Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 26, 2006 Posted January 26, 2006 Proof beyond the shadow of a doubt that people in the Muslim World in general and the Palestinian Arabs specifically desire the complete annihilation of Israel, and the wholesale slaughter of the jews who live there. Hamas' mission statement, if you can call it that, is the destruction of Israel. Now, it's public. it's out in the open. Now there can be no logical refutation of the truth. In my opinion, this is going to have to be settled one way or the other. Here's to hoping it's the Israelis who secure ultimate victory, because I believe the alternative to be far worse. EDIT: I also found this quote very telling... "U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan congratulated the Palestinian people on the peaceful elections, which he views as an important step toward a Palestinian state." Apparently the UN, despite its "neutrality" really does have a horse in the race.
pdh1 Posted January 26, 2006 Posted January 26, 2006 Proof beyond the shadow of a doubt that people in the Muslim World in general and the Palestinian Arabs specifically desire the complete annihilation of Israel, and the wholesale slaughter of the jews who live there. Hamas' mission statement, if you can call it that, is the destruction of Israel. Now, it's public. it's out in the open. Now there can be no logical refutation of the truth. In my opinion, this is going to have to be settled one way or the other. Here's to hoping it's the Israelis who secure ultimate victory, because I believe the alternative to be far worse. EDIT: I also found this quote very telling... "U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan congratulated the Palestinian people on the peaceful elections, which he views as an important step toward a Palestinian state." Apparently the UN, despite its "neutrality" really does have a horse in the race. 584274[/snapback] But they have done such a great job with Gaza. They said "just give us the land". Well, they got it, now it's in turmoil.
UConn James Posted January 26, 2006 Posted January 26, 2006 That far worse alternative being that the U.S. will be forced to clean up the mess. Like always. Don't be surprised when Israel elects a true hard-liner in retaliation, and the sh-- hits the fan. Where do you get off disagreeing with our president, who says that we must forcibly spread democracy (and this was a democratic election by all accounts) b/c 'no two democracies have ever had wars against each other.' Along come Iran and "Palestine" to prove him wrong on the last reason left why we absolutely, positively needed to invade Iraq.
chicot Posted January 26, 2006 Posted January 26, 2006 Proof beyond the shadow of a doubt that people in the Muslim World in general and the Palestinian Arabs specifically desire the complete annihilation of Israel, and the wholesale slaughter of the jews who live there. Hamas' mission statement, if you can call it that, is the destruction of Israel. Now, it's public. it's out in the open. Now there can be no logical refutation of the truth. In my opinion, this is going to have to be settled one way or the other. Here's to hoping it's the Israelis who secure ultimate victory, because I believe the alternative to be far worse. EDIT: I also found this quote very telling... "U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan congratulated the Palestinian people on the peaceful elections, which he views as an important step toward a Palestinian state." Apparently the UN, despite its "neutrality" really does have a horse in the race. 584274[/snapback] ? I think the UN statement was merely to do with the fact that the election was peaceful and fair and would have been made had the election gone the other way. As for Hamas winning the election, I hardly see how the result of a Palestinian election is proof positive that "people in the muslim world in general" desire the "complete annihilation of Israel and the wholesale slaughter of the Jews who live there". Was the muslim world in general voting? The muslim world in general probably does wish for the end of Israel in it's current state, that is a state in which any Jew regardless of where they were born or lived has a greater right to settle in Israel than Palestinians who have lived in that land for generations. That does not mean that they wish for "the wholesale slaughter of the Jews who live there" - the number who actually want that is likely