still no minorities hired this year...

[Chilly]

Please, explain to me why it's happening then, if it isn't that the majority of these owners aren't comfortable with presenting a minority as the public face of the franchise?  How long did it take Marvin Lewis to get a job?  How about Tony Dungy?  Seriously you seem to have a great grasp on the situation, so enlighten me.

575302[/snapback]

 

You seriously seem to have a great grasp of the situation as well, since you know 100% for sure that its race. I guess you must have sat in on their interviews and on the team's deliberations about head coaches.

 

Read nodnarb's post, it expalins pretty much everything.

 

 

Yeah...I think the neat interview thing might have something to do with being white (and apparently OLD these days in Buffalo).  Gregg W might have taught them a little something about falling in love in an interview.

 

Yes they had head coaching experienced.  They sucked at it.

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So did Bill Belichek and a bunch of other coaches.

[tennesseeboy]

Actually, I think the NFL IS in fact making progress, but a lot of that progress is because of the pressure against the old boy network. The Rooney rule is one big part of that. Take James Lofton for instance. He is much more likely to get serious consideration for an OC position based on his success as a receivers coach and his visibility as an interviewee. I see it in business and education all the time. This guy takes care of a friend, recommends a friend's kid. The friend is in his club, and there aren't a lot of black guys in the club. This is life, but enough of it occurs to effectively shut out many deserving folks who aren't in the club. Affirmative action begins to address the inequity (institutional racism is a term that comes to mind, but I don't hink I'll use it as it gets a certain type of folk enraged.).

 

I can't believe someone could seriously say that the idea of Art Shell with a winning record, playoff success and a hall of fame credential makes them laugh while we are interviewing Dom Capers.

[plenzmd1]

Wow, because things are SOOO different in 2006 compared to 2003.  Please you seem to be a really smart guy, so explain to me what a guy like Maurice Carthon has to do to get a job?  Donnie Henderson didn't just become available you know.  He could have been interviewing for many jobs even before Mangina fired him.  But he wasn't.

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What about Montee Kiffin, how bout Tom Moore, how bout Johnson from Philly. Their not sniffing jobs either(although I think Kiffen could if he wanted) because of their AGE, no?

 

Listen, my thought is almost 20% of head coaches are now black, and that is more than the % of African Americans in the general populace, so I am at a loss to see the problem here. I mean Denny Green , Herm Edwards,Tony Dungy are now getting their second chances, and that to me is the real measure of progress.

[Kelly the Dog]

So far, youve pulled up issues from three years gao (Lewis/Dungy) and TEN years ago (Shell) to make a point about the state of hiring in 2006.

 

How about bringing up something from TODAY to make your point?

 

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He did. It was his original point. No new hires in 2006 out of 6-7 new coaches. Edwards just swapped teams and the Jets hired a white guy with no experience. I am not necessarily agreeing with Iowa on this one, and think it was basically more coincidence than anything, and the minority candidates, with the exception of Rivera, weren't all that exciting, but you were the one who is bringing up the past, saying we already had almost 20%, not him.

[smokinandjokin]

Art Shell makes you laugh?  Let's see, 56% career winning percentage, made the playoffs 3 out of 5 years, all while working for that maniac known as Al Davis.  Yeah he's a real stiff.  And he hasn't even gotten an interview since he left the Raiders. 

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I heard he slept with Hasek's wife.

[Chilly]

Jim Caldwell is a minority, and the Bills are going to interview him according to the AP, even after interviewing Lofton.

 

These minority candidates sure are getting the shaft.

[LaDairis]

What the political left is attempting to use is the "Sliding Quota" standard, arguing that since almost 90% of NFL players are black, then 90% of all coaches, owners, and ball boys must be black or it is racism. That Sliding Quota standard is, by itself, viciously racist to the core.

 

 

The "problem" area, if you can call it that, is the NCAA, where black Div 1a coaches are way underrepresented. That's the "farm team" for being an NFL head coach. Ironically enough, a lot of the noise about racism comes from precisely that source, the NCAA, home of leftist through Stalinst brands of ideology.

