MRW Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 You guys make me laugh. EVERYBODY is crying with what has been going on the last few years but somebody makes a suggestion and everybody is against it. You can't have your cake and eat it too. What success has this franchise have in this time? One season with a ballooned win/loss record that was popped when they actually faced a decent team (Pittsburgh) at home when it counted the most. What a joke! What did Donahoe really accomplished while he was here? Got us out of salary cap jail? Big deal! He purged the whole dam team. Anybody could of done that! Oh, wait, he got us a few marquis names and some aged veterans. The only real problem there was inconsistent results and records. People better be careful about spouting off about this next Brett Farve, he's Donahoe's chosen one. 594000[/snapback] Were you, you know, actually reading people's replies? Because here are the points I saw various posters raise: 1. San Diego would never go for this trade 2. QB is not the primary problem with this team 3. Your plan would postpone dealing with the fundamental problems of this Bills team, namely offensive and defensive line I haven't seen anyone arguing that Losman is going to be a great player. The closest I've seen is that perhaps it's not wise to throw him away after one half-season starting on a pretty poor team. So, sorry if people disagreed with your suggestion, but c'mon. "Bring in a star QB to save the franchise" is your big idea?
Bill from NYC Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 But he has shown a ton. He has shown he has a major league arm. he has shown he handles the ball extremely well, which is a tremendously underrated quality and something Hall of Famers like Dan Marino and future Hall of Famers like Bledsoe never mastered in their entire careers. 593961[/snapback] I like a good party as much as anyone, but there is a time and place to put down the bottle and throw away the joint. The two qbs you mentioned have thrown for well over 100,000 yards, as opposed to JP, who has thrown for perhaps a cool thou. A ton? JP, circumstances notwithstanding, has proven zero. While I don't think that we should address this condition early, I would love to see the Bills cut Matthews, and perhaps use a 3rd or 4th on a kid like Croyle from Alabama, because the Bills should be prepared to face the very real possibility that JP sucks, even if some fans cannot.
nero47 Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 Football teams must be solid in all aspects of the game. Solid Qb's do not, repeat do not generally start and star for almost 4 years, and that is after playing more than eight games. Big Ben has done very well because he joined a team well established in all areas except QB. He was not expected to be a Savior. Eli at NY has a better core on offense in its Line than we do. Dan Marino came from college, played on a good Miami team splitting time with either Strock or Woodley, before taking over and going to his only super bowl in his second season. ( Never had a good running game). Kelly played with the Houston Gamblers before coming here, but still had to wait on the O-Line. Elway played on some of the worst Super bowl teams ever. Qb's are only part of the equation. JP has strengths, but they are useless if the rest of the team sucks (ie Defense and his own O-line.) Let's build the foundation before putting in the trim.
obie_wan Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 Ah, excuse me. How about that they move up for a bluechipper AND have good a back-up? They are not going to be able to keep two potential starting QBs satisfied much longer. 593847[/snapback] who would the good backup be?
JDG Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 You guys make me laugh. EVERYBODY is crying with what has been going on the last few years but somebody makes a suggestion and everybody is against it. Its more like that everyone thought that the suggestion was absurd. JDG
JDG Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 Why the drama? "At this stage of his career?" Dude has had 8 starts on a bad football team with a bad offensive line and incoherent scheme. 593948[/snapback] First of all, the guy basically played 9 games this year. And while JP Losman had some deficiencies in the surrounding coaching and the offensive line, JP Losman was also almost unbelievably bad. The guy completed less than 50% of his passes. That's a lower percentage than *69* other QB's this season, and putting him in the same territory as Tommy Maddox and Mike McMahon - both of whom could be out of the League next season. Even Alex Smith, who played on a team with near-zero talent, and played horrendousely this season managed to complete 60% of his passes in 3 out of his 8 games. JP Losman managed it just once - barely - against the lowly Houston Texans at home. Would I like to see JP Losman to get more time to prove himself? Sure I would. I still hope that JP Losman can be the QB in Buffalo for years to come. And indeed, sometimes QB's who play horribly for 9 games eventually get better. On the