Fan in Chicago Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 the majority of this post is stating that Sherman would have been the better hire. so i stated that IF there is that big of a difference, it could be overcome with talent. I would like to have seen MS as well, but it's not going to happen. so, let's get some good talent in here and see what happens. 579647[/snapback] Can't disagree with this post of yours. But you can understand my frustration after having seen the local fans reaction for DJ during those losing years. I am just PO'ed that e hired a proven loser than a proven winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Dude, all I'm saying is that if there is that much of a difference between Sherman and DJ it can be overcome with talent. I think youyr getting too much wind over in Chi-town.... 579585[/snapback] Then wouldn't it stand to reason that if we acquired that same talent with Sherman we would be "that much of a difference" better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Then wouldn't it stand to reason that if we acquired that same talent with Sherman we would be "that much of a difference" better? 579692[/snapback] Thanx for stating it more clearly than I could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricojes Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Thanx for stating it more clearly than I could. 579738[/snapback] I agree, like i said i wanted Sherman. Especially because he most likely would have brought Bill Bates for Defense and we wouldn't have needed a strong OC because Sherman is offensive minded. Now we are going to have to hire an unknown or at least unproved OC, that scares me!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Sherman keeping an eye on the offense or a losing QB coach given his first chance to be an OC. Great choice there Marv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACor58 Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I agree, like i said i wanted Sherman. Especially because he most likely would have brought Bill Bates for Defense and we wouldn't have needed a strong OC because Sherman is offensive minded. Now we are going to have to hire an unknown or at least unproved OC, that scares me!! 579752[/snapback] Not sure who Bill Bates is, but I'll take Jim Bates as a Def Coordinator. In fact, I'd take him as a head coach. Remember how hard the Dolphins played for him after Wandstadt was fired. A lot of the Dpolphins vets were calling for him to stay on as Head Coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 The Bears actually had coffers of talent on the defensive side of the ball. On the offensive side of the ball, this Bills team looks a lot like the Bears teams that Jauron coached. A veteran QB who the vets like but who has little talent (Miller/Holcomb), a young, mobile, strong armed kid QB who everyone hates (McNown/Losman), an overrated RB who has little burst (A-Train/McGahee), one solid veteran at WR (Booker/Moulds), a speedster who runs poor routes and has questionable hands (White/Evans), no talent at TE, and a weak OL. Hell, the Bills even have two of the castoffs from the miserable Bears OL (Gandy/Villarial)! Jauron will probably be "comfortable" with those guys. 579271[/snapback] Your comparison of the team's individuals pretty much falls apart when one looks at a realistic assessment ofthe Bills. The worst of these is your description of Evans. There are few to know signs of him having questionable hands. Josh Reed had bad hands his second year and Evans is nothing like that. Moulds drops noticably drops a few passes as he often comes close on the circus catch a lesser athlete would not have even touched and some (foolishly IMHO) harp on that. Evans however has shown himself to have reliable hands and no problems running bad routees beyond the usual rookie or young WR errors. Also, Booker is not Moulds from what I have seen. Your TE indictment of the Bills crew is somewhat legit if by it you mean thay have no stars at TE, but Campbell has a pedestrian level of talent rather than no talent. We certainly need to upgrade at TE, but Jauron will have the speedy Everett so even with drafting one from the deep TE pool of adequate players in the draft I think the situation is better than no talent. WM is the fastest Bill ever to rush for 2000 yards and it seems rediculous to convert fans expectations that he has failed to become Jim Brown (yet?) after 2 years in dismissing him. I agree with you that the OL is pathetic in its performance. I don't know the Bears true QB situation at the time though the names appear dismal. Holcomb/JP can easily also prove to need to be replaced, however, they too should not be simply dismissed as a good QB coach has some potential to work with here. Holcomb is no starter talent IMHO but he is a legit level #2 which I do not think Miller/McNown ever were and I think JP is certainly failed so far but does have some upside potential which must be developed before dismissing it if he continues to fail to produce. Your read just does not seem to fit the facts on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Your comparison of the team's individuals pretty much falls apart when one looks at a realistic assessment ofthe Bills. The worst of these is your description of Evans. There are few to know signs of him having questionable hands. Also, Booker is not Moulds from what I have seen. Your TE indictment of the Bills crew is somewhat legit if by it you mean thay have no stars at TE, but Campbell has a pedestrian level of talent rather than no talent. We certainly need to upgrade at TE, but Jauron will have the speedy Everett so even with drafting one from the deep TE pool of adequate players in the draft I think the situation is better than no talent. WM is the fastest Bill ever to rush for 2000 yards and it seems rediculous to convert fans expectations that he has failed to become Jim Brown (yet?) after 2 years in dismissing him. I agree with you that the OL is pathetic in its performance. I don't know the Bears true QB situation at the time though the names appear dismal. Holcomb/JP can easily also prove to need to be replaced, however, they too should not be simply dismissed as a good QB coach has some potential to work with here. Holcomb is no starter talent IMHO but he is a legit level #2 which I do not think Miller/McNown ever were and I think JP is certainly failed so far but does have some upside potential which must be developed before dismissing it if he continues to fail to produce. Your read just does not seem to fit the facts on the ground. 