 

One mentions the idea that this type of whining helps to "keep racism alive." That is exactly what the desired outcome is. If racism is not "kept alive," then tens of thousands of professional race baiters would lose their "jobs"... and hence the NCAA remains totally left wing, absolutely hypocritical to the core on the issue of black head coaches, and the professional race baiters, on cue, blame the "rich white" NFL owners... and thank their leftist pals in the NCAA for "keeping racism alive" and hence the honey keeps flowing...

[tennesseeboy]

You seriously seem to have a great grasp of the situation as well, since you know 100% for sure that its race.  I guess you must have sat in on their interviews and on the team's deliberations about head coaches. 

 

Read nodnarb's post, it expalins pretty much everything.

So did Bill Belichek and a bunch of other coaches. 

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I think if you check Bellichek's record the year before he was hired by the Jets and Patriots in pretty much the same week, he had a rather successful coaching tenure under Bill Parcells which made him attractive as a head coach. Jauron doesn't have that experience to wipe out his record. Bellichek was 20-28 his three years at Cleveland, which isn't quite suck (although I don't think NE would have hired or interviewed him for HC immediately after he left Cleveland.)

[RkFast]

He did. It was his original point. No new hires in 2006 out of 6-7 new coaches. Edwards just swapped teams and the Jets hired a white guy with no experience. I am not necessarily agreeing with Iowa on this one, and think it was basically more coincidence than anything, and the minority candidates, with the exception of Rivera, weren't all that exciting, but you were the one who is bringing up the past, saying we already had almost 20%, not him.

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How am I bringing up the PAST by listing the coaches RIGHT NOW?

 

And how is Edwards move a "swap"? Thats a HIRE. NEWSFLASH: He had to be HIRED by a team in order for that "swap" to take place.

 

Come on....the bottom line is tha there wont be hires THIS YEAR for minorities. One year does not make a trend. The last few years there have been good hires in this area. Were up to 20% of the coaching roster being AA. Thats good progress. If this trend goes on another year or two where ZERO minorities who are good candidates get passed over, then youll have a point. Until then, there is nothing to discuss.

[Kelly the Dog]

How am I bringing up the PAST by listing the coaches RIGHT NOW?

 

And how is Edwards move a "swap"? Thats a HIRE. NEWSFLASH: He had to be HIRED by a team in order for that "swap" to take place.

 

Come on....the bottom line is tha there wont be hires THIS YEAR for minorities. One year does not make a trend. The last few years there have been good hires in this area. Were up to 20% of the coaching roster being AA. Thats good progress. If this trend goes on another year or two where ZERO minorities who are good candidates get passed over, then youll have a point. Until then, there is nothing to discuss.

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Ummmmm... it's a swap because he was traded? They had to give compensation in order for the Jets to let him go? That is what I would call a swap of jobs. I was only complaining about you complaining that Iowa was bringing up the past. He wasn't. He was talking about this year. You brought up the past, meaning past hires, and then complained he isn't talking about "today". Which he was, and you weren't. His whole thesis was no hires this year.

[SlamnSam]

Tim Lewis, Donnie Henderson, Maurice Carthon, Ray Rhodes, Art Shell, Ron Rivera, Norm Chow.

Every single new hire has been your prototypical, status quo type coach.  Sad.  And I thought the NFL was making progress?  How the hell does Eric Mangini get the NY Jets head job over a guy like Donnie Henderson?  Mangini was a coordinator for what, 1 year?  Most of the other hires are ok, but Mangini was only a coordinator for 1 year and I don't care if he was with Belichick, Belichick was running that defense, not him; McCarthy was the offensive coordinator of the second worst team in football and did nothing with Alex Smith, who looked like he got worse as the year went on, and Rod Marinelli, has never even been a coordinator!  You would think that with the three top coaches in the regular season this year all being black, maybe, just maybe, these owners would think outside the box.  But nope, they decided to keep their feet fully entrenched inside the box.  I can only hope next years super bowl is Cincinatti vs. Chicago.

