Moon selected HOF, or Black QB selected HOF

[Bob Lamb]

"Looking at stats only, how do you keep him out.

 

Still on the issue of stats, Art Monk's stats sure look impressive, but he is still on the outside looking in."

 

Stats are misleading and I am in total agreement with MDH.

 

I have the hindsight (or handicap) of being a little older and remembering a very different NFL - long before expansion diluted the talent pool and the stats. I guess my criteria for the HOF is based more on player "impact" than stats.

 

Who did the other side have to game plan against ?

 

I grew up watching Fran Tarketon - he was "feared" by the other side

 

Walter Payton - Barry Sanders drove the defense nuts

 

Bruce Smith is a sure first rounder based on my criteria and much as I dislike him as a selfish player

 

Warren Moon had his time - just like Mr. Kelly - but IMHO opinion neither had first year selection written on them - part of the selection process involves some marketing and scheming - do they deserve to be there - hell - yes - first time - probably not.

 

That all being said - I did not expect TT to be a first rounder - he had a great career - but he was part of a machine - not the driving force.

 

And for what it matters - Michael Irvin (can) and Andre (will) cry all they want but Art Monk on the outside looking in is a disgrace to the HOF selectors

[Rico]

Drew is going to get alot of consideration for Canton - much of it based on his stats - BECAUSE HE IS A QUARTERBACK.

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Just like Boomer Esiason, right.

 

The big difference is Moon was feared by opposing teams,

Boomer, Vinny, Kreig, & Drew were/are not.

[Bob Lamb]

Back in the day when Bud Grant didn't even heat the benches or allow long shirts Fran T. put up his numbers outdoors in Minn., wind, ice, freezing tmps. Comparing his stats with Moon who played at least one half of his career in a dome is unfair. I think Tarenkton, Farve, etc stats are far more impressive and I would think anyone who threw a football outside in the fall north of the Mason Dixon would concur. Is it harder to throw a 15 yd. out at the Ralph or in the astrodome?

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Then - I guess we should consider his CFL stats also - no dome there

 

Bob Matthews writes a good column (for once)

 

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/p...0334/-1/COLUMNS

[jad1]

I disagree, I think he went in on the 1st-ballot to be the 1st black QB to make it...

JMO, and I may be many things, but I'm not a dittohead.

 

He would not have gotten my vote. Great regular season stats, huge big-game loser.

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Kind of like Dan Fouts and Dan Marino. They voted those two "black" guys in pretty quickly also, even though they were huge big-game losers.

 

There's no racial bias here, just a positional bias. QBs are going to get the benefit of the doubt, especially when they can make something as ridiculous as the 'chuck and duck' offense work.

[billfan63]

Then - I guess we should consider his CFL stats also - no dome there

 

Bob Matthews writes a good column (for once)

 

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/p...0334/-1/COLUMNS

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The topic was NFL stats

[Typical TBD Guy]

I did not expect TT to be a first rounder - he had a great career - but he was part of a machine - not the driving force.

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That is HIGHLY debatable.

[CoachChuckDickerson]

Football is a great sport. Forget the fact that Warren Moon is a convicted wife beater who choked his wife unconscious and punched her in the face, he put up some great stats!

[Lori]

Interesting that some here compare Moon to Tarkenton.

 

FYI, it took Tarkenton -- who retired with just about every career passing record -- three tries before he made it into the Hall. He became eligible in 1984, but wasn't inducted until 1986.

 

A few other QBs of note:

Joe Namath - third year of eligibility

Bob Griese - fifth year of eligibility

Len Dawson - seventh year of eligibility

 

Warren Moon is a first-ballot Hall of Famer, and none of these gentlemen are?

[Bob Lamb]

Interesting that some here compare Moon to Tarkenton.

 

FYI, it took Tarkenton -- who retired with just about every career passing record -- three tries before he made it into the Hall. He became eligible in 1984, but wasn't inducted until 1986.

 

A few other QBs of note:

Joe Namath - third year of eligibility

Bob Griese - fifth year of eligibility

Len Dawson - seventh year of eligibility

 

Warren Moon is a first-ballot Hall of Famer, and none of these gentlemen are?

