jdbillsfan Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 Holcomb isn't going to take this team to the Super Bowl and that is all that matters. He has limited ability and reminds me of Bledose. He can look very good one game and look terrible the next. The Jets game was a joke. Some of those passes were tipped, but they were either thrown too low or too high and then tipped. 4 picks falls on the QB. I am open for a QB competition as long as JP wins.
Campy Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 I am open for a QB competition as long as JP wins. 582256[/snapback] How exactly is that "competition?"
BuffalOhio Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 I'm embarrassed at how many fans here have already given up on this kid. Post after post I read how it's Kelly Holcombs job or another journeymen veteran's yet to be acquired. Kelly Holcomb sucks, he's had 10 years in this league to put it all together and he finishes with 4 turnovers against the Jets to close out our miserable season. I have no doubts that Losman will surpass Holcomb in training camp. What I find amazing is the amount of weak-kneed hand wringers here who can't stomach the development of a young QB. Y'all must be from the Mike Malarkey School of QB Handling. Suck it up and deal with it, this team is not going to the Superbowl next season. I know it may come as a shock to some of you but it had to be put out there. None of us know if JP Losman is the next Brett Favre/Matt Hasselback or if he's a genuine first round flop. However with that said, the last thing this team should do right now is to not give him the chance next season. Fans and players need to put down their Superbowl pipe dreams for the coming season and get behind Losman. This kid has talent and skills, before we see him in the playoffs in another team's uniform for the next 10 seasons the Bills organization needs to give him the chance in 2006 to show he's the man. 581960[/snapback] I agree with you 100 percent. We wasted the last season trying to win, and he really didn't get any opportunity to learn. Put an O-Line in front of him and get the defense to actually stop someone, and perhaps we'll see what he can really do.
Guest BackInDaDay Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 JPL is better than Holcomb, and gives this team a better chance to win than Holcomb. That was true all year long this year (manipulate the stats to back another point of view if you want, but I think that is silly), and that is going to get truer every game that he plays. His ability to succeed this year and win was hurt by the flip flopping and lack of support from MM, but he still was the guy. Do people out there think that if he played 16 games we would have finished 4-12 or worse? If so I think you guys are crazy. I am very strongly of the opinion that if JPL had started 16 games we would have been as successful if not more successful in 2005, and more importantly more prepared for 2006. If he proves not to be what optimists think he can be, and we can upgrade our more by finding a new quarterback than by fixing other issues, then I am fine with that. But he should have started 16 games this year, and I would rather address the lines and the offensive game plan and let him start 16 times next year than see Kelly Holcomb play or than try to start again in the draft or use cap space for a free agent QB. Beating Cincy didn't make Holcomb a good quarterback, just like his big playoff game against Pittsburgh years ago didn't. Maybe there are people out there who hold out hope Holcomb will become something he is not at the moment (a playoff caliber quarterback), but I think it is a little more realistic to expect JPL to impove than KH, given age and experience. LET JP PLAY! 582236[/snapback] I've been up and down and all around how badly I believed Losman, our OC, and the fans were screwed by a short-sighted owner and GM and a puppet of a head coach. But that's history. The fact is it happened, and Losman's development as the Bills future QB sufferred for it. It is what it is. Now Levy and Jauron have to make an honest assesment of who gives the team the best chance to win each week. I see no commitment being made to JP, but they won't let him languish, either. Hopefully he gets enough work to improve his game.
Heels20X6 Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 I've been up and down and all around how badly I believed Losman, our OC, and the fans were screwed by a short-sighted owner and GM and a puppet of a head coach. But that's history. The fact is it happened, and Losman's development as the Bills future QB sufferred for it. It is what it is. Now Levy and Jauron have to make an honest assesment of who gives the team the best chance to win each week. I see no commitment being made to JP, but they won't let him languish, either. Hopefully he gets enough work to improve his game. 582275[/snapback] Absolutely, imagine your current job. You show up to work and the boss says, "I'm making you the new manager, I know you have no experience in this setting but don't worry, our front office will protect you and our warehouse is the best in the industry, they can bail you out. And you'll get the experience on the job, no one is expecting you to be manager of the year." Fast forward 4 weeks, the front office has all but quit and your warehouse isn't nearly what it was a year ago... Boss: "Yeah, you're not really cutting it like I thought you would. I know I said I wasn't expecting much but I've decided to hire a manager with experience. Sure he's never managed that well but you know I'm not going to take the wrap for this." Now would you like to be in this position?