to be tiny. Many muslims would like to see Israel/Palestine as a multi-ethnic state with equal rights for Jews and muslims, some would probably like to see the Jews expelled in much the same way that the Palestinians were driven out. I certainly don't agree with the latter view but even that is not the same as wishing for "wholesale slaughter". Perhaps the Palestinians voted for Hamas due to it's hardline position on Israel, perhaps they voted for it because it puts a lot of money into social programs and is untainted by corruption, unlike the current PA. Perhaps it was a bit of both or perhaps it was some other reason. Whatever, I wouldn't be too suprised if there was a softening of Hamas' stance now that they are in power. It is easy to take a very hard line when you are in opposition, it is somewhat different when you have to deal with the realities of government. Ariel Sharon was thought of as a hardliner before he actually became prime minister and yet now many hardliners regard him as a traitor.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 26, 2006 Author Posted January 26, 2006 That far worse alternative being that the U.S. will be forced to clean up the mess. Like always. Don't be surprised when Israel elects a true hard-liner in retaliation, and the sh-- hits the fan. Where do you get off disagreeing with our president, who says that we must forcibly spread democracy (and this was a democratic election by all accounts) b/c 'no two democracies have ever had wars against each other.' Along come Iran and "Palestine" to prove him wrong on the last reason left why we absolutely, positively needed to invade Iraq. 584326[/snapback] Well, all righty then. Personally, I could have given less of a rat's ass who the Palestinian Arabs elected. You knew ssomething like this was going to happen, didn't you? The main thing is, now we get to see what the Palestinians REALLY want. And I do honestly believe that before this crisis gets any better it's going to get a LOT worse.
Wacka Posted January 26, 2006 Posted January 26, 2006 It already is- Unrest in Palestinian "Parliament"
UConn James Posted January 26, 2006 Posted January 26, 2006 The main thing is, now we get to see what the Palestinians REALLY want. And I do honestly believe that before this crisis gets any better it's going to get a LOT worse. 584356[/snapback] What the Palestineans want is: Death. Death. Death. Death! Death! Death! Death! And then there's those of us who don't think it'll get "better." It's a downward spiral. All the more reason for us to get more and more uninvolved.
The Merovingian Posted January 27, 2006 Posted January 27, 2006 Is there anyone who honestly thinks that the palestinians want anything other then total elimination of the Jews as a people? Really, just because hamas won an election are they going to all the sudden drop thier stated reason for existing? I see no way that the USA can lead one dollar of support to them now that this terroist regime is in place. Unfourtunately, Isreal is going to do what they have to do to defend themselves and we will no doubt come to their aid when they need it. Clearly it will not be pretty, and it will not end soon. This is what the palestinian people have choosen for themselves. The results of their leaders actions will be squarely on thier shoulders. If you elect terrorists to represent you, then you clearly do not have high expectations of yourself or your people as a whole. They now will have to live with the consequences. good luck.
TheMadCap Posted January 28, 2006 Posted January 28, 2006 Is there anyone who honestly thinks that the palestinians want anything other then total elimination of the Jews as a people? Really, just because hamas won an election are they going to all the sudden drop thier stated reason for existing? I see no way that the USA can lead one dollar of support to them now that this terroist regime is in place. Unfourtunately, Isreal is going to do what they have to do to defend themselves and we will no doubt come to their aid when they need it. Clearly it will not be pretty, and it will not end soon. This is what the palestinian people have choosen for themselves. The results of their leaders actions will be squarely on thier shoulders. If you elect terrorists to represent you, then you clearly do not have high expectations of yourself or your people as a whole. They now will have to live with the consequences. good luck. 586081[/snapback] are you related to Jesus?
