOT very sharp for an NFL GM. To me, he does not come close to speaking or thinking the way he did 12 years ago when he was still the coach and in the league. People are amazed that he is in such good shape for an 80 year old. That shouldn't be the question or even enter into it. They should ask is he in shape mentally and physically for an NFL GM, and I don't think he is. I hope I'm wrong. So age is going to enter into it because I think he's playing with a 48 card deck, and those 4 cards could make all the difference in the world in his ultimate decision making. As far as your original question goes, I am not sure. I think they're going with Losman. I think Fairchild is the real key, and he is a young thinker and is probably enamored with Losman's possibilities. And I think that JP is no longer a youngster/rookie anymore. he will be expected to play at a much higher level. Marv started Kelly and Collins when they were about Losman's age (24-25). It's just my opinion but I don't think there is any way they don't start out with Losman on opening day, and then they re-evaluate week to week as they go along, which is the normal and the smart thing to do. I think it's foolish to put arbitrary parameters like how many games do we give him in January.
RuntheDamnBall Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 Wow a rookie QB (he was hurt his first year and only played a few snaps so he was a rookie last year) was getting too excited? Did you watch the game on Sunday where they kept talking in the second half how Big Ben needed to calm down in the second half cause he was gettting too excited? How many times can this get reposted? Yes JP still needs some work. Yes JP still needs some more experience. Yes JP needs an o-line, compotent coaches who can see we need to run the ball and an offence a little less complicated for a rookie. Yes he needs to earn the job as the starter rather than have it handed to him (he even said that himself) He showed some signs of being great last year and some signs of being a dud. But after only 8 games we are already calling for a new QB? 598203[/snapback] Some of these dopes were calling for a new QB after 3 or 4 games. One of them was coaching the team at the time, as I recall.
RuntheDamnBall Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 I am not sure how much loyalty JP deserved. They drafted him at great expense, made him a millionaire, and handed him a job as an NFL qb against the apparent objections of team veterans. Their reward was watching him suck. 598283[/snapback] Precisely why the Bills lose. Pittsburgh's team veterans came together and rallied around Roethlisberger. His coach ran, ran, ran the ball and gave Ben less chances, but they were higher-success chances. What do the Bills do in this situation? Whiny vets quit on JP at the first sign of stress, rather than supporting him. Half the team stays with him, half roots for a guy who's proven himself to be nothing more than a backup over a 10-year career. The coach plays musical chairs and calls plays like a 5-year-old. Marv's right, this team needs character in spades.
MDH Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 I think that Matthews might fit well on a team such as Indy or Atlanta.....an insurance policy of sorts if one of their 2 good qbs goes down. The Bills are quite a different story, whereas one of our two qbs is a complete question mark after 2 years, the other having no upside at all. I would much rather have a young guy on the team who might amount to something than Matthews, who simply fills no need for the Bills imo. 598270[/snapback] From everything I've read Mathews is JPs main tutor. He's the guy that goes over and gives JP advice during the games and practices. I understand your desire to want a young guy at the #3 spot but I think that only really applies if you have a Vet QB. With a young QB I think you're better off with a tutor type guy in the 3rd spot. If the Bills want to improve their QBing this year they need to bring in a legit Vet to compete with JP for the starting spot (and dump KH) but I'd leave Mathews at the 3rd spot.
PromoTheRobot Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 So what you are saying is that if you don't win 11 games, make the playoffs, or win a Super Bowl in your first year or two, like Brady and Roethlisberger, then you are a flop? Then what do you make of Carson Palmer and Drew Brees? How dare they take 3-4 years to develop? After all, what's so hard about being a QB in the NFL? Hot pocket mentality = years of frustration and rebuilding. PTR
Kelly the Dog Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 From everything I've read Mathews is JPs main tutor. He's the guy that goes over and gives JP advice during the games and practices. I understand your desire to want a young guy at the #3 spot but I think that only really applies if you have a Vet QB. With a young QB I think you're better off with a tutor type guy in the 3rd spot. If the Bills want to improve their QBing this year they need to bring in a legit Vet to compete with JP for the starting spot (and dump KH) but I'd leave Mathews at the 3rd spot. 598388[/snapback] That very well may be what is going on here. Jauron knows Matthews very well. They could be talking to him about either coming back to be Losman's tutor again, OR, retiring and becoming the QB coach. It's a natural progression for a guy like Matthews. And they could easily be waiting (both the Bills and Matthews) to see just who it is the Bills can get to be the #3. If they cannot find a good young prospect, they stick with Matthews as the #3 and keep a guy on the practice squad like Ochs or some draft choice. If they sign a young free agent for pennies that they want to develop, Matthews quickly retires and they bump him up to coach. Going into the draft, they may easily have a guy they like they think they can get in the late rounds. if he is still there in #6 they take him and Matthews becomes the coach. If he is gone, Matthews stays. It's just an easily imagined scenario.