579845[/snapback] Let's start with Evans. The scouting reports (Scouts, Inc.) that I have seen point to Evans being an erratic route runner with average hands. He certainly has a world of potential and route running skills are part instinct and partly a product of chemistry with a QB. Knowing how to break off a route, when and how to make double moves, and putting your body in position to make a catch are skills learned over time. Evans is still young and has a tremendous amount of upside, that is not in doubt. The exact same things were said of Dez White and David Terrell in Chicago. Evans is much more mature than Terrell and has a similar pedigree to Dez White. To this point, the Bills have done a better job of utilizing the deep speed of Evans whereas the Bears misused White as the primary target on their 3 yard WR screen offense. Evans looks good but, lets wait another year or two before anointing him to be anything better than an above average WR. As for Booker v. Moulds...both WR's have great hands, run solid routes and have the type of speed that makes them quality middle of the field WR's. Eric Moulds is seen in Buffalo as a WR1 whereas outside of Buffalo, that's not really the case anymore. He is at his best when he has a talented WR opposite of him that can force the safeties to cheat away from him. If he is forced into double coverage or is found in the middle of the field with a safety creeping, he is pretty much a useless WR. Moulds has a lot of trouble getting seperation off the line and lacks the deep speed he had his first few years in the league. At this point in Moulds' career, there isn't a whole lot of difference between he and Marty Booker. Since there's a 90% chance that Moulds will be playing elsewhere next season, it's really academic anyhow... Jauron's offense requires a blocking TE, so Campbell fits the bill pretty well. The Bears never had anything above pedestrian talent at TE either. I guess I consider starting TE's with no discernible skill at any facet of the game to be pretty useless. Campbell is average at everything and excels at nothing. Kevin Everett is a pass catching TE with below average blocking skills, he's not a real solid fit in this offense unless Jauron hired someone outside his Chicago crew as the OC. McGahee is nothing more than an average RB. Perhaps saying this is verboten in Buffalo but he has no burst through the hole and is too tentative and indecisive behind the line. Watching objectively, I fail to see the difference between Willis McGahee and Anthony Thomas. They are both North/South runners with little ability to get to the edge or get through the second level of the defense when they have the opportunity. Does he have room to get better? I don't know, it depends on his level of desire and whether or not he will finally regain the burst he had pre-injury. Holcomb is indeed a legit level #2 QB in the NFl, absolutely. He has the type of talent that gets you through a few games when your starter goes down and makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy that he's on the bench. He's a well liked presence in the locker room by all accounts and is a real team player. Exactly like Frank Reich, Alex Van Pelt, and yes, Jim Miller. Jim was a guy with just enough talent to make you think he could lead a winning team. He was also the victim of two traumatic injuries that robbed him of his skills. The torn achilles in 2000 and the torn rotator cuff in 2002 cut shirt a career that was remarkably similar to Kelly Holcomb's. As for JP vs. McNown...both were acquired in odd draft day trades, they were both extremely cocky young QB's who were handed their jobs without real competition, were disliked by the veterans, had popular vets behind them on the depth chart (Miller/Holcomb), were mobile with strong arms, and were too agressive for their own good during games. The similarities between Losman and McNown are absolutely striking. Does Losman have time to resurrect his career? Perhaps. He is gonna have to win the job in competition, learn to be a leader, and learn humility. Does Jauron have a good track record with young QB's? Absolutely not. The OL in Buffalo needs to be blown up. Start with dumping Bennie Anderson, Chris Villarial, and Mike Gandy. Move Trey Teague to OG, keep Jason Peters at LT, renegotiate the contract of Mike Williams and move him inside to OG, start Duke Preston at C, and sign a RT in FA. With the proper coaching, you have a relatively young OL that could be halfway decent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 As for JP vs. McNown...both were acquired in odd draft day trades, they were both extremely cocky young QB's who were handed their jobs without real competition, were disliked by the veterans, had popular vets behind them on the depth chart (Miller/Holcomb), were mobile with strong arms, and were too agressive for their own good during games. The similarities between Losman and McNown are absolutely striking. Does Losman have time to resurrect his career? Perhaps. He is gonna have to win the job in competition, learn to be a leader, and learn humility. Does Jauron have a good track record with young QB's? Absolutely not. 579910[/snapback] Does JPL have a rep for partying all night with porn stars like McNown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmr60 Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Jauron's hiring comes down to these factors: ...Wilson hired somebody to be GM whom he felt he could trust. ...Marv hired somebody he could trust which does not necessarily mean he hired the best man....If Jauron falls down with years remaining on his contract Marv could step in. Easy to convince Ralph that would be the way to say $. ...Sherman was a danger to Marv because of his GM ability. This was a no-brainer for Marv whose primary focus is MARV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Does JPL have a rep for partying all night with porn stars like McNown? 