Dr. K Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 From Juan Cole, professor of history at U. Michigan: http://www.juancole.com/2004_09_01_juancol...582366638394688 Wednesday, September 22, 2004 If America were Iraq, What would it be Like? President Bush said Tuesday that the Iraqis are refuting the pessimists and implied that things are improving in that country. What would America look like if it were in Iraq's current situation? The population of the US is over 11 times that of Iraq, so a lot of statistics would have to be multiplied by that number. Thus, violence killed 300 Iraqis last week, the equivalent proportionately of 3,300 Americans. What if 3,300 Americans had died in car bombings, grenade and rocket attacks, machine gun spray, and aerial bombardment in the last week? That is a number greater than the deaths on September 11, and if America were Iraq, it would be an ongoing, weekly or monthly toll. And what if those deaths occurred all over the country, including in the capital of Washington, DC, but mainly above the Mason Dixon line, in Boston, Minneapolis, Salt Lake City, and San Francisco? What if the grounds of the White House and the government buildings near the Mall were constantly taking mortar fire? What if almost nobody in the State Department at Foggy Bottom, the White House, or the Pentagon dared venture out of their buildings, and considered it dangerous to go over to Crystal City or Alexandria? What if all the reporters for all the major television and print media were trapped in five-star hotels in Washington, DC and New York, unable to move more than a few blocks safely, and dependent on stringers to know what was happening in Oklahoma City and St. Louis? What if the only time they ventured into the Midwest was if they could be embedded in Army or National Guard units? There are estimated to be some 25,000 guerrillas in Iraq engaged in concerted acts of violence. What if there were private armies totalling 275,000 men, armed with machine guns, assault rifles (legal again!), rocket-propelled grenades, and mortar launchers, hiding out in dangerous urban areas of cities all over the country? What if they completely controlled Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, Denver and Omaha, such that local police and Federal troops could not go into those cities? What if, during the past year, the Secretary of State (Aqilah Hashemi), the President (Izzedine Salim), and the Attorney General (Muhammad Baqir al-Hakim) had all been assassinated? What if all the cities in the US were wracked by a crime wave, with thousands of murders, kidnappings, burglaries, and carjackings in every major city every year? What if the Air Force routinely (I mean daily or weekly) bombed Billings, Montana, Flint, Michigan, Watts in Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Anacostia in Washington, DC, and other urban areas, attempting to target "safe houses" of "criminal gangs", but inevitably killing a lot of children and little old ladies? What if, from time to time, the US Army besieged Virginia Beach, killing hundreds of armed members of the Christian Soldiers? What if entire platoons of the Christian Soldiers militia holed up in Arlington National Cemetery, and were bombarded by US Air Force warplanes daily, destroying thousands of graves and even pulverizing the Vietnam Memorial over on the Mall? What if the National Council of Churches had to call for a popular march of thousands of believers to converge on the National Cathedral to stop the US Army from demolishing it to get at a rogue band of the Timothy McVeigh Memorial Brigades? What if there were virtually no commercial air traffic in the country? What if many roads were highly dangerous, especially Interstate 95 from Richmond to Washington, DC, and I-95 and I-91 up to Boston? If you got on I-95 anywhere along that over 500-mile stretch, you would risk being carjacked, kidnapped, or having your car sprayed with machine gun fire. What if no one had electricity for much more than 10 hours a day, and often less? What if it went off at unpredictable times, causing factories to grind to a halt and air conditioning to fail in the middle of the summer in Houston and Miami? What if the Alaska pipeline were bombed and disabled at least monthly? What if unemployment hovered around 40%? What if veterans of militia actions at Ruby Ridge and the Oklahoma City bombing were brought in to run the government on the theory that you need a tough guy in these times of crisis? What if municipal elections were cancelled and cliques close to the new "president" quietly installed in the statehouses as "governors?" What if several of these governors (especially of Montana and Wyoming) were assassinated soon after taking office or resigned when their children were taken hostage by guerrillas? What if the leader of the European Union maintained that the citizens of the United States are, under these conditions, refuting pessimism and that freedom and democracy are just around the corner? posted by Juan @ 9/22/2004 06:53:26 AM
VABills Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 I would think if the US was ruled by an oppressive government we would rise up and overthrow him, without someone else needing to come in and do it for us. Oh thats right, we already did, 230 years ago.
chicot Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 I saw that article when it was posted. In general I find Juan Cole's site very interesting and informative, though I know his views would outrage some of the right-wingers on this board.
gmac17 Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 it makes some excellent points. One thing I think about some times is what if our country was fully of Arab soldiers. Imagine if you go to NYC and there are all these guys with guns from another country, who are a different religion than 80% of the country etc. etc. Even though they are there with good intentions, it would be really, really strange.