Campy Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 Absolutely, imagine your current job. You show up to work and the boss says, "I'm making you the new manager, I know you have no experience in this setting but don't worry, our front office will protect you and our warehouse is the best in the industry, they can bail you out. And you'll get the experience on the job, no one is expecting you to be manager of the year." Fast forward 4 weeks, the front office has all but quit and your warehouse isn't nearly what it was a year ago... Boss: "Yeah, you're not really cutting it like I thought you would. I know I said I wasn't expecting much but I've decided to hire a manager with experience. Sure he's never managed that well but you know I'm not going to take the wrap for this." Now would you like to be in this position? 582289[/snapback] That'd be a pretty good analogy if it referenced the "new manager" coming in because the current one was hurt and unable to work. As it is, this analogy is something of a straw man.
Guest BackInDaDay Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 That'd be a pretty good analogy if it referenced the "new manager" coming in because the current one was hurt and unable to work. As it is, this analogy is something of a straw man. 582292[/snapback] How 'bout the current manager (DB's ears are itching) was being paid too much for what he was delivering?
hootie1 Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 I think that given all that happened last year, penciling in Holcomb as the starter going into mini-camps may be best, both for JP and the team. For JP, he's told us he plays better with a chip on his shoulder, and this is supported by his improved performance after his benching. It would also give him the opportunity to win the job, and thus win over his teammates. For the team, this would send the message that jobs are earned, and that the Bills want to win now.
stuckincincy Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 Holcomb isn't going to take this team to the Super Bowl and that is all that matters. He has limited ability and reminds me of Bledose. He can look very good one game and look terrible the next. The Jets game was a joke. Some of those passes were tipped, but they were either thrown too low or too high and then tipped. 4 picks falls on the QB. I am open for a QB competition as long as JP wins. 582256[/snapback] Right or wrong, he was their #1 pick via the draft day trade. They need to play him and find out what's what. If he's a bust, so be it. I'd hate to cut the guy and find out different. Nothing unusual about young folk in any vocation being wet behind the ears and eventually getting it together. You have to give chances to kids and have some patience...
Tasker Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 I think we could have gone 5-11 or better with 16 JPL starts, but that is correctly water under the bridge. Rather than compare Carson Palmer or Eli Manning, MM thought he was doing a Philip Rivers / Drew Brees thing, and the results on the field proved him very very wrong. But we also can't be tied to the past. I don't want to start JPL because we spent a high pick on him, or because he deserves the chance. I want to start JPL because I think that is the best option right now for us achieving our main goal: get back to the playoffs and try to win the Super Bowl. If a better QB option falls on our lap (including with the #8 pick or free agency), I am all for it, but I think with limited draft picks and limited cap space, our resources can be better spent to address other needs, and give JPL an honest shot in 2006. KH is a great backup, but is only a backup or stopgap. Which means you play him for one of two reasons: starter injured, or no other option. I think JPL is not to the no other option point, and needs to start. I think that everything is open, and an inferior player should not be given the job based on politics. But I think that JPL is better, and I think any plan to do better than JPL for 2006 will be too costly to be justified. So start JPL, backup KH, and build the best team and gameplan you can around that decision. If after 16 starts JPL clearly isn't the answer, cut bait after next season if a better option can be found.
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 I really like JP and want him to the real deal. That being said, he has to prove it. I hate the fact you give someone a job just because they were drafted high or have potential. I saw an interview with Marty S of the Chargers (don't wanna attempt to spell his last name) during training camp and he wouldn't say LT was their starting running back. He said there was a good chance but their policy was every job was open to competition. I don't think KH is great but I do think he has the right to compete for the job. Plus, it will give us a good read on JP. If he steps it up and wins the job, it would seem like he is more ready to play. If he doesn't win, then he probably wasn't gonna fare any better with NFL defenses game planning for him. I'm in no way giving up on JP and it would be stupid to do so. However, he needs to prove it to the coaches, his teammates, the fans, and most importantly, himself.