/dev/null Posted January 28, 2006 Posted January 28, 2006 It already is- Unrest in Palestinian "Parliament" 584388[/snapback] Good, if they start killing each other maybe they'll leave us alone
Brian Cohen Posted January 28, 2006 Posted January 28, 2006 ? I think the UN statement was merely to do with the fact that the election was peaceful and fair and would have been made had the election gone the other way. As for Hamas winning the election, I hardly see how the result of a Palestinian election is proof positive that "people in the muslim world in general" desire the "complete annihilation of Israel and the wholesale slaughter of the Jews who live there". Was the muslim world in general voting? The muslim world in general probably does wish for the end of Israel in it's current state, that is a state in which any Jew regardless of where they were born or lived has a greater right to settle in Israel than Palestinians who have lived in that land for generations. That does not mean that they wish for "the wholesale slaughter of the Jews who live there" - the number who actually want that is likely to be tiny. Many muslims would like to see Israel/Palestine as a multi-ethnic state with equal rights for Jews and muslims, some would probably like to see the Jews expelled in much the same way that the Palestinians were driven out. I certainly don't agree with the latter view but even that is not the same as wishing for "wholesale slaughter". Perhaps the Palestinians voted for Hamas due to it's hardline position on Israel, perhaps they voted for it because it puts a lot of money into social programs and is untainted by corruption, unlike the current PA. Perhaps it was a bit of both or perhaps it was some other reason. Whatever, I wouldn't be too suprised if there was a softening of Hamas' stance now that they are in power. It is easy to take a very hard line when you are in opposition, it is somewhat different when you have to deal with the realities of government. Ariel Sharon was thought of as a hardliner before he actually became prime minister and yet now many hardliners regard him as a traitor. 584336[/snapback] Number 1. Who possesses greater rights? A jew in any arab muslim nation, or an arab muslim in Israel? Of course, this is purely rhetorical, as the jews were driven from their homes throughout the non-Israeli Middle East subsequent to the establishment of Israel. Number 2. The National Socialist movement in Germany was also rightly famous for its charity and generosity towards their own people. What distinguishes Hamas from the pre-Reich Nazi party? Thanks in advance for your help.
Brian Cohen Posted January 28, 2006 Posted January 28, 2006 "blah blah blah I hate the Jew rhetoric" So you admit that you would like to see the Jews "driven" from Palestine, even if you wouldnt like to put them in the gas chambers yourself. That is certainly a breath of fresh air. As you said, some wish for extermination of the Jews, some merely wish that they be driven from the Holy Land. And that's about it, isnt it ? BTW, your assertion regarding driving the israelis out as the palestinians were----isnt that what happened to the jews in every arab state? at this point, turnabout would be the expulsion of every muslim from israeli land. not quite the case is it?
chicot Posted January 28, 2006 Posted January 28, 2006 Number 1. Who possesses greater rights? A jew in any arab muslim nation, or an arab muslim in Israel? Of course, this is purely rhetorical, as the jews were driven from their homes throughout the non-Israeli Middle East subsequent to the establishment of Israel.Number 2. The National Socialist movement in Germany was also rightly famous for its charity and generosity towards their own people. What distinguishes Hamas from the pre-Reich Nazi party? Thanks in advance for your help. 586470[/snapback] Thank you for actually attempting a sensible discussion rather than another of these "Palestinians want to extermininate all Jews" posts. I am not sure that there are no Jews whatsoever living in the non-Israeli Middle East - for instance, there was a small Jewish community in Iraq prior to the invasion. I'm also not convinced that the expulsion of the jews from other middle-eastern countries had nothing whatsoever to do with Zionism in pre-Israel Palestine. Nonetheless, the expulsion of jews from other countries is just as bad as the expulsion of the Palestinians from Israel and I believe the right of return should apply both ways. In any event, it would be fair to say that an Arab muslim in Israel proper (that is to say, one that actually has citizenship) does indeed have greater rights than a jew in an arab muslim nation, although there is certainly still some discrimination even then. My problem is with those Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza that do not and cannot be allowed to have Israeli citizenship as to do so would dilute the "Jewishness" of Israel. My knowledge of the pre-Reich Nazi party is somewhat sketchy and I don't have the time just now to do the necessary research. Anyway, my point is not that Hamas is a praiseworthy organisation, it is that there are other reasons that Palestinians could have had for voting for it, rather than just it's hardline stance on Israel and the corruption of Fatah contrasted with the social funding of Hamas is a prime example of this.