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The "game" and times have changed as have the selectors and the media (PR) driven criteria - no subjective selection systems such as this is even close to perfect. The "old quard" was pickier IMHO.

 

If Larry Felser had been pitching TT - #34 might have fared better

[Lurker]

Football is a great sport. Forget the fact that Warren Moon is a convicted wife beater who choked his wife unconscious and punched her in the face, he put up some great stats!

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Yeah. Let's pretend we know what's we're talking about, too. He was acquitted in less than an hour by the jury.

[Rico]

I'd like to see Gilbride present him.

[Lori]

The "game" and times have changed as have the selectors and the media (PR) driven criteria - no subjective selection systems such as this is even close to perfect. The "old quard" was pickier IMHO.

 

If Larry Felser had been pitching TT - #34 might have fared better

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I can buy that. After all, I don't think Aikman is a first-ballot guy either -- with a TRUE first-balloter like Emmitt lining up behind him, one of the most dominant o-lines in recent memory, and that defense, Cowboys backups Steve Beuerlein and Bernie Kosar could've won those Super Bowls against Buffalo.

 

Felser vs. Gaughan is a valid point as well. Nothing against Mark, but he just took over the HOF vote what, three or four years ago? Felser's seniority may well have gotten TT over the hump.

 

What I really don't get, though (and Sully mentioned this as well): last year, Young and Marino were the only two modern-era candidates to get the required 80%. So how does Harry Carson NOT make it last year, but all of a sudden becomes a better candidate this year in a much stronger class?

Or were they just tired of listening to him? (FWIW - I thought Carson belonged, but if *I* had Buffalo's vote, I probably would have accomodated his "wish" to be taken off the list when he whined about it....)

[Albany,n.y.]

First off, let me state I'm not a fan of Warren Moon. I don't think he belongs in the hall. I don't think putting up stats because A) he was lucky enough to play in a run and shoot offense that inflated his #s and B) he was durable enough to last a long time makes one a Hall of Famer. I'm also not a fan of wife beaters & (excuse the pun) chokers like Moon was when he got into playoff games.

 

Now, about the racism stuff when he came out of college. The real truth is Warren Moon would have been a mid round pick and instead of having the guts to try to earn a job as a QB in the NFL, he signed a contract with the CFL in March of 1978. The NFL Draft was May 2, 1978 and here's something a lot of people convieniently forget. THE 17TH PICK IN THE 1ST ROUND OF THE 1978 DRAFT WAS DOUG WILLIAMS!

 

So, my question is, if the climate in 1978 was so against Black Quarterbacks, how the hell did Doug Williams go 17th in the whole draft, yet Warren Moon felt he wouldn't be given a fair shot and fled to Canada as a draft dodger. Maybe if Moon had waited until the day of the draft, he would have been drafted a lot higher than he thought. Instead he claimed he had to go to Canada because he was a BlacK QB in the same year a Black QB gets picked in the 1st round.

Also, why did Moon spend 6 years in Canada. I'm sure he could have gotten out sooner if he had the guts to try the NFL sooner, especially after Williams proved to be successful in Tampa Bay.

Warren Moon-Draft Dodger, Wife Beater, & a poor choice for the Hall Of Fame!

[Bob Lamb]

 

"Felser vs. Gaughan is a valid point as well. Nothing against Mark, but he just took over the HOF vote what, three or four years ago? Felser's seniority may well have gotten TT over the hump."

 

 

Felser's last hurrah was JK - and he "won" even though #12 was no more worthy than Troy (t)his first time around.

 

We won't even go to the issue of Mr. Wilson and the selectors

[alg]

Sorry, I disagree. If Moon started in the league as a rookie, he probaly would have thrown for more yards than Marino. The fact that it took so long for him to get to the NFL is a disgrace in itself.

 

This aside, the man is 4th in all time passing yardage. I know that stats don't tell the whole story, but check this out.

 

See what I mean?

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I guess that means that Bledsoe is a near lock to go to the HOF as well, considering there is a better then even chance he passed Moon before retirement. Or how about Vinnie? How can they keep the man out? Stats don't lie....

 

.....riiiiight.....

[CoachChuckDickerson]

Yeah.  Let's pretend we know what's we're talking about, too.  He was acquitted in less than an hour by the jury.

