tennesseeboy Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 I didn't take the opinions personally, but I did notice two top-ten lists that included Travis Henry but not McGahee, including one list with several players ranked below Henry. Nothing against Henry, but McGahee is the better back. 601553[/snapback] Henry averaged better than 4.0 yards per carry with Buffalo, and was named to a Pro Bowl. McGahee ain't done either yet. There is a bottom line here.
Bill from NYC Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 Henry averaged better than 4.0 yards per carry with Buffalo, and was named to a Pro Bowl. McGahee ain't done either yet. There is a bottom line here. 601696[/snapback] Don't leave me hanging TB. Please, tell us the "bottom line." Is Henry a better back than Willis?
tennesseeboy Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 Don't leave me hanging TB. Please, tell us the "bottom line." Is Henry a better back than Willis? 601726[/snapback] So far...no question. In fact I don't think Willis has even established himself as a "good" running back yet. He might be...but he'd better start showing it soon.
The Senator Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 I think Willis would agree that HE is the greatest Bills RB of all time - just ask him.
Bill from NYC Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 So far...no question. In fact I don't think Willis has even established himself as a "good" running back yet. He might be...but he'd better start showing it soon. 601728[/snapback] You might want to look up the fumble stats, as well as the won/loss record of every game Henry has started, both here and on...ahem....Tennessee. In 04, the Bills went on a winning tear the second this nightmare was thankfully benched. TD was not high on my Chritmas List, but dumping this dolt for an early 3rd was a work of pure genius.
stuckincincy Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 TD was not high on my Chritmas List, but dumping this dolt for an early 3rd was a work of pure genius. 601735[/snapback] Indeed it was. Corey Dillion was peddled for the Pat's low 2nd round pick, and Henry was peddled for a high 3rd. Obviously, no comparison between Dillon and Henry. It's a shame about TH's career. He might have ended up a darn good player - and it's inconceivable to me that the Bill's organization didn't try to pound some sense into him.
tennesseeboy Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 You might want to look up the fumble stats, as well as the won/loss record of every game Henry has started, both here and on...ahem....Tennessee. In 04, the Bills went on a winning tear the second this nightmare was thankfully benched. TD was not high on my Chritmas List, but dumping this dolt for an early 3rd was a work of pure genius. 601735[/snapback] Actually Bill...Tennessee won a national championship based on TH's running. Great runners fumble. The Bills had a better win loss record with Henry than they are having with Willis. I don't put Travis in the same class as OJ, Thurman, Cookie or Carlton...but I sure put him way ahead of anything I've seen from WM yet.
Orton's Arm Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 The Bills had a better win loss record with Henry than they are having with Willis. 601753[/snapback] I don't buy that whole won/lost argument for a minute. Was Willis responsible for the departure of Pat Williams, the unsettled QB situation, the Takeo injury, the loss of 40% of the starting line in the 2004-2005 offseason, or the other things that were directly responsible for all those losses this year? Of course not. The yards per carry argument you made earlier is stronger. But even there, the Bills offensive line was putrid in 2005; worse than it's been in some time. Also, Travis's yards per carry benefitted because Kevin Gilbride was pass-happy. Defensive coordinators know that when Gilbride is calling the plays, it's pass first, pass second, and run third. Unless it is, in fact, third down, in which case a pass play will be called. With defensive coordinators defending against the pass first, it's easier to get lots of yards per carry on the rare occassions when running plays are actually called. With Losman under center, defensive coordinators knew the Bills wanted to be a run-first team to take the pressure off the QB. So they ganged up to stop the run, daring Losman to beat them with his arm.
tennesseeboy Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 I agree with you that Willis has a lot of excuses for not being an exceptional running back. However excuses are a lot like you-know-what's in that everybody has one. Excuses aren't going to get him into the top ten. Performance might.
The Dean Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 Willis has top 5 Bills RB TALENT...maybe, top 3. He clearly dosen't belong in the top 5 bakcs yet. But, I think he has a good shot. The only reason Henry can even be mentioned in the same breath with Willis is because TH seemed to play harder, more often. If Willis played with Henry's mentality, he'd be unstoppable, IMO.
Orton's Arm Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 I agree with you that Willis has a lot of excuses for not being an exceptional running back. However excuses are a lot like you-know-what's in that everybody has one. Excuses aren't going to get him into the top ten. Performance might. 601970[/snapback] During the five starts Henry received in 2004, he got a low yards-per-carry average. In Willis's starts, he got a significantly higher average. Does this prove Willis is the better back? No, because the Bills' offensive line got dominated by defenses early in the season, much moreso than it did later on. When evaluating RBs, you have to take into account the hand they were dealt. Rushing for 700 yards under adverse circumstances can be a bigger accomplishment than rushing for 1200 yards behind the Dallas line of the early-to-mid-'90s. I can't think of a much more adverse situation for a RB than the 2005 Bills offense; yet Willis still finished with over 1000 yards.
tennesseeboy Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 During the five starts Henry received in 2004, he got a low yards-per-carry average. In Willis's starts, he got a significantly higher average. Does this prove Willis is the better back? No, because the Bills' offensive line got dominated by defenses early in the season, much moreso than it did later on. When evaluating RBs, you have to take into account the hand they were dealt. Rushing for 700 yards under adverse circumstances can be a bigger accomplishment than rushing for 1200 yards behind the Dallas line of the early-to-mid-'90s. I can't think of a much more adverse situation for a RB than the 2005 Bills offense; yet Willis still finished with over 1000 yards. 601994[/snapback] Everyone has their trials and tribulations. Face it...WM is not a great back. We can argue about TH getting into the top ten, but I don't think he is a GREAT back either. I think OJ is the only GREAT back we have ever had. Thurman and Cookie are probably the only other two approaching greatness.