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Where are the spanish american coaches? Last time it was counted spanish americans are now the largest minoroity group in America. Is it then racisit to keep calling for coaches to be black? Stop with the poor black coaches bit it just whinning. If the popualtion of blacks in America is 14% then please, please tell me why there should be 50% black coaches?

[JAMIEBUF12]

Tim Lewis, Donnie Henderson, Maurice Carthon, Ray Rhodes, Art Shell, Ron Rivera, Norm Chow.

Every single new hire has been your prototypical, status quo type coach.  Sad.  And I thought the NFL was making progress?  How the hell does Eric Mangini get the NY Jets head job over a guy like Donnie Henderson?  Mangini was a coordinator for what, 1 year?  Most of the other hires are ok, but Mangini was only a coordinator for 1 year and I don't care if he was with Belichick, Belichick was running that defense, not him; McCarthy was the offensive coordinator of the second worst team in football and did nothing with Alex Smith, who looked like he got worse as the year went on, and Rod Marinelli, has never even been a coordinator!  You would think that with the three top coaches in the regular season this year all being black, maybe, just maybe, these owners would think outside the box.  But nope, they decided to keep their feet fully entrenched inside the box.  I can only hope next years super bowl is Cincinatti vs. Chicago.

575270[/snapback]

well the chiefs did trade a draft pack away to get a miniorty coach,but yes i agree not so much with donnie henderson not getting a job,but more with tim lewis of the giants not getting one...i think he did a helluva job with the giants defense

[KD in CA]

Reading is fundamental.  I said new hires my friend, new hires.  So right now, 6 of the 32 head coaches in the NFL are black, and half of them made the playoffs.    That leaves 24 current head coaches as white.  Hmmm....not all that equal as far as I'm concerned, and I'm not even the type of person who says that the majority of the head coaches should be black. 

 

 

What exactly do you consider "equal"? A group that makes up 12% of the population should be making up 50% of the head coaches? How much makes it "equal"?

 

Math is fundamental too.

[Nanker]

I sure hope Marv hires someone soon.

That way the onus will be on Oakland to hire Maurice Carthon or James Lofton (if Marv doesn't snatch one of those gems from under the snott-filled nose of Al Davis first).

[Talonz]

What exactly do you consider "equal"?  A group that makes up 12% of the population should be making up 50% of the head coaches?  How much makes it "equal"?

 

Math is fundamental too.

575481[/snapback]

 

 

Seriously...Where does it stop? Will the people complaining be happy with 30% of the coaches black? 50% 60% 100% ????

 

I could CARE LESS what color the Bills coach or ANY OTHER coach is. My "standard of measure" is WINS AND LOSSES.

 

I've heard the last few days that Ralph won't hire a black coach or that WNY won't accept a black coach...I say MULARKY!

 

Do people seriously think that if the Bills hired a black coach that people would complain based on color??? HUH??????? People here in WNY want a winner, plain and simple. If they are pink, purple, black, brown, white, green..IT DOESN'T MATTER. This isn't 1972 ok? GET OVER IT.

 

BTW: Do people realize there is a black player on the Sabres? OMFG!!!! STOP THE PRESSES!!! I hear all the time with my white friends how much they want that black guy off the team, you know because he is black....

 

Oh, and as a white guy I would like to see a quota on RUNNING BACKS

[TheMadCap]

and I'm not even the type of person who says that the majority of the head coaches should be black. 

575290[/snapback]

 

 

if you DID, then you would be making a racist statement...

 

 

Glad to see the Tim avatar make a comeback Nanker.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Where are the spanish american coaches? Last time it was counted spanish americans are now the largest minoroity group in America. Is it then racisit to keep calling for coaches to be black? Stop with the poor black coaches bit it just whinning. If the popualtion of blacks in  America is 14% then please, please tell me why there should be 50% black coaches?