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Here is a little quote from your own article.....

 

 

"She asked prosecutors not to file the misdemeanor charges and drew criticism for her refusal to press charges against her husband, maintaining the incident was her fault."

 

 

My bad for saying he was "convicted"

[ChasBB]

Despite Moon's lack of playoff success, the guy was an incredible QB. He deserves to be in the HOF. So does Thomas.

[justnzane]

First off, let me state I'm not a fan of Warren Moon.  I don't think he belongs in the hall.  I don't think putting up stats because A) he was lucky enough to play in a run and shoot offense that inflated his #s and B) he was durable enough to last a long time makes one a Hall of Famer.  I'm also not a fan of wife beaters & (excuse the pun) chokers like Moon was when he got into playoff games. 

 

Now, about the racism stuff when he came out of college.  The real truth is Warren Moon would have been a mid round pick and instead of having the guts to try to earn a job as a QB in the NFL, he signed a contract with the CFL in March of 1978.  The NFL Draft was May 2, 1978 and here's something a lot of people convieniently forget.  THE 17TH PICK IN THE 1ST ROUND OF THE 1978 DRAFT WAS DOUG WILLIAMS!

 

So, my question is, if the climate in 1978 was so against Black Quarterbacks, how the hell did Doug Williams go 17th in the whole draft, yet Warren Moon felt he wouldn't be given a fair shot and fled to Canada as a draft dodger.  Maybe if Moon had waited until the day of the draft, he would have been drafted a lot higher than he thought.  Instead he claimed he had to go to Canada because he was a BlacK QB in the same year a Black QB gets picked in the 1st round. 

Also, why did Moon spend 6 years in Canada. I'm sure he could have gotten out sooner if he had the guts to try the NFL sooner, especially after Williams proved to be successful in Tampa Bay. 

Warren Moon-Draft Dodger, Wife Beater, & a poor choice for the Hall Of Fame!

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ROTFL... that is a classic post, with a lot of research

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

I guess that means that Bledsoe is a near lock to go to the HOF as well, considering there is a better then even chance he passed Moon before retirement.  Or how about Vinnie?  How can they keep the man out?  Stats don't lie....

 

.....riiiiight.....

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While there are no locks for the HOF as it is not determined by objective stats but by a committee vote (thus it is a popularity contest to some extent) AND it is a hall of FAME not exclusively how good an on field player you were, AND it is the PRO FOOTBALL HoF and not simply the NFL HoF, there are no locks.

 

However, I think Bledsoe makes it in with little problems.

 

He led a team to the SB under Parcells and many QBs have not done this and a few HoF members, AND he player QB in the majority of a must-win game for NE the year Brady led them to an SB win, AND, he has accumulated and will continue to accumulate some gaudy career stats (they are simply career stats but they are gaudy career stats), he was correctly cut by BB despite the two SBs, but resurrected his career with a Pro Bowl performance for the Bills his first year0, ABD despite the fact he stunk his second year but was foolishly extended by TD who then cut him he QB;ed Dallas to a winning season this year,

 

Because this is a vote the big wildcard is who the competition will be. Particularly if he avoids retiring in the same year as Brett Favre, Bledsoe will be the best QB quite easily the first year he is up and I will be quite surprised to not see him in the HoF at some point and likely on his first ballot.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

I know this can and will probably be taken wrong by some, but I'll say it anyway and hope for the best.

 

Warren Moon was elected to the HOF not based on his credentials, but based on a  black quarterback needing to be in the HOF and Moon was available. 

 

Moon was a fine QB, better than most during his day, but clearly not one of the best.  Name one significant playoff game he won.  Never played in the Super Bowl, and I'm not sure if any of his teams ever played in the conference championship game.  All the stats that got him in the Hall were almost entirely based upon regular season games.  So why does he go in the first year of eligibility and not Thurman.

 

Because there are plenty of black running backs in the HOF but not one QB.

 

The same bias that was used as a basis to keep Thurman out yesterday was not applied to Moon.  Some voters said that Thomas was a great back but not one of the best of all times, so he was not viewed as meriting being selected the first year.  But Moon is?

