Hey AKC...You Were Balls-On Accurate About Brady

[Dante]

You hit the bird on the beak, Cablebabe.  In that first series, Marsha went off at least twice.  It was sweet.  All downhill from there.

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You dont win 3 Super Bowls by melting down and losing your cool. Thats one of Brady's strengths. He didnt lose it yesterday either.

[inkman]

You dont win 3 Super Bowls by melting down and losing your cool. Thats one of Brady's strengths. He didnt lose it yesterday either.

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Are you being serious? He freaked out.

[IDBillzFan]

He didnt lose it yesterday either.

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Not if you compare him to Manning. But he definitely lost his schitt.

[Dawgg]

I'm just stating my opinion.

 

Harrison and Wayne are FAR better than Branch and Givens.

Edgerrin is a much better all-around back than Dillon.

 

So Corey Dillon "pales in comparison" to Edgerrin James and Deion Branch "pales in comparison to old man Harrison?

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[AKC]

I'm just stating my opinion.

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That's what this is all about. Help me to fully understand your opinion because it's a bit confusing to me right now-

 

Harrison and Wayne are FAR better than Branch and Givens. 

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Outside of red zone production, something I'm sure you'll concede has far more to do with QB play and offensive philosophy, Harrison and Branch have little separating them statisically in 2005. There's a gap of from 83 catches to 59 between Wayne and Givens but with similar YPC, etc., but Troy Brown has 25 more grabs than Indy's #3, and I'm not even counting the catches by Tim Dwight against your presumption. Overall, during the 2005 regular season, statistics make it unsupportable to claim the Indy WR rotation is more talented than NE's, in fact just the opposite appears to be the case. The only statistical category where Indy kicked butt among the WR corps is in TD production, and anyone wanting to make some point ultimately in favor of Brady would want to steer clear of this fact that simply is more evidence of his career long red zone difficulties. Manning, as always, holds the edge over Brady on hitting his WRs in the Red Zone. Brady has a nasty little habit of hitting defenders instead in the red zone if you haven't noticed.

 

Edgerrin is a much better all-around back than Dillon.

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Here's where I think the difference is between a lot of media and fans and those of us who like to consider the full skill package of players versus the system they are playing in. You've used the phrase "much better" to describe the all-around skills of Edgerrin James. You'll get no argument from me that he's better in the passing game, both as a receiver and blocker, so calling him "much better" as an all-around back could be fair. At the same time Edgerrin James is not a runner in the same class as Corey Dillon, one of the better pure runners of the past decade. And in fact Dillon's receiving numbers have only become anemic since joining the Pats- in Cincy he saw far more passes come his way. The bottom line is that Belichick wants a feature guy with power and hardly cares whether he can contribute in the passing game. And that's exactly what he got in Dillon, a guy who fits his system perfectly. Is Edgerrin James a BETTER running back than Corey Dillon? It's all based upon the system you play in and I think both would be diminished if playing for the other's team in systems that don't take full advantage of the exceptional skills each bring to the table.

 

So for my money this is exactly the same place that the "Brady is the greatest QB" argument simply fails- of all the offenses on the winning side of NFL Championships and Super Bowls, Brady has the type of skills that might have allowed him to effectively run 15, or maybe at the high end 20% of those offenses. If you look at the more pure QBs with the more complete toolboxes- in the modern era guys like Elway or Steve Young- their skills would allow them to play in 60 or 70 percent of those championship offenses. And as a measure of the "greatest of all time" I think this must be a primary consideration- could you go to another team and have the same success?

[Dawgg]

Fair enough, I do buy your argument that a comparison of two players in different systems is often an apples to oranges comparison. Although I'd still take Harrison (who is still one of THE best route runners in the NFL) over Branch in a heartbeat, I definitely do see your point about Corey Dillon and the role he plays in the NE offense as opposed to the one he played in Cincinatti.

 

 

That's what this is all about. Help me to fully understand your opinion because it's a bit confusing to me right now-

Outside of red zone production, something I'm sure you'll concede has far more to do with QB play and offensive philosophy, Harrison and Branch have little separating them statisically in 2005. There's a gap of from 83 catches to 59 between Wayne and Givens but with similar YPC, etc., but Troy Brown has 25 more grabs than Indy's #3, and I'm not even counting the catches by Tim Dwight against your presumption. Overall, during the 2005 regular season, statistics make it unsupportable to claim the Indy WR rotation is more talented than NE's, in fact just the opposite appears to be the case. The only statistical category where Indy kicked butt among the WR corps is in TD production, and anyone wanting to make some point ultimately in favor of Brady would want to steer clear of this fact that simply is more evidence of his career long red zone difficulties. Manning hold the edge over Brady on hitting his WRs in the Red Zone.