other hand, some QB's who play horribly for 9 games go on to play horribly for the rest of their career. If you invest too much time in "developing" a QB, giving him playing time in the hopes that he will get better, pretty much solely because of draft status, you can often times end up with Joey Harrington - and four years of lost seasons. I believe that four years of lost seasons would be disastrous for the Bills. So, what's my point? My point is that JP Losman came from a lower-tier Division I program, and had no real history of winning anything while he was there. He has since come to the NFL and has shown no signs of being able to complete a high enough percentage of his passes to keep our offense on the field and our defense off the field. Moreover, he has shown a disturbing inability to stay healthy in two full football seasons. Therfore, I think that a wise GM would start preparing now for the possibility that JP Losman is a bust. That does *not* mean using a 1st round pick (again!) on a QB, but it does mean putting a potential Plan B into the pipeline. It also means planning for the real possibility that Kelly Holcomb might be a better QB than JP Losman next season, and having to play Holcomb until Losman shows some improvement in practice to justify trotting him out onto the field again with the confidence of his teammates. JDG
JDG Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 I really, seriously, do not understand this kind of statement from anyone who follows football, and I know you do. Losman has shown far more ability and talent and intangibles that suggest he will be a starting quarterback for a playoff caliber team than he hasn't shown. And I don't mean to say he played well because he often played terribly. But he has shown a ton. I agree that JP Losman has shown a lot of things - almost everything, in fact, excpet the ability to throw the ball! Quite simply, if you can't complete close to 60% of your passes in this League your offense is simply not going to stay on the field, and we'll be seeing a bit more of our MVP (Brian Moorman) than we want to. And as long as we're on the subject of David Klingler, can you guess which stat line is Klingler's and which one is Losman's???? Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD | +----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+ 120 265 45.3 1658 6.3 10 12 | 26 103 0 Com Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD | ---------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+ 113 228 49.6 1340 5.9 8 8 | 31 154 0 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Answer: the top line is Klingler's in 11 games, the bottom line is Losman's in 9 games. Losman is *dangerously* close to Klingler territory. And about the only thing worse than Losman being another Klingler, would be Losman being just enough better than Klingler for us to keep throwing him into the breech year after year, when he's just not good enough. I personally hope that that never happens. I think Losman is an exciting player, who if he could learn how to throw and to stay healthy could become one of my favorite players - but in the meantime, if I'm Marv Levy, I'm putting a huge question mark over his head and keeping a Plan B in the back of my mind. JDG
Kelly the Dog Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 I agree that JP Losman has shown a lot of things - almost everything, in fact, excpet the ability to throw the ball! Quite simply, if you can't complete close to 60% of your passes in this League your offense is simply not going to stay on the field, and we'll be seeing a bit more of our MVP (Brian Moorman) than we want to. And as long as we're on the subject of David Klingler, can you guess which stat line is Klingler's and which one is Losman's???? Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD | +----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+ 120 265 45.3 1658 6.3 10 12 | 26 103 0 Com Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD | ---------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+ 113 228 49.6 1340 5.9 8 8 | 31 154 0 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Answer: the top line is Klingler's in 11 games, the bottom line is Losman's in 9 games. Losman is *dangerously* close to Klingler territory. And about the only thing worse than Losman being another Klingler, would be Losman being just enough better than Klingler for us to keep throwing him into the breech year after year, when he's just not good enough. I personally hope that that never happens. I think Losman is an exciting player, who if he could learn how to throw and to stay healthy could become one of my favorite players - but in the meantime, if I'm Marv Levy, I'm putting a huge question mark over his head and keeping a Plan B in the back of my mind. JDG 594084[/snapback] That post is a perfect example of why stats are often totally meaningless and misleading. If JP threw as many Holcomb-esque third down passes short of the first down marker instead of actually trying to make the first down, he would have had a significantly better completion percentage.