575438[/snapback]

 

Among the reasons for the particular focus on NFL coaching candidates of A-A descent are:

 

1. A signficant majority of the players are of A-A descent. In order to keep producing a good product the NFL is interested in creating a career path for players which will allow them to move from being a player to obtain the highest on field position on a team (HC). Having a focus on meeting some statistical standard for the population would not meet this goal.

 

Those who are "slaves" to the statistics which underlie quotas would endorse your interest in the NFL meeting some statistical measure related to the population. However, our society explicitly rejects quota systems and are more interested in a system like the NFL's which guarantee's opportunity by demanding interviews. The focus in not on some bizarre and arbitraty principle like societal quotas, the focus is on the reality of employee management and producing a good product.

 

2. There is a pretty clear history of racist practices by the NFL targeted on qualified people of A-A descent. Until the late 80s, the NFL refused to have qualified people of A-A descent as QBs (except the occaisional Marlin Briscoe) due in great part to the groundbreaking work of folks like James Harris and accomplishments of Doug Williams and the press beatings received by idiots such as Jimmy the greek and Al Campanis, this travesty against the qualified did not stand.

 

With 10 years time A-As are reoutinely QBs.

 

The next frontier is HC positions. The NFL minority interview policy is designed to address a past history which most folks clearly agree is one of past discriminatory practices where qualified people of A-A descent were denied even a shot at an HC position.

 

Thus, though a fellow like Norm Chow is clearly a racial minority in our society, his hiring does not meet the NFL Rooney Rule because there is not the same history of discrimination against Chow's racial background by the NFL as there was against the numerous qualified people of A-A descent.

[KD in CA]

Do people seriously think that if the Bills hired a black coach that people would complain based on color??? HUH???????  People here in WNY want a winner, plain and simple.  If they are pink, purple, black, brown, white, green..IT DOESN'T MATTER.  This isn't 1972 ok? GET OVER IT.

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

It is amazing to me that people actually think that fans, players, or owners would rather have an inferior coach and thus a worse team than hire a coach who happens to be black. (I assume that these are the same people that insist 9-11 was a big government conspiracy).

 

I'm sure that somewhere in the south today, a black guy is not getting a job at some factory because the manager is a racist POS. But to assume that mentality extends to everyone involved in pro football coaching (and everywhere else) is just crazy IMO.

 

If people are so convinced that racism is SO prevalent that a black person can rarely be considered for a job he/she is qualified for, doesn't that stand to reason that the vast majority of people are in fact racist? (Surely it can't be a handful of racists who just happen to be doing all the hiring, can it?) So does that mean that people who believe this consider the majority of their friends, family and acquaintances to be racists? If that's really the state of our country, it can't all be on the other guy, right? Sorry, but I'm not buying it.

[Kelly the Dog]

I couldn't agree more.

 

It is amazing to me that people actually think that fans, players, or owners would rather have an inferior coach and thus a worse team than hire a coach who happens to be black. (I assume that these are the same people that insist 9-11 was a big government conspiracy).

 

That ain't the point, and never has been. You can't look back on it like that in retrospect. The point is only that given the choice of two equal unknowns, the owners will take the white guy. That's IMO pretty obvious, IMO pretty racist, and IMO pretty true. In 2006, not 1972. Of course people would rather take a black coach if you were assured he's going to be a winner, but that is never the case and that is a ridiculous argument.

 

I'm sure that somewhere in the south today, a black guy is not getting a job at some factory because the manager is a racist POS. But to assume that mentality extends to everyone involved in pro football coaching (and everywhere else) is just crazy IMO.

 

That is also 100% off the point. The NFL consists of 32 owners, all of which are white. So the mentality may indeed extend to the NFL if a few of these 32 are "racist POS's".