chicot Posted January 28, 2006 Posted January 28, 2006 "blah blah blah I hate the Jew rhetoric" So you admit that you would like to see the Jews "driven" from Palestine, even if you wouldnt like to put them in the gas chambers yourself. That is certainly a breath of fresh air. As you said, some wish for extermination of the Jews, some merely wish that they be driven from the Holy Land. And that's about it, isnt it ? BTW, your assertion regarding driving the israelis out as the palestinians were----isnt that what happened to the jews in every arab state? at this point, turnabout would be the expulsion of every muslim from israeli land. not quite the case is it? 586474[/snapback] Seems I was somewhat premature in thanking you for a sensible debate. Oh well... Did you miss this? "Many muslims would like to see Israel/Palestine as a multi-ethnic state with equal rights for Jews and muslims, some would probably like to see the Jews expelled in much the same way that the Palestinians were driven out. I certainly don't agree with the latter view but even that is not the same as wishing for "wholesale slaughter"." I have said on many occasions that I favour a multi-ethic secular state with equal rights for both Jews and Arabs in Israel/Palestine. Try reading the post properly next time before jumping to (wrong) conclusions.
Brian Cohen Posted January 28, 2006 Posted January 28, 2006 Thank you for actually attempting a sensible discussion rather than another of these "Palestinians want to extermininate all Jews" posts. I am not sure that there are no Jews whatsoever living in the non-Israeli Middle East - for instance, there was a small Jewish community in Iraq prior to the invasion. I'm also not convinced that the expulsion of the jews from other middle-eastern countries had nothing whatsoever to do with Zionism in pre-Israel Palestine. Nonetheless, the expulsion of jews from other countries is just as bad as the expulsion of the Palestinians from Israel and I believe the right of return should apply both ways. In any event, it would be fair to say that an Arab muslim in Israel proper (that is to say, one that actually has citizenship) does indeed have greater rights than a jew in an arab muslim nation, although there is certainly still some discrimination even then. My problem is with those Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza that do not and cannot be allowed to have Israeli citizenship as to do so would dilute the "Jewishness" of Israel. My knowledge of the pre-Reich Nazi party is somewhat sketchy and I don't have the time just now to do the necessary research. Anyway, my point is not that Hamas is a praiseworthy organisation, it is that there are other reasons that Palestinians could have had for voting for it, rather than just it's hardline stance on Israel and the corruption of Fatah contrasted with the social funding of Hamas is a prime example of this. 586477[/snapback] Fair enough. I will admit I was being a dick-props for the serious response. I will respond in kind. I agree that there may have been other reasons for people to vote for Hamas other than its pledge to exterminate Israel. My point is that these people should have learned from history. there were any number of reasons to vote for the Nazis other than their hard line positions towards the Jews. Those positions, however, should have excluded them from power. They did not, however, to the continuing detriment of the state of Germany. A point to remember, for those espousing the cause of the Palestinians.
Brian Cohen Posted January 28, 2006 Posted January 28, 2006 Seems I was somewhat premature in thanking you for a sensible debate. Oh well... Did you miss this? "Many muslims would like to see Israel/Palestine as a multi-ethnic state with equal rights for Jews and muslims, some would probably like to see the Jews expelled in much the same way that the Palestinians were driven out. I certainly don't agree with the latter view but even that is not the same as wishing for "wholesale slaughter"." I have said on many occasions that I favour a multi-ethic secular state with equal rights for both Jews and Arabs in Israel/Palestine. Try reading the post properly next time before jumping to (wrong) conclusions. 586479[/snapback] I really am looking for a sensible debate, on sensible terms. In a subsequent response, I did say i was trying to provoke a response, particularly from you. Sorry I didnt wait long enough for your response before posting again. I did read your response carefully before responding. Save your patronizing responses. The point is that you admit that your view is probably not the view of most Palestinians. Can you explain the position of Fatah regarding the composition of the Palestinian leadership other than this? Ok, i'm sending a PM, because I am serious about this discussion, and dont want it to degenerate.
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