Scraps Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 I really, seriously, do not understand this kind of statement from anyone who follows football, and I know you do. Losman has shown far more ability and talent and intangibles that suggest he will be a starting quarterback for a playoff caliber team than he hasn't shown. And I don't mean to say he played well because he often played terribly. But he has shown a ton. He has shown he has a major league arm. he has shown he handles the ball extremely well, which is a tremendously underrated quality and something Hall of Famers like Dan Marino and future Hall of Famers like Bledsoe never mastered in their entire careers. He has has shown excellent touch on the long ball and all other throws. He has shown very good running ability, escapability, sense of the rush, looking downfield while scrambling, speed and running ability. He has shown a great interest in learning the game, and putting the time in to excel. Those things are more than 2/3 of the game. He can fire the ball into tight spots. He can throw with very good accuracy on the run. That doesn't mean to imply that he is shoo-in for success. Far from it. But the kid has it all. What he hasn't shown, and what is going to make or break him, is an ability to read defenses, an ability to know when to take what you can get, an ability to lead a team and put them on your back, an ability to relax in the pocket and just throw the ball with accuracy and without thinking so much. An ability to not risk turnovers deep in your own end. That is all stuff that can be learned through experience, which he hasn't been given nearly enough of. The stuff he has shown often isn't stuff that can be learned. He may not ever get to the point that the game slows down for him and he hits his mark. But if he does, and to me, most signs point to that, he's going to be a very good quarterback in this league. And hopefully on the Bills. This isn't an Andre Ware or David Klinger or Heath Shuler or Ryan leaf thing we are seeing here. He has already shown all he needs to show. What he has to learn is to do it for a full game, or several games in a row, and then a full season. 593961[/snapback] What drugs do you do before games? From what I've seen, he is horribly innaccurate. I have no faith in his long ball. When he has thrown long, he has generally lofted it. Granted he was set up to fail, given the offensive line he was forced to play behind. He was essentially a rookie. I'm all for giving him time to develop, but I must admit, I lost confidence in him as the season wore on.
sfladave Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 What drugs do you do before games? From what I've seen, he is horribly innaccurate. I have no faith in his long ball. When he has thrown long, he has generally lofted it. Granted he was set up to fail, given the offensive line he was forced to play behind. He was essentially a rookie. I'm all for giving him time to develop, but I must admit, I lost confidence in him as the season wore on. 594294[/snapback] I actually gained confidence in him as the season wore on. He seemed to gain confidence, especially after he started to loosen up and stopped worrying about making mistakes. What bothered me was that in every game that JP played well in the first half, Houston, Miami and KC, his numbers plummeted in the 2nd half. I do not know if it was the play calling or adjustments made by the other teams, but he simply was not as effective in the 2nd half. JP is surely not a shoe in as the savior of the Bills, but predicting his ultimate demise is also premature. We have so many needs to address that dramatic moves at the QB position simply will not happen. Hopefully we will be able to dramatically upgrade our OL and DL. The QB play will have an impact on our record but not nearly as much as the play of our lines and our play calling will have. I will say it again, put the horse back in front of the cart!
Fan in San Diego Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 Before we throw JP Losman under the bus. Can we see how he does with a better OL and a better OC ? Sheesh guys, he's played 8 games behind a crap OL and a crap OC ! Get real here. He's shown a lot for having a little to work with.
Scraps Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 I actually gained confidence in him as the season wore on. He seemed to gain confidence, especially after he started to loosen up and stopped worrying about making mistakes. What bothered me was that in every game that JP played well in the first half, Houston, Miami and KC, his numbers plummeted in the 2nd half. I do not know if it was the play calling or adjustments made by the other teams, but he simply was not as effective in the 2nd half. JP is surely not a shoe in as the savior of the Bills, but predicting his ultimate demise is also premature. We have so many needs to address that dramatic moves at the QB position simply will not happen. Hopefully we will be able to dramatically upgrade our OL and DL. The QB play will have an impact on our record but not nearly as much as the play of our lines and our play calling will have. I will say it again, put the horse back in front of the cart! 594368[/snapback] Dave Throughout this thread I believe I have been putting the horse back in front of the cart. I've been saying that our problems have been on offensive and defensive lines and it is too early to give up on Losman. Just because I'm not sold on the guy doesn't mean I don't recognize the problems on this team. BTW, I think Losman got extremely lucky in the first half of the Miami game. He lofted long balls that receivers had to slow down to catch. If Miami's DB's hadn't been so soundly beaten by Evans, I think two of those would have been picked off.
Kelly the Dog Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 Dave Throughout this thread I believe I have been putting the horse back in front of the cart. I've been saying that our problems have been on offensive and defensive lines and it is too early to give up on Losman. Just because I'm not sold on the guy doesn't mean I don't recognize the problems on this team. BTW, I think Losman got extremely lucky in the first half of the Miami game. He lofted long balls that receivers had to slow down to catch. If Miami's DB's hadn't been so soundly beaten by Evans, I think two of those would have been picked off. 594374[/snapback] Hey, it's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Personally, I think that is just insane criticism. Seriously. Evans is supposed to run a pattern, Losman is supposed to deliver the ball to him on time. Losman did his job almost as well as he could possibly do it on both of those long throws. Evans barely had to slow down and he is one of the 2-3 fastest players on the team. He caught them while running, in stride, for long gainers and touchdowns. The Miami defenders may have made mediocre plays but a bad pass would have been picked off. A good pass is a completion and a TD. On his third TD, in ONE QUARTER, he gunned the ball between three defenders for a score. It was a perfect pass. I really don't see how anyone can complain about long completed passes for scores when the QB puts the ball on the money 40 yards downfield.