Orton's Arm Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 Everyone has their trials and tribulations. Face it...WM is not a great back. We can argue about TH getting into the top ten, but I don't think he is a GREAT back either. I think OJ is the only GREAT back we have ever had. Thurman and Cookie are probably the only other two approaching greatness. 602006[/snapback] I realize Willis hasn't yet earned the "great back" label. He seems to have the potential to reach the Thurman level, but I wouldn't put him in the Thurman category based on his accomplishments up to this point.
Oneonta Buffalo Fan Posted February 13, 2006 Author Posted February 13, 2006 I realize Willis hasn't yet earned the "great back" label. He seems to have the potential to reach the Thurman level, but I wouldn't put him in the Thurman category based on his accomplishments up to this point. 602014[/snapback] Let's see the qualities that Willis has so far to be considered another Thurman are 1) Unbelievable stiff arm 2) Power back 3) and he's relatively quick The main things Willis doesn't have that Thurman had was a trip to Superbowl and a team leader.
Guest BackInDaDay Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 Please, let's stop thinking of 'the stiff arm' as an endearing quality in a RB. The 'stiff arm' is used effectively by a larger RB against small LBs and smaller DBs. The reason the guy needs to stiff arm potential tacklers is because he's not quick enough or elusive enough too avoid them. I can't even recall an OJ 'stiff arm'. I asked this question a while ago and never got any responses, so I'll try it again... Can any of you guys and girls, who saw McGahee run with Miami before his injury, please tell me if the running style you see now is the same he had then? I admit not seeing the guy, and seeing him now makes me wonder what the big deal was about. He's a powerful guy that runs straight up and doesn't make anyone miss. Whoopdeefreakindoo. Geez, there's probably only about a few hundred of those fellas suitin' up every Saturday afternoon across America. If I posted this once, I posted it ten times last season - After '04, opponents defended us from the outside/in. Taking away Moulds and Evans outside routes and McGahee's bounces around end. They did this to screw with Losman's head by playing hide and seek with the middle routes. Here's the point... if McGahee had the quickness and elusiveness to make some of the 'pinching' run support miss, it may have opened things up. Any good back can run through a hole, only the best make yards when they shouldn't. When in '05 did McGahee make yards when there was nothing there? If you can count them on one hand, he can't be considered in the same breath with the elite RBs.
Formerly Allan in MD Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 Anyone remember Roger Kochman out of Penn State? He was a good one until he tore up his knee. Same went for big Ben Gregory, who went down in his rookie season. Of course, the biggest unknown had to be poor Ernie Davis. He had the makings to perhaps be the best of them all.
bbb Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 I think Travis broke tackles better than any Bills back ever. I just always knew that first guy had no chance of getting him down.
Tcali Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 Anyone remember Roger Kochman out of Penn State? He was a good one until he tore up his knee. Same went for big Ben Gregory, who went down in his rookie season. Of course, the biggest unknown had to be poor Ernie Davis. He had the makings to perhaps be the best of them all. 602567[/snapback] BEN GREGORY!!!--great call--had completely forgotten him..what the heck happened to him?? he had potential.
sfladave Posted February 14, 2006 Posted February 14, 2006 I asked this question a while ago and never got any responses, so I'll try it again...Can any of you guys and girls, who saw McGahee run with Miami before his injury, please tell me if the running style you see now is the same he had then? I admit not seeing the guy, and seeing him now makes me wonder what the big deal was about. He's a powerful guy that runs straight up and doesn't make anyone miss. Whoopdeefreakindoo. Geez, there's probably only about a few hundred of those fellas suitin' up every Saturday afternoon across America. At Miami Willis had speed, real speed. When he broke out he was gone. He had one of the fastest 40 times in Canes history. Then he hurt his knee and hurt it bad. Since then he has gotten MUCH bigger and...gulp...a little slower. The problem I see with Willis is that when he was in college he could get away dancing because he was so fast and could make people miss him. If he didn't get hurt he might still be able to do that in the NFL. Last year I think he was still concerned about his knee and he ran a style different than what he ran in the past. He didn't try to make drastic cuts, instead he tried the straight ahead and slide outside while using his new found power to gain yards. This year he started reverting back to his old style and it just didn't work. Willis may gain some more of his speed back but I doubt he will ever get it all back. His increased body mass alone will probably prevent this. Edge had a similar injury and it took him just over 2 years to nearly recover his speed, so Willis may just get a little more back. If he does and he learns how to use that speed with his new larger size he could be formidable. I don't question Willis's heart, he has shown me that he has plenty during his rehab. What he needs to show me is that he has learned how to work with what he has. He needs to stop with the dancing and he needs to start hitting the holes without hesitation. A better OL will of course help with this, but more running plays and screens to the outside will also help.
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