579916[/snapback] I didn't know McNown was a porn star Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerstm Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 The Buffalo Bills have been run like a fantasy team for the fans over the last five years. Lots of flash and good PR, but no character. Need to get the fans excited, trade for an over-the-hill Bledsoe and watch the fans come out like he's Jim Kelly. Need another shot of adreneline, sign an aging Lawyer Milloy in 2003. Fans hate Gregg Williams, fire him. Fans want a hot new QB, draft Losman. Fans sick of Bledsoe and want hot young QB, dump Bledsoe. And the fans lapped it up, selling out every game in 2005, while the team sunk to new depths. Now we have a new sheriff in town named Marv Levy, who has a very different approach. We are going to build this team right, from the bottom up with quality, character players. Not everyone will be from that lack of character institution--the University of Miami--we'll get some quality guys. We will build the lines-- so we can block and tackle. We will get the fundamentals right. Enter Dick Jauron. Certainly no flash there. But by every account a quality man who players will play for. Oh, and he went to Yale, so he's likely smart, and can learn from his mistakes. And he's high character, and a teacher. And he knows the value of a stout D-line. So what do many on this board want--run him out of town. Why, because we did not hire the flashier, instant gratification candidate in Mike Sherman. And truth be told as much as the fans say they hated TD at the end, they in fact miss his "give the fans what they want" approach, even if they don't know anything about building a winning business, much less a football team. All they know is that they want to make a big splash today, so the media will say nice things about us. I am tired of the TD approach. I am tired of the push for instant gratification. I want to see teams, like those when Levy coached, who know how to take a punch and get back up and fight some more. I want a team that beats Miami when the QB finds a way into the end zone on the last play, not one that loses on the last play. Levy knew character and quality before. I think he still does. And while Jauron may not be flashy, he has the brains and character that this team so desperately needs right now. 579193[/snapback] I'm sure glad it is about character and not win and losses... hope your happy with a high character guy who the players will play for when this team puts up double diget loses the next three years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerstm Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Jauron's hiring comes down to these factors:...Wilson hired somebody to be GM whom he felt he could trust. ...Marv hired somebody he could trust which does not necessarily mean he hired the best man....If Jauron falls down with years remaining on his contract Marv could step in. Easy to convince Ralph that would be the way to say $. ...Sherman was a danger to Marv because of his GM ability. This was a no-brainer for Marv whose primary focus is MARV. 579925[/snapback] Marv = TD and it will be a good day when he leaves town also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Does JPL have a rep for partying all night with porn stars like McNown? 579916[/snapback] If a porn star would ever show up in Buffalo, he probably would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerstm Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Can't disagree with this post of yours. But you can understand my frustration after having seen the local fans reaction for DJ during those losing years. I am just PO'ed that e hired a proven loser than a proven winner. 579657[/snapback] Bills hired a proven loser as coach, becasue they have a proven loser as owner... Here is hoping the HOF never grants good ole Ralphie a bust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipers Hair Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 The Buffalo Bills have been run like a fantasy team for the fans over the last five years. Lots of flash and good PR, but no character. Need to get the fans excited, trade for an over-the-hill Bledsoe and watch the fans come out like he's Jim Kelly. Need another shot of adreneline, sign an aging Lawyer Milloy in 2003. Fans hate Gregg Williams, fire him. Fans want a hot new QB, draft Losman. Fans sick of Bledsoe and want hot young QB, dump Bledsoe. And the fans lapped it up, selling out every game in 2005, while the team sunk to new depths. Now we have a new sheriff in town named Marv Levy, who has a very different approach. We are going to build this team right, from the bottom up with quality, character players. Not everyone will be from that lack of character institution--the University of Miami--we'll get some quality guys. We will build the lines-- so we can block and tackle. We will get the fundamentals right. Enter Dick Jauron. Certainly no flash there. But by every account a quality man who players will play for. Oh, and he went to Yale, so he's likely smart, and can learn from his mistakes. And he's high character, and a teacher. And he knows the value of a stout D-line. I agree - the Bills have been run to sell season tickets in the past 5 years. That said, I don't like to Jouron move for football reasons. The guy is a proven loser. The signing wreaks of nepatism at it's worst. I have hired a boatload of people in my day and could not understand why you would elect to hire the person with the lesser crudentials. Unless of course we don't