MichFan Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 What a stupid, one-sided article. I'm embarrased to say the author works at my alma mater. Of course, I don't see any of these what-ifs mentioned: - 300,000+ citizens were killed in a chemical weapons attack launched by our own military - We attacked Mexico and a combined 10,000,000+ died in that war - We invaded and briefly took over Canada for their oil reserves -- killing and raping their citizens in the process for fun -- and left only when forced out. To this day we still claim Canada is ours and it is only a matter of time until we go back in. - 11,000,000 children starved to death in the 90's because we had no money to feed them, yet our ruling family built dozens of palaces around the country. Then we learned the U.N. was siphoning off tens of billions of dollars from our exports that were supposed to feed these children. - 100,000+ citizens each year were raped, tortured, executed, and/or ground into human hamburger each year. - We were forced to vote for our leader or be subjected to said rape, torture, execution, and/or grinding. - Mass graves with 200,000+ bodies were discovered all over the country Given that frame of reference, maybe the things listed in the article wouldn't seem quite as awful. Apparantly this scholar doesn't understand the basic underpinnings in this story -- the power of freedom and hope on the psychology of a society.
EndZoneCrew Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 What a stupid, one-sided article. I'm embarrased to say the author works at my alma mater. Of course, I don't see any of these what-ifs mentioned: - 300,000+ citizens were killed in a chemical weapons attack launched by our own military - We attacked Mexico and a combined 10,000,000+ died in that war - We invaded and briefly took over Canada for their oil reserves -- killing and raping their citizens in the process for fun -- and left only when forced out. To this day we still claim Canada is ours and it is only a matter of time until we go back in. - 11,000,000 children starved to death in the 90's because we had no money to feed them, yet our ruling family built dozens of palaces around the country. Then we learned the U.N. was siphoning off tens of billions of dollars from our exports that were supposed to feed these children. - 100,000+ citizens each year were raped, tortured, executed, and/or ground into human hamburger each year. - We were forced to vote for our leader or be subjected to said rape, torture, execution, and/or grinding. - Mass graves with 200,000+ bodies were discovered all over the country 42831[/snapback] YAWN
VABills Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 YAWN 42838[/snapback] So these facts don't matter to the overall premise of the "BIG PICTURE". I guess it is nice to have blinders on to half the facts. What color sunlasses you have on? Must be real dark since you can hardly see anything.
Dr. K Posted September 23, 2004 Author Posted September 23, 2004 What a stupid, one-sided article. I'm embarrased to say the author works at my alma mater. Of course, I don't see any of these what-ifs mentioned: - 300,000+ citizens were killed in a chemical weapons attack launched by our own military - We attacked Mexico and a combined 10,000,000+ died in that war - We invaded and briefly took over Canada for their oil reserves -- killing and raping their citizens in the process for fun -- and left only when forced out. To this day we still claim Canada is ours and it is only a matter of time until we go back in. - 11,000,000 children starved to death in the 90's because we had no money to feed them, yet our ruling family built dozens of palaces around the country. Then we learned the U.N. was siphoning off tens of billions of dollars from our exports that were supposed to feed these children. - 100,000+ citizens each year were raped, tortured, executed, and/or ground into human hamburger each year. - We were forced to vote for our leader or be subjected to said rape, torture, execution, and/or grinding. - Mass graves with 200,000+ bodies were discovered all over the country Given that frame of reference, maybe the things listed in the article wouldn't seem quite as awful. Apparantly this scholar doesn't understand the basic underpinnings in this story -- the power of freedom and hope on the psychology of a society. 42831[/snapback] You are deliberately missing the point. This essay is in response to Bush's (and his administration's) assertion that things are going fine in Iraq right now, that they have a plan and it is working. That assertion is absurd; Bush and the neocons are either living in a fantasyland or lying outright. And I might say the same about your assertion of "the power of freedom and hope on the psychology of a society." Where do you see this power working in Iraq today? Richard Perle said a year ago that by this time the grateful citizens would have named a square in Baghdad after George Bush. Right. And monkeys are flying out of his ass.
MichFan Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 YAWN Apparently reading facts and having things put into their proper context bore you. Sorry if I created any congitive dissonance in your DNC programmed state of consciousness.
GG Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 You are deliberately missing the point. This essay is in response to Bush's (and his administration's) assertion that things are going fine in Iraq right now, that they have a plan and it is working. That assertion is absurd; Bush and the neocons are either living in a fantasyland or lying outright. And I might say the same about your assertion of "the power of freedom and hope on the psychology of a society." Where do you see this power working in Iraq today? Richard Perle said a year ago that by this time the grateful citizens would have named a square in Baghdad after George Bush. Right. And monkeys are flying out of his ass. 42868[/snapback] But apparently any references to the US Revolutionary War, with some Americans siding with British, or French coming over to aid the revolutionaries is not valid. Nor, I guess the little conflict between the States to cement the Union a few generations later could be used an analogy. The essay is full of it, because it is not appropriate without introducing the analogius background. If he wanted to make a point about Iraqis joining the insurgency, he at least should have used the proper contextual references.