 

This is not intended to start a racial issue, please believe me, but it seems so obvious to me that the voters have made race an issue in selecting Moon.  Does he deserve to be a HOF, probably, at least eventually, but not selected first time out.  I guess it's true, timing is everything.

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I do not think that it is likely that Moon was elected because he is Black. I think the main motivation for the current players of A-A descent who make up a clear majority of current NFL players and the NFLPA folks who represent them have a SHOW ME THE MONEY attitude first and foremost.

 

The HoF is nice but this popularity contest (as it is elected by a committee and there are no objective standards) does little for most players and does not put bread on the table or cars in the garage.

 

Coaching jobs and the Rooney Rule are different as these are real jobs and represent a career track to make some serious money for being involved in a boys game even if you were not a great player (as most NFL players are not).

 

It means nothing financially for their lawyers (like Johnnie Cochran who produced and publicized the study that in part led to the Rooney Rule) of for the agents of the players.

 

If folks allow themselves to be bought off by something like Moon getting the HoF nod then they have been bought off cheaply indeed.

 

I am convinced by the Bob Matthews column (Roch D&C) that lays out a solid case for why Moon should be in when compared to other players.

 

Yet, even if Moon were put in for the most part because of his A-A descent I think that is actually a good reason for him to get in with reasonalble (but certainly not overwhelming) consideration of the reality of race on his career:

 

1. The most impressive thing for me regarding Moon is that he is the FIRST UDFA QB to get in. Now that is impressive to me and a real notable point. Given the times (folks like Jimmy the Greek or MLB exec Al Campanis openly saying the falsehood that A-As lacked the "fundamentals" to be good HCs/Managers) my sense is that part of the reason Moon was not even drafted despite some great college accomplishments at QB was his race. Part of his career was the reality of this issue and it is hard for me to see ignoring reality when considering or judging his career.

 

2. Until Doug Williams broke a barrier with his SB MVP play, outside of the occaisional Marlin Briscoe the NFL flatly refused to allow QBs of A-A descent to get a fair opportunity to show what they could do. Moon deserves a lot of respect from all for putting up his gaudy career numbers and hanging around so long in the face of an NFL that simply discriminated against folks of his race. Just as the vanguard of the small % of HCs of A-A descent like Tony Dungy, Herm Edwards and groundbreaker Aet Shell deserve an extra dose of respect for leading teams to the playoffs despite the NFL putting more value into the good ol boy network feelings that led to the hiring of HC incompetents like Marty Morningwheg or Rich Kotite (and unlike someone who led his team to several playoffs like Art Shell he was actually rehired after his dismal failure). Likewise relatively new coaches Lovie Smith or Marvin Lewis get an extra dose of respect for winning despite being rediculously passed over (particularly Lewis and Dungy). The reality of discrimination of folks of Moon's descent during his time is reprehensible and cannot be ignored.

 

It would be really nice if folks only judged a man by his play or his character. However, the statistical variance in NFL hiring of qualified A-A candidates strongly suggests that discrimination which was open and pretty clear in the past may well still go on.

 

The stats say this is a possibility (there may be many reasons for this variance- some folks foolishly want to claim for example that the growing equality between the % of A-A HCs and A-A in society means this problem is solved and there is no statisitcal variance. However, this view foolishly misses the point because the true statistical comparison is not to societal % but to the % of qualified A-A applicants. This number is not firm or static, but given that a majority of current and recent players are of A-A descent and former players are a significant part of the qualified applicant pool the relevant comparative number is almost certainly higher than the population %.

 

The goal here is to reditect an NFL and NFLPA agreed to history of discrimination by the NFL against potentially qualified A-A applicants. The goal here is NOT to create an HC cadre which looks like America (if you think that the goal is to have the population of qualified HC applicants equal the % ofA-As in America then one should also have the goal of seeing a hair over 50% of the HCs be women). The goal is to create a working employee management tool where workers (players) see that they have a fair shot at getting post play jobs,

 

While troubling that the Rooney Rule did not result in the progress shown in its initial year's I agree with those who say give it another year at least given the good progress intially shown in giving folks a fair opportunity at getting interviews.

 

I think Moon is close enough in this inexact process of HoF election that I am glad he is in. Yet certainly as some measure of the racial progress the NFL owners and players have decided they need to take it really is a nice but trivial matter.