know what those crudentials are. I mean - as a coach, I understand the #1 thing to do is build a winner and win games. Sherman proved he could, Jouron proved otherwise. Look - I can't speak the the ins and outs of coaching in the NFL, but from a leadership perspective - we hired a guy who admittedly is not the firey leader type. Granted - a clone of levy, but Levy had special players to work with. I really think the Bills are no better than a top 5 draft pick team next year. I hope DJ shocks the Hell out of me, but I just don't see it with the current ownership/administration in place.... So what do many on this board want--run him out of town. Why, because we did not hire the flashier, instant gratification candidate in Mike Sherman. And truth be told as much as the fans say they hated TD at the end, they in fact miss his "give the fans what they want" approach, even if they don't know anything about building a winning business, much less a football team. All they know is that they want to make a big splash today, so the media will say nice things about us. I am tired of the TD approach. I am tired of the push for instant gratification. I want to see teams, like those when Levy coached, who know how to take a punch and get back up and fight some more. I want a team that beats Miami when the QB finds a way into the end zone on the last play, not one that loses on the last play. Levy knew character and quality before. I think he still does. And while Jauron may not be flashy, he has the brains and character that this team so desperately needs right now. 579193[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Quebecer Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Jauron's hiring comes down to these factors:...Wilson hired somebody to be GM whom he felt he could trust. ...Marv hired somebody he could trust which does not necessarily mean he hired the best man....If Jauron falls down with years remaining on his contract Marv could step in. Easy to convince Ralph that would be the way to say $. ...Sherman was a danger to Marv because of his GM ability. This was a no-brainer for Marv whose primary focus is MARV. 579925[/snapback] You maybe right, but imho, it's a little bit more like that : Post #599 by JDG "I think that you are on the right track, but looking at it from the wrong angle. I don't think that #1 problem with Sherman is that his prior GM experience would make him a competitor with Marv Levy for control and leadership in the organization. Rather, I think it is important to note that successful NFL organizations have a GM and a Coach who are "on the same page." Marv Levy clearly built up a comfort-level with Jauron in Chicago, and as two former Ivy-Leaguers in the NFL, their affinity for each other is probably natural. Thus, I think that Jauron and Levy are just simply more likely to share a common outlook on football decisions, and to see things in similar ways. Levy and Wilson have talked from the very beginning about wanting to operate on a "consensus" basis - and while I think that is partly platitiude, there is a little bit of truth to it, and it is simply going to be the case that consensus will be far more likely among two people who will be sharing a same basic outlook. I think that is the sort of thing that many message board posters miss when they put together "all star coaching teams" - like so many we saw on TBD this week. NFL Coaching Staffs are a *team*, and that concept can be extended to an entire NFL Organization, particularly when it comes to a GM and a Head Coach. Thus, (and I'm not speaking directly to you here, Nick - I don't recall what you thought of this decision) you can't have been ecstatic about having Marv come back as a GM, but then be despondent about Jauron. Getting Marv as a GM means getting a "Marv guy" as a Coach - and Jauron is no doubt the most prominent "Marv guy" available. If it was up to me, I probably would have hired Caldwell (not having sat in the interviews, and knowing only a few details about the candidates.) With that being said, I'm willing to give Jauron the benefit of the doubt. In general, I'm much more impressed by someone who made success out of nothing (Jauron going 13-3 with a talent-starved roster), then someone who had decent perennial success with talent in abundance. JDG" But, who knows? Only time will tell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
respk Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 No matter how much I try to I fail to find any bright side to the hiring of Jauron. I see nothing in his background that leads me to believe that he will be a good head coach. 13-3 and coach of the year? That was followed by 2 poor seasons. Jacksonville DC. Yes they made the playoffs but I would exactly call that successful. Detroit? His record their only supports the downside. He's never worked in what is called a successful organization or for a successful head coach. Where is the opportunity to learn to be a good head coach? It is missing. As a Bills fan I hope this works out. I would be ecstatic if he leads us to a Super Bowl win. Being a realist, I think we will have a top 5 pick the next 2-3 years and will be rebuilding again. Worst case: Low attendance the next two years, Ralph rides off in to the sunset and the new owners point to the poor attendance and prepare to move the team to a new locale. This hire is critical, very critical to the future of the Bills and I'm afraid Ralph and Marv blew it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Swerski Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 He's never worked in what is called a successful organization or for a successful head coach.579975[/snapback] I don't like the Jauron hire either but, he did learn under Mike Holmgren and Tom Coughlin. Two pretty decent head coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 a speedster who runs poor routes and has questionable hands (White/Evans) 579271[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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