Campy Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 I don't think KH is great but I do think he has the right to compete for the job. Plus, it will give us a good read on JP. If he steps it up and wins the job, it would seem like he is more ready to play. If he doesn't win, then he probably wasn't gonna fare any better with NFL defenses game planning for him. 582403[/snapback] I'd imagine that beating out KH would do wonders for his teammates' faith and confidence in him.
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 Yeah, cause the pass was so far off the mark, all the receiver could do was get a hand on it. There are often int's that aren't the QB's fault. Those two DON'T fall in that catagory. And the 4 INT game you cited is a bit misleading, is it not? He had two balls bounce off receivers hands and get picked, another was a desperation toss at the end of the game. 581991[/snapback]
34-78-83 Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 Sounds great on paper but no line is perfect and the QB is going to have to make some plays on the fly. Have you seen all the 3rd down conversions Roethlisberger has made these last 3 games? I noticed that on several of them his line was penetrated and Ben just had the uncanny ability to make a play and get the 1st down. That's the stuff JP, Eli, whoever?!?? is going to have to learn to do. 582117[/snapback] It's already assumed (by me) that no line is perfect, and I'm aware of the third down efforts by Ben which are impressive, but NO QB will ever succeed here until the O-line is fixed. This has been an issue for atleast 10 years.
ezbills Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 The Bills are not winning the Super Bowl (or even getting to .500?) in 2006, so it would be foolish to not play Losman the whole season. How else can anyone tell if he can be a great/good/average NFL starting QB? I'm sure this argument's been made before plenty of times, but shouldn't the relevant comparison be between Losman in 2005 and Holcomb when he was at a similar point in his career? A "journeyman" QB (like Holcomb) is one who is good enough to play in the NFL a long time because he can outperform most inexperienced players at the same position. In any sport, a veteran player than cannot beat most rookies/ 2nd-year guys will soon find himself collecting a pension from the league and looking for other work. This is especially true at the QB position in football. The comparison, if any, should be between Losman and Holcomb during their 1st seasons of real NFL action. Losman 2005, Bills: 9 Games Played, 8 Starts, 113-228, 1340 yards, 49.6% Comp., 8 TD, 8 Int., 7 Fumbles, 64.9 Rating. 31 Carries for 154 Yards. Holcomb 1997, Colts: 5 Games Played, 1 Start, 45-73, 454 yards, 61.6% Comp., 1 TD, 8 Int., 4 Fumbles, 44.3 Rating. 5 Rushes for 5 Yards. Of course these are small samples to draw conclusions from, but it's a better argument than comparing Losman to Holcomb's 2005 numbers. Holcomb managed to throw the same # of picks in just a quarter of the attempts that Losman had, and Holcomb's fumble to pass attempt ratio was roughly twice Losman's. Losman clearly has a much higher upside than Holcomb does/did. Holcomb improved over time as he gained experience, and he certainly looks like a seasoned veteran. It's obvious that Holcomb played better for much of last season (except the KC game), but that is beside the point. Good teams make tough decisions to develop (play) young players with star potential despite the fact that older vets may still outperform during the 1st year or 2. In other words, for every Roethlisberger, there are a dozen Mannings and Palmers that struggled early and then improved greatly to become quality NFL QBs. Play Losman in 2006!