Here's where I think the difference is between a lot of media and fans and those of us who like to consider the full skill package of players versus the system they are playing in. You've used the phrase "much better" to describe the all-around skills of Edgerrin James. You'll get no argument from me that he's better in the passing game, both as a receiver and blocker, so calling him "much better" as an all-around back could be fair. At the same time Edgerrin James is not a runner in the same class as Corey Dillon, one of the better pure runners of the past decade.  And in fact Dillon's receiving numbers have only become anemic since joining the Pats- in Cincy he saw far more passes come his way. The bottom line is that Belichick wants a feature guy to with for power and hardly cares whether he can contribute in the passing game. And that's exactly what he got in Dillon, a guy who fits his system perfectly. Is Edgerrin James a BETTER running back than Corey Dillon? It's all based upon the system you play in and I think both would be diminished if playing for the other's team in systems that don't take full advantage of the exceptional skills each bring to the table.

 

So for my money this is exactly the same place that the "Brady is the greatest QB" argument simply fails- of all the offenses on the winning side of NFL Championships and Super Bowls, Brady has the type of skills that might have allowed him to effectively run 15, or maybe at the high end 20% of those offenses. If you look at the more pure QBs with the more complete toolboxes- in the modern era guys like Elway or Steve Young- their skills would allow them to play in 60 or 70 percent of those championship offenses. And as a measure of the "greatest of all time" I think this must be a primary consideration- could you go to another team and have the same success?

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[AKC]

Although I'd still take Harrison (who is still one of THE best route runners in the NFL) over Branch in a heartbeat,

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I've always been a fan of Marvin Harrison's, a hyper-reliable speed guy without the ego of his contemporaries at the position. When Indy took him just before EMoulds oh so many moons ago this was one fan who was severly disappointed.

 

On the reception totals I missed some the first time through and among the Indy top 4 WRs there were 15 more grabs than among the NE top 4 while NE threw 25 more balls to their RBs. I'd say that's really only significant to the difference in strategy between the two offenses and less significant as some indicator of a major difference in the quality of the receivers.

[JAMIEBUF12]

MARSHA MARSHA MARSHA

[Alaska Darin]

I've always been a fan of Marvin Harrison's, a hyper-reliable speed guy without the ego of his contemporaries at the position. When Indy took him just before EMoulds oh so many moons ago this was one fan who was severly disappointed.

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Me too. Both counts.

[Dawgg]

Most definitely. I think everyone was hoping for Marvin to wear the red white and blue. He was a local product out of Syracuse and it was no secret the Bills coveted him. One can only wonder how Harrison would have fared with the Bills' tenuous QB situation... and extending that thought, how Moulds may have fared in Indy.

 

I've always been a fan of Marvin Harrison's, a hyper-reliable speed guy without the ego of his contemporaries at the position. When Indy took him just before EMoulds oh so many moons ago this was one fan who was severly disappointed.

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[dave mcbride]

I'm just stating my opinion.

 

Harrison and Wayne are FAR better than Branch and Givens. 

Edgerrin is a much better all-around back than Dillon.

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well, i'm one of those weird people who think branch is one of the five best receivers in the league, so i gotta disagree. the clutch catches, the route running, the hands, and the speed/quickness put him in the top echelon. great pick by pioli, who overlooked his height.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Hmmm....well, you'd have to go back and analyze whether they've ever thrown an INT in the endzone in a playoff game.  A game-swinging blunder that would get many QBs lambasted in the press.  The single-most crucial play of the entire game.  Interesting premise.

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Not sure about BJ or TD but, didn't Brady throw a pick in the endzone during one of the playoff games against Indy... Not sure if it was the AFC championship game 2 years ago or the Divisonal game last year?

[Hollywood Donahoe]

Not sure about BJ or TD but, didn't Brady throw a pick in the endzone during one of the playoff games against Indy... Not sure if it was the AFC championship game 2 years ago or the Divisonal game last year?

Yeah, it was in the AFC title game in '03-'04.

 

The Bailey INT was actually Brady's third EZ pick in 11 playoff games, but the first one to come back and bite him (the defense largely bailed him out against Indy, and he bailed himself out against Carolina). And it bit HARD.

[IDBillzFan]

Sorry for the gratuitous bump of one's own thread, but I caught this tidbid in the Tuesday Morning Quarterback, and thought it was worth sharing:

 

Then there was the play where everything went wrong for the defending champions. Denver leading 10-6, New England faced third-and-5 on the Broncos' 5 at the end of the third. Not a bad place for a draw, which might work or lead to a field goal that makes it 10-9. Instead the Patriots pass; Denver big-blitzes; Troy Brown, in the slot left, inexplicably makes no attempt to block blitzing safety Nick Ferguson, who rushes directly over Brown; Ferguson pressures Brady, who instead of throwing the ball away or taking the sack -- often it's a smart play for a quarterback to throw the ball away or take a sack -- heaves a terrible pass that is intercepted by Champ Bailey and returned 100 yards to the New England 1. Not just a terrible pass, but a terrible sideways pass, the kind most prone to long interception returns. Instead of three points for the Pats, seven points for the Broncos. This was the game's decisive play, and on it: bad call by the coaches, botched blocking, bad decision by Brady. I guess the football gods had seen enough of the New England Patriots for a while.