Cheeseburger_in_paradise Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 Just a thought. We know we need to get real serious in certain places like Falugia. But we're not doing it. Letting things be turned into a "stand off." Come on! I suspect that a bloody large scale decisive military action would cost American lives, and would politically play right into the hands of the Kerry people, when we are very close to what will likely be a close election. I hate the way politics may be affecting the way we are executing this situation. If on Nov. 3rd, we start to get some kahunas, I guess that's what it will have ment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 It's not lack of cojones it lack of planning and brains. You don't think if we could have had a decisive victory along the line, we would pass it up? Uh huh. Right. And pass up the chance to crow about Mission Accompllshed again? Come on, add it up. Stop loss. Sending administrative reserves overseas in the biggest reserve call up in decades. And we still can't "win". Those who don't learn from history are billsfanone to repeat it. At least Iraq is easier to spell than Vietnam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 It's not lack of cojones it lack of planning and brains. 42251[/snapback] That sentence tells a story all by itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeseburger_in_paradise Posted September 22, 2004 Author Share Posted September 22, 2004 That sentence tells a story all by itself. 42263[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeseburger_in_paradise Posted September 22, 2004 Author Share Posted September 22, 2004 It's not lack of cojones it lack of planning and brains. You don't think if we could have had a decisive victory along the line, we would pass it up? Uh huh. Right. And pass up the chance to crow about Mission Accompllshed again? Come on, add it up. Stop loss. Sending administrative reserves overseas in the biggest reserve call up in decades. And we still can't "win". Those who don't learn from history are billsfanone to repeat it. At least Iraq is easier to spell than Vietnam. 42251[/snapback] But we did have a decisive military victory. What we're up against now is different than the amazingly efficient and successful land war of last year. I suppose the reason Israel keeps getting popped is because of decades of lack of planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 Just a thought. We know we need to get real serious in certain places like Falugia. But we're not doing it. Letting things be turned into a "stand off." Come on! I suspect that a bloody large scale decisive military action would cost American lives, and would politically play right into the hands of the Kerry people, when we are very close to what will likely be a close election. I hate the way politics may be affecting the way we are executing this situation. If on Nov. 3rd, we start to get some kahunas, I guess that's what it will have ment. 42236[/snapback] I remember reading an article a week or two ago that suggested a major offensive against Fallujah is on the cards for the week after the US election so that the inevitable US casualties incurred will have no effect on the US election but Fallujah can be dealt with before the planned Iraqi election in January. Sounds plausible enough to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichFan Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 I remember reading an article a week or two ago that suggested a major offensive against Fallujah is on the cards for the week after the US election so that the inevitable US casualties incurred will have no effect on the US election but Fallujah can be dealt with before the planned Iraqi election in January. Sounds plausible enough to me. The frustrating thing for me is that Kerry's 16 positions on Iraq, combined with the one position that he suddenly may have settled in on, don't allow for the proper actions to take place on the ground in Iraq without being used to inflict political damage on Bush. It's a shame that differences in ideology can't be kept at the ideological level when the best interests of our troops are on the line. Kerry should allow the tactical commanders to do their jobs without second guessing every step they take. Tommy Franks can refute just about every tactical smear Kerry has made, but apparently only Fox News is iterested in his side of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 The frustrating thing for me is that Kerry's 16 positions on Iraq, combined with the one position that he suddenly may have settled in on, don't allow for the proper actions to take place on the ground in Iraq without being used to inflict political damage on Bush. It's a shame that differences in ideology can't be kept at the ideological level when the best interests of our troops are on the line. Kerry should allow the tactical commanders to do their jobs without second guessing every step they take. Tommy Franks can refute just about every tactical smear Kerry has made, but apparently only Fox News is iterested in his side of the story. 42335[/snapback] Everyone should read Franks' book. It crushes many of the DNC talking points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Everyone should read Franks' book. It crushes many of the DNC talking points. 42340[/snapback] Read? What's that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Everyone should read Franks' book. It crushes many of the DNC talking points. 42340[/snapback] I have started reading it, but got back into my fiction books for a while. I was read too many of these "fact/opinion" books lately and it was bringing out my dark side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tux of Borg Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Falugia is going to be very bloody, no doubt about that. I'd love to see them pound the city with artillery before we went in, but that's not going to happen. The SOP for tactically taking a city use to change every other month when I was on active duty. There's really no good way to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 At the risk of sounding like a "right wing whacko neanderthal", methinks that if the US went in and did it RIGHT, Falluja would become a parking lot in about five minutes with not even one soldier getting a scratch. We have the tools, the men and the talent to make it so. But given our propensity for caring more about "feelings" these days and our wonderful strategic planning of such offensives, I expect another quagmire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 At the risk of sounding like a "right wing whacko neanderthal", methinks that if the US went in and did it RIGHT, Falluja would become a parking lot in about five minutes with not even one soldier getting a scratch. We have the tools, the men and the talent to make it so. But given our propensity for caring more about "feelings" these days and our wonderful strategic planning of such offensives, I expect another quagmire. 