The Avenger Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 I think there should be a competition in camp, but you have to grade it on curve so to speak. Holcomb is a decent QB, but he's never going to be the answer. The thing he has going for him is experience - he's been there and done that. He's had some very good games, but also some real stinkers. Nobody really knows what we have in Losman at this point - he simply hasn't played enough. In that sense, I think a straight head to head competition favors the vet and his experience - Kelly may be better now because he has the experience and JP may be worse because he he doesn't. In that sense it's not really a fair head to head competition. I fear that the Bills are really in a vicious cycle - need a QB so we can win now leads to making short-sighted decisions at the position. Short-sighted decisions result in doing poorly on the field, which increases the pressure to win now. The only way to break this is to make the best long term decision or actually win now. That's what made the season so incredibly frustrating. I wanted to tear my hair out watching Kelly Holcomb play poorly against a hapless Jets team while JP sat on the bench. Did anyone realize that it was a completely meaningless game? Did nobody understand that this was just the opportunity the Bills needed to get JP on the field? Even if he played poorly it could be written off to gaining experience in an utterly meaningless game. Mularkey and Donahoe should have been fired immediately for even having Holcomb on the field under such circumstances, much less after he started to struggle in the first half. That sort of self-serving ineptitude convinced me that there was something very wrong with the Bills organization and that major changes were needed. If DJ sacrifices JP's development for ANOTHER year because he wants to finish the season with 6 wins this franchise has hit an all-time low. It's akin to blowing a first round pick on a bench warmer. That's when I'll really wonder why I put up with this team...
Tortured Soul Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 Here's a hypothetical: Say the Bills endure amiserable season, but JP develops. By 2007, he leads the Bills to their first of many playoff appearances. Now, do you want to spend $500 on a season ticket for 2006 or do you wait until 2007? It's not that simple a question. It costs me $100+ each game in transportation, too. So I don't know if I'd spend $1500 to see a team with little to no chance of winning. And that is why fans are reluctant to endure a seventh striaght season out of the playoffs, even if it could pay off down the road. Things would be different if this was 2002 and the Bills were still recently a playoff team.
VABills Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 If DJ sacrifices JP's development for ANOTHER year because he wants to finish the season with 6 wins this franchise has hit an all-time low. It's akin to blowing a first round pick on a bench warmer. That's when I'll really wonder why I put up with this team... 582464[/snapback] Or possibly he feels JP won't develop and therefor needs to ride the pine and be a backup. Life in the NFL is to short to allow anyone including a QB 3 years to develop into a below average QB, especially when the average time a player spend in the NFL is 4 years. Sorry but a QB has got to start showing something by year two and be the best QB on the team by year 3, or it's time to find another one.
Albany,n.y. Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 Absolutely, imagine your current job. You show up to work and the boss says, "I'm making you the new manager, I know you have no experience in this setting but don't worry, our front office will protect you and our warehouse is the best in the industry, they can bail you out. And you'll get the experience on the job, no one is expecting you to be manager of the year." Fast forward 4 weeks, the front office has all but quit and your warehouse isn't nearly what it was a year ago... Boss: "Yeah, you're not really cutting it like I thought you would. I know I said I wasn't expecting much but I've decided to hire a manager with experience. Sure he's never managed that well but you know I'm not going to take the wrap for this." Now would you like to be in this position? 582289[/snapback] Are you talking about JP the QB or Marv the GM?
Campy Posted January 24, 2006 Posted January 24, 2006 The comparison, if any, should be between Losman and Holcomb during their 1st seasons of real NFL action. Losman 2005, Bills: 9 Games Played, 8 Starts, 113-228, 1340 yards, 49.6% Comp., 8 TD, 8 Int., 7 Fumbles, 64.9 Rating. 31 Carries for 154 Yards. Holcomb 1997, Colts: 5 Games Played, 1 Start, 45-73, 454 yards, 61.6% Comp., 1 TD, 8 Int., 4 Fumbles, 44.3 Rating. 5 Rushes for 5 Yards. 582461[/snapback] I'm not too terribly concerned about what Holcomb did his rookie year. Nor is anyone arguing that JP doesn't have the potential to be twice the QB Holcomb is/was. I just hate see our players go through the motions. Last year he was beyond atrocious, save for one or two games. IMO, each game is too precious to while away so JP can "develop." I really do hope that he displays marked improvement. I'll be his biggest fan if that's the case. But if he doesn't, I'd want Holcomb to get the nod. Based upon last season's performance, Holcomb is the better QB right now, and frankly, that's all I care about. Like I've said many times here and offline, hopefully JP will come into camp and blow all of us all away - that'd be a best-case scenario, but I'm not holding my breath.
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