Scraps Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 Hey, it's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Personally, I think that is just insane criticism. Seriously. Evans is supposed to run a pattern, Losman is supposed to deliver the ball to him on time. Losman did his job almost as well as he could possibly do it on both of those long throws. Evans barely had to slow down and he is one of the 2-3 fastest players on the team. He caught them while running, in stride, for long gainers and touchdowns. The Miami defenders may have made mediocre plays but a bad pass would have been picked off. A good pass is a completion and a TD. On his third TD, in ONE QUARTER, he gunned the ball between three defenders for a score. It was a perfect pass. I really don't see how anyone can complain about long completed passes for scores when the QB puts the ball on the money 40 yards downfield.594380[/snapback] People did it routinely when Flutie was throwing the ball.
Kelly the Dog Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 People did it routinely when Flutie was throwing the ball. 594384[/snapback] Nice reason. Go to buffalobills.com, click on multimedia, and then highlights from the game. You can watch them again. On the first one, it was virtually a perfect pass hitting Evans in stride over his shoulder with a Dolphin right on him. A foot shorter or longer and it probably was not a TD. The second one was a short pass but still Evans caught it while running and if he didnt would never have made it for a TD. The third was a bullet and perfect pass.
sfladave Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 Dave Throughout this thread I believe I have been putting the horse back in front of the cart. I've been saying that our problems have been on offensive and defensive lines and it is too early to give up on Losman. Just because I'm not sold on the guy doesn't mean I don't recognize the problems on this team. BTW, I think Losman got extremely lucky in the first half of the Miami game. He lofted long balls that receivers had to slow down to catch. If Miami's DB's hadn't been so soundly beaten by Evans, I think two of those would have been picked off. 594374[/snapback] Scraps I was just countering your thought that you lost confidence in JP as the season wore on. With the exception of a few hot pocket coaster riders, most people here know that our priority is fixing our lines. I am by no means sold on JPs future success either. He needs to come into camp and win the starting job. Then he has to show that he has the ability to read defenses and have the ability to lead this team. Then and only then can people start talking with confidence about his ability to be the real deal. Will that happen? I hope so but I do not know. He already has the skill players around him, if we give him a good OL I think he has a better than 50% chance to prove he can be successful.
The Dean Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 Scraps I was just countering your thought that you lost confidence in JP as the season wore on. With the exception of a few hot pocket coaster riders, most people here know that our priority is fixing our lines. I am by no means sold on JPs future success either. He needs to come into camp and win the starting job. Then he has to show that he has the ability to read defenses and have the ability to lead this team. Then and only then can people start talking with confidence about his ability to be the real deal. Will that happen? I hope so but I do not know. He already has the skill players around him, if we give him a good OL I think he has a better than 50% chance to prove he can be successful. 594396[/snapback] "hot pocket coaster riders" I don't know what that means, but I know who you're talking aboout...and it IS funny. Good solid post!
JAMIEBUF12 Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 maybe get aj smith on the phone to offer him a job..................but nfw do we try and trade jp for drew....................j.p has played 1/2 of one season so far and people want to go in another direction already.give the kid a chance he will turn oiy just fine!
Scraps Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 Nice reason. Go to buffalobills.com, click on multimedia, and then highlights from the game. You can watch them again. On the first one, it was virtually a perfect pass hitting Evans in stride over his shoulder with a Dolphin right on him. A foot shorter or longer and it probably was not a TD. The second one was a short pass but still Evans caught it while running and if he didnt would never have made it for a TD. The third was a bullet and perfect pass. 594391[/snapback] What kind of connection do you need? All I saw was a series of still photos with voice over.
Kelly the Dog Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 What kind of connection do you need? All I saw was a series of still photos with voice over. 594429[/snapback] if you're in the multimedia section, two thirds of the way up on the right you will see "watch video", when you click on that, in the same box, you should see "game highlights" and it lists all the games.
Recommended Posts