KD in CA Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 You are deliberately missing the point. This essay is in response to Bush's (and his administration's) assertion that things are going fine in Iraq right now, that they have a plan and it is working. That assertion is absurd; Bush and the neocons are either living in a fantasyland or lying outright. And I might say the same about your assertion of "the power of freedom and hope on the psychology of a society." Where do you see this power working in Iraq today? Richard Perle said a year ago that by this time the grateful citizens would have named a square in Baghdad after George Bush. Right. And monkeys are flying out of his ass. 42868[/snapback] Good grief, are you joking? What do you expect him to say six weeks before his re-election? I'm sure if Bush came out and discussed the nature of the serious problems in Iraq, you lefties would be all for having serious dialogue about how to fix the problems and not use it as an opportunity to jump all over him and get your boy Kerry voted in. This 'essay' is stevestojan; MichFan hit the nail on the head by pointing out the absurdity of the comparison. Politics is a two way street....let's not intentionally ignore that fact.
MichFan Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 You are deliberately missing the point. This essay is in response to Bush's (and his administration's) assertion that things are going fine in Iraq right now, that they have a plan and it is working. That assertion is absurd; Bush and the neocons are either living in a fantasyland or lying outright. And I might say the same about your assertion of "the power of freedom and hope on the psychology of a society." Where do you see this power working in Iraq today? Richard Perle said a year ago that by this time the grateful citizens would have named a square in Baghdad after George Bush. Right. And monkeys are flying out of his ass. No, you and this article are deliberately missing the point. You absolutely cannot make an analogy between Iraq and America the way this author does because our cultures and our historical frames of reference are completely different. All Americans would shudder at the visions invoked in this article because we compare them to the freedoms we enjoy today. We would see a HOPELESSNESS in the situation. Iraqis have at least three predominant cultures (Kurds, Sunnis, Shiites) who each have their own impressions of what is happening. I doubt anyone over there is happy about the security situation right now, but at least two of these cultures see a HOPE for the future amidst the situation. There is a huge difference between the two.
erynthered Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 Here's a quote from Juan Cole "AlJazeera is excellent on Iraq news" Okiedokie
chicot Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 Here's a quote from Juan Cole "AlJazeera is excellent on Iraq news" Okiedokie 42904[/snapback] It is.
erynthered Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 It is. 42959[/snapback] Dan Rather might be available soon, think they could find a spot for him?
MichFan Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 It is. Nice of them to opt out of airing a hostage's wife's videotaped plea for her husband's life because it wasn't compelling enough to interrupt their scheduled programming. "Excellent" news my arse.
Alaska Darin Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 You are deliberately missing the point. This essay is in response to Bush's (and his administration's) assertion that things are going fine in Iraq right now, that they have a plan and it is working. That assertion is absurd; Bush and the neocons are either living in a fantasyland or lying outright. And I might say the same about your assertion of "the power of freedom and hope on the psychology of a society." Where do you see this power working in Iraq today? Richard Perle said a year ago that by this time the grateful citizens would have named a square in Baghdad after George Bush. Right. And monkeys are flying out of his ass. 42868[/snapback] So what? None of you people seems to know much about history. There is no way to get 100% of a conquered nation's populace to behave in a nice manner. To expect it in a place that was so lawless and brutal (on the side of the government, anyway) is foolish. What this war means in the grand scheme of things won't be known for 20 years. It's very easy for John Kerry and the rest of you liberals to pretend you know what the hell you're talking about when you're only using hindsight. It's more than a little ironic that you accuse those on the other side of the aisle of "living in a fantasyland" when that's pretty much the summary of your politics.
VABills Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 So what? None of you people seems to know much about history. There is no way to get 100% of a conquered nation's populace to behave in a nice manner. To expect it in a place that was so lawless and brutal (on the side of the government, anyway) is foolish. What this war means in the grand scheme of things won't be known for 20 years. It's very easy for John Kerry and the rest of you liberals to pretend you know what the hell you're talking about when you're only using hindsight. It's more than a little ironic that you accuse those on the other side of the aisle of "living in a fantasyland" when that's pretty much the summary of your politics. 43053[/snapback] Wow great minds think alike. I just respond to exiled the sameway in the EC thread. Long term folks, long term. http://205.134.161.85/forums/index.php?sho...indpost&p=43000
chicot Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 Dan Rather might be available soon, think they could find a spot for him? 42963[/snapback] Well, they are starting up an English language channel ....
VABills Posted September 23, 2004 Posted September 23, 2004 Dan Rather might be available soon, think they could find a spot for him? 42963[/snapback] I believe they have run out of hostages, I nominate Dan as the next choice.
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