42480[/snapback] I was thinking the same thing....go Roman on their sorry arses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 At the risk of sounding like a "right wing whacko neanderthal", methinks that if the US went in and did it RIGHT, Falluja would become a parking lot in about five minutes with not even one soldier getting a scratch. We have the tools, the men and the talent to make it so. But given our propensity for caring more about "feelings" these days and our wonderful strategic planning of such offensives, I expect another quagmire. 42480[/snapback] That may be so but what happens in the rest of Iraq if that happens? What happens when the rest of the Iraq sees images of the thousands of civilian casualties that will result from such a tactic? Last time there was an attack on Fallujah, attacks on US troops rose sharply and the road from Baghdad to Fallujah became virtually impassible as fighters attempted to cut off convoys resupplying the besieging US forces. Something else that people seem to be forgetting is that Iraq is supposed (use your imagination here) to have a sovereign government - actions like these are supposed to be taken only in consultation with them. What happens to their legitimacy if they allow an Iraqi city to be pounded into rubble by the US? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastaJoe Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 I was thinking the same thing....go Roman on their sorry arses. Whatever happened to those Romans, I haven't heard much about them lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Whatever happened to those Romans, I haven't heard much about them lately. 42767[/snapback] Well, if they are found I am certain that people will want to sue them for reparations due to enslavement of their ancestors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 That may be so but what happens in the rest of Iraq if that happens? What happens when the rest of the Iraq sees images of the thousands of civilian casualties that will result from such a tactic? Last time there was an attack on Fallujah, attacks on US troops rose sharply and the road from Baghdad to Fallujah became virtually impassible as fighters attempted to cut off convoys resupplying the besieging US forces. Something else that people seem to be forgetting is that Iraq is supposed (use your imagination here) to have a sovereign government - actions like these are supposed to be taken only in consultation with them. What happens to their legitimacy if they allow an Iraqi city to be pounded into rubble by the US? I dont buy your argument at all. Lets say the US did it "my way". Ill bet anything that for everyone Iraqi that would get pissed that the US went in gangbusters, there would be 10,000 who would be glad we did and finally put an end to this nonsense. Sorry....We TRIED the sensitive approach. Its getting us nowhere. Two years and 1,000 bodies later, its pretty clear the "cautions" approach isnt working. This is war and its time for the decisive battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 I dont buy your argument at all. Lets say the US did it "my way". Ill bet anything that for everyone Iraqi that would get pissed that the US went in gangbusters, there would be 10,000 who would be glad we did and finally put an end to this nonsense. Sorry....We TRIED the sensitive approach. Its getting us nowhere. Two years and 1,000 bodies later, its pretty clear the "cautions" approach isnt working. This is war and its time for the decisive battle. 42803[/snapback] You honestly believe that the Iraqi public would welcome the reduction of Fallujah to rubble and the thousands of civilian deaths that would result (and make no mistake, if you are talking about taking Fallujah without losing a single American life that is what it would entail)? And what of my point about the "sovereignty" of the so-called Iraqi government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 You honestly believe that the Iraqi public would welcome the reduction of Fallujah to rubble and the thousands of civilian deaths that would result (and make no mistake, if you are talking about taking Fallujah without losing a single American life that is what it would entail)? And what of my point about the "sovereignty" of the so-called Iraqi government? Yes....I do. Maybe Im naive....but I cannot FATHOM that the vast majority of Iraqis are embracing the work of the insurgents who look to undermine the growth of this country. Remember...it isnt just Americans being killed. Its Iraqis. Its the oil pipeline, police stations, all kinds of efforts to resore this country that are being undermined by the insurgency. You mean to tell me Mr. Iraqi-man-on-the-street doesnt have a problem with this? As far as the "Sovereignty" issue, youve got a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britbillsfan Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Yes....I do. Maybe Im naive....but I cannot FATHOM that the vast majority of Iraqis are embracing the work of the insurgents who look to undermine the growth of this country. Remember...it isnt just Americans being killed. Its Iraqis. Its the oil pipeline, police stations, all kinds of efforts to resore this country that are being undermined by the insurgency. You mean to tell me Mr. Iraqi-man-on-the-street doesnt have a problem with this? As far as the "Sovereignty" issue, youve got a point. 42916[/snapback] I don't think the vast majority of Iraqis would have a problem with the deaths of, say, Al-Qaeda fighters within their country (after all Al-Qaeda wants to wipe out the Shias as heretics and most Iraqis are Shias). On the other hand the deaths of tens of thousands of women and children, not to mention innocent men as well, by using the 'flatten the city' approach would piss them off no end. And not just the Iraqis either. Deliberately targetting civilian areas in the vague hope of killing the relatively few insurgents within that population would be widely viewed as nothing other than a war crime, and not in just the anti-American portion of the world. Pissing off Americas friends and allies and enraging its enemies would be plain stupid. Fortunately for everyone that is one policy I can not see any American administration taking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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