 

If people are so convinced that racism is SO prevalent that a black person can rarely be considered for a job he/she is qualified for, doesn't that stand to reason that the vast majority of people are in fact racist? (Surely it can't be a handful of racists who just happen to be doing all the hiring, can it?) So does that mean that people who believe this consider the majority of their friends, family and acquaintances to be racists? If that's really the state of our country, it can't all be on the other guy, right? Sorry, but I'm not buying it.

 

Perhaps the majority still is. There was a study done a couple years ago where the exact same resumes were sent to human resource departments. Half had names like John and Susan on them, and half had names like Rasheed and Roweena on them. But the resumes were identical. And guess what? The Johns and Susans got call backs on a ridiculously higher scale.

 

It still exists, on a large scale.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

OOoooo This must mean the nfl is racist.

 

or it means that none of those guys are as attractive to head an organization as some other guys, who just so happen to be white.

 

talking about this crap keeps the spirit of racism alive.

 

When guys like ray rhodes are referred to as men instead of black men, or candidates instead of minority candidates, THEN we'll know that we've arrived, and progress has been made.

 

In other words, Gimme a fuggin break.

575322[/snapback]

 

Yes Virginis, the NFL is guilty of racist practices in the not too distant past and by some folks in the present.

 

It is really difficult to draw a distinction in judging the motivation of individuals whether these practices which are still statistically occuring today on the HC scene are motivated by some misguided sense of the good ol boy network (see Matt Millen's violation of the Rooney rule to hire then have to fire Mooch for a likely example of this) or by Marge Schott like owner racism.

 

It does not matter as clearly the former players are currently a majority of A-A descent and clearly they do not have access to HC jobs in anywhere near those numbers.

 

Should the NFL embrace some sort of quota system designed to make HCs look like America?

 

Nope! That would be stupid.

 

51% of NFL coaches should not be women and it is doubtful that 17 women have the qualifications necessary to be HCs. Outside of Norm Chow, I don't think there are even enough Asain-Americans to make the HCs look like America. Folks with some blind allegiance to quotas may use this as the comparison but it would be stupid.

 

Instead, because of the NFL's past and current practices of racist hiring and employee opportunity (seen in people of A-A descent not being allowed to be QBs at a level which met their skills until the late 80s/early 90s and seen today in the pool of potential good HC candidates consisting in substantial of former players who are in majority recently of A-A descent while even with recent efforts only 20% of HCs are of A-A descent), the NFL is pushing the Rooney Rule and forcing its teams to at least provide the opportunity of interviews.

 

If you do not believe that the NFL has engaged in race based hiring and employee management practices in the recent past and currently, then how do YOU explain the NFL failing to employ people of A-A descent routinely as QBs until quite recently. How do YOU explain 20% of NFL coaches being of A-A descent when a majority of current players (a large part of the pool for HCs though far from the total pool) are of A-A descent.

 

There honestly can be other exolanations for this statistical outcome. However, explanations based on mere chance seem foolish. Explanations based on past and present NFL hiring practices being based on results (getting Ws) also seem counter to the experience of success from the few HCs of A-A descent to come into the league (Art Shell hisorically, Tony Dungy and Herm Edwards making the playoffs and getting rehired unlike Shell, and Marvin Lewis and Lovie Smith virtually immediately turning around persistent losing teams).

 

Add into that the good old boy network failing totally when Matt Millen got fined for de facto ignoring the Rooney rule and then having to can the guy he hired because he could not produce the Ws.

 

The NFL has a clear statistical record of recent past and current racial biased hiring practices. One can argue about whether particular individuals are motivated by Matt Millen idiocy which unfortunately supported this history of racial hiring practices or whether there are some NFL owners who lie baseball owner Marge Schott actually has a bunch of Nazi paraphenalia in her sock drawer at home.

 

From a management and reality standpoint the NFL is about fixing its clear racial discrepancies that reflect not giving people their fair shot and not about a focus on who is a racist and who is not.

 

it seems far more intelligent to stick with what we can see and just simply acknowledge that as long as the statitiscal racial discrepancies are there the NFL has racist practices as a real part of its current existence.