PromoTheRobot Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 If they sign a young free agent for pennies that they want to develop, Matthews quickly retires and they bump him up to coach. 598408[/snapback] I would nominate Troy Woodbury for that role. I think he has potential. PTR
Tortured Soul Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 Again, you may be right. My point is that what you said is normally very true. And you gave a perfect example in Millen at Detroit. But what I am saying is that the JP situation in Buffalo was abnormal. One would have expected what you expected, that the GM and coach were going to live or die with their guy and #1 pick. I can't recall how many posters had switched theiur mantra from TD is going to succeed or fail based on the JP Losman pick from the previous Willis McGahee pick. But then the reverse happened. MM and TD didn't show allegiance to their pick, they showed less allegiance to their pick than the man off the street who didnt pick him. That's why I don't believe your theory of JP's expectations for TD versus ML. Because all you're implying (I imagine) is that his hook will be less quick and he will give JP more time. But he already disproved that, in a glaring way. My theory, and it is just a theory too, like yours is, is that ML and DJ will give JP a longer chance than the guys that drafted him, because they will see the talent, and they won't be scrounging to save their professional lives. 598338[/snapback] I see what you're getting at - that subbing Holcomb for JP in Week 5 was a sign of lacking allegiance. I view it as a desparate attempt to save the season. Jp's start was going much worse than they expected. They figured that even if he didn't play well, they could still win games. Even still, they went back to JP after four weeks. And afterwards, Mularkey was starting Holcomb after it was a foregone conclusion that TD was done. I think handing JP the starting job at the beginning of the season was a tremendous show of support for him. He was laying his job on the line with JP, and by Week 12, it was clear that he had lost. And my theory on your theory is that there just isn't that much talent there. I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but what some on this board see as talent, I see as that old saying about the broken clock.
Sisyphean Bills Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 I think that Matthews might fit well on a team such as Indy or Atlanta.....an insurance policy of sorts if one of their 2 good qbs goes down. The Bills are quite a different story, whereas one of our two qbs is a complete question mark after 2 years, the other having no upside at all. I would much rather have a young guy on the team who might amount to something than Matthews, who simply fills no need for the Bills imo. 598270[/snapback] Personally, I don't think there is really a huge difference between Holcomb and Matthews.
CoachChuckDickerson Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 I would nominate Troy Woodbury for that role. I think he has potential. PTR 598417[/snapback] I like the kid too. He is in NFL Europe right now, hopefully it will help him progress...
Kelly the Dog Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 I see what you're getting at - that subbing Holcomb for JP in Week 5 was a sign of lacking allegiance. I view it as a desparate attempt to save the season. Jp's start was going much worse than they expected. They figured that even if he didn't play well, they could still win games. Even still, they went back to JP after four weeks. And afterwards, Mularkey was starting Holcomb after it was a foregone conclusion that TD was done. I think handing JP the starting job at the beginning of the season was a tremendous show of support for him. He was laying his job on the line with JP, and by Week 12, it was clear that he had lost. And my theory on your theory is that there just isn't that much talent there. I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but what some on this board see as talent, I see as that old saying about the broken clock. 598421[/snapback] They went back to JP only because KH got hurt, and JP then won the game. That isn't allegiance to him. And then as soon as things went bad again, they got the hook out too quick again. And then after the season was over, they still didn't have allegiance to him, only to themselves. Plus, as I stated in an earlier thread, I think the announced starting of JP in January was ALL about jettisoning Drew and very little about JP is ready. They just thought Drew wasnt the answer after the Pittsburgh debacle. If Drew won that game, or even played well in a loss, he's probably still be the Bills quarterback. It wasn't because they picked Losman as their #1 and had alleginace to him. They would have been thrilled if Losman sat on the bench for three years behind a productive Drew. So I don't think TD was laying his job on the line with Losman at all. They just mismanaged the entire season, suffered crippling losses to injury and confidence, and then panicked themselves into a series of increasingly lousy decisions. And I think you're insane if you cannot see the kid has loads of talent.
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