BuffaloWings Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 I think what Donahoe was *trying* to do was basically hire the guy who would be the next great coach, so he'd have that on his resume. Of course, he might have been restricted by Ralph's budget, which could be the reason GW and MM came in. Of course, he hired two guys who constantly made mistakes on & off the field, none of which were to be overcome on the field. I don't think the GW hiring was really that bad of a choice (given what I know now), but he just wasn't ready. Mularkey was just brought into a nearly impossible situation and didn't have the resources to win. Neither coach was helped by Donahoe being so cheap and letting Winfield & Pat Williams go, along with getting bargain basement linemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kultarr Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 Some people just fire poorly, I've found. While not consciencely looking for a "weak" subordinate, they tend to pick people who are "lesser" rather than "greater" than them (whatever the hell that means). I'm not saying TD is that guy, necessarily, but it is possible. 568059[/snapback] Exactly. Some people are not good at hiring. In TD's case, the Cowher thing may or may not have shaped his judgement as honcho of the Bills. Indeed, it is quite possible that TD, himself, isn't even conscious of it. The other pet excuse for the coaching decisions is "RW is a tightwad". I'm not sure this makes any sense though. In the glory years, Ralph was a free spender with one of the highest payrolls in the entire NFL. Besides, TD was the Prez and making all the daily decisions. Even if he was given a budget, are we to believe he couldn't pick up a phone and talk to Ralph and the beancounters and get special dispensation to land the coach that would deliver a Super Bowl to the Buffalo Bills? (I know I read that when the Patriots cut Lawyer Milloy, TD called RW to ask him about it and Ralph replied, "What are you asking me for? Lawyer is a great player; sign him!") Also, although I don't follow the Steelers closely, I seem to recall that when TD was working there, the Steelers were considered a very tight and cheap organization with the Rooneys taking the punches. They seemingly never bothered to even try to re-sign their own free agents, even ones that had some more tread on their tires. (Hmm, Pat Williams?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 Exactly. Some people are not good at hiring. In TD's case, the Cowher thing may or may not have shaped his judgement as honcho of the Bills. Indeed, it is quite possible that TD, himself, isn't even conscious of it. The other pet excuse for the coaching decisions is "RW is a tightwad". I'm not sure this makes any sense though. In the glory years, Ralph was a free spender with one of the highest payrolls in the entire NFL. Besides, TD was the Prez and making all the daily decisions. Even if he was given a budget, are we to believe he couldn't pick up a phone and talk to Ralph and the beancounters and get special dispensation to land the coach that would deliver a Super Bowl to the Buffalo Bills? (I know I read that when the Patriots cut Lawyer Milloy, TD called RW to ask him about it and Ralph replied, "What are you asking me for? Lawyer is a great player; sign him!") Also, although I don't follow the Steelers closely, I seem to recall that when TD was working there, the Steelers were considered a very tight and cheap organization with the Rooneys taking the punches. They seemingly never bothered to even try to re-sign their own free agents, even ones that had some more tread on their tires. (Hmm, Pat Williams?) 568097[/snapback] I think that the myth that Ralph is cheap with the players has been solidly debunked. However, we don't have as much clarity on the front office issues. On one hand, you have subtle grumblings (that SDS posted earlier) that RW didn't like to pay top dollar to coaches, and on the other hand, you have Dwight Adams saying that RW gave the scouting dept everything they asked for. TD is also prime example - he was THE top GM candidate after RW fired Butler, and RW gave him unprecedented control. A lot of this will come out in the wash in th enext few months. It is interesting to see how the regime change is playing out in the media. National media is shocked, local media is doing cartwheels. From the start, TD erected a wall in front of the local guys in favor of feeding his ESPN cronies. His rambling tirade against the local media after GW's firing was a prime example of his thin-skinned demeanor. It's still as puzzling now as it was back then. I do wonder if he had built a better rapport with the Sullivans & Roths, that he would still have a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kultarr Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 I think what Donahoe was *trying* to do was basically hire the guy who would be the next great coach, so he'd have that on his resume. Of course, he might have been restricted by Ralph's budget, which could be the reason GW and MM came in. It is possible, of course. But somehow, deep down, I have to believe that Ralph would do what it took to land a great coach. If the scenario was "the next Bill Parcells" wanting to come to Buffalo and win and a few million jr. bacon cheeseburgers was the only roadblock... Of course, he hired two guys who constantly made mistakes on & off the field, none of which were to be overcome on the field. I don't think the GW hiring was really that bad of a choice (given what I know now), but he just wasn't ready. Mularkey was just brought into a nearly impossible situation and didn't have the resources to win. Neither coach was helped by Donahoe being so cheap and letting Winfield & Pat Williams go, along with getting bargain basement linemen. 568091[/snapback] Agreed. It's not clear that MM wasn't just a big hand puppet, but he certainly got emasculated over and over -- hard to be taken seriously as a leader when that keeps happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kultarr Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 I do wonder if he had built a better rapport with the Sullivans & Roths, that he would still have a job. 568114[/snapback] Attitude, and the perceptions that stem from it, should not be underestimated. Blaming the fans and the local media for the failure of the team, even if it is implicit and by rumor and innuendo, is just plain ridiculous, and absolutely positively not a trait that one wants in the Prez. of their entertainment-based organization. That is why Ralph showed not a hint of hesitation in pulling the trigger on TD, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 It is interesting to see how the regime change is playing out in the media. National media is shocked, local media is doing cartwheels. From the start, TD erected a wall in front of the local guys in favor of feeding his ESPN cronies. His rambling tirade against the local media after GW's firing was a prime example of his thin-skinned demeanor. It's still as puzzling now as it was back then. I do wonder if he had built a better rapport with the Sullivans & Roths, that he would still have a job. 568114[/snapback] i've been thinking the same thing this week. as far as i can tell, he never gave *anything* to the locals. not even felser. obviously, that was not wise, and that alone makes me wonder about his judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 From the start, TD erected a wall in front of the local guys in favor of feeding his ESPN cronies. His rambling tirade against the local media after GW's firing was a prime example of his thin-skinned demeanor. It's still as puzzling now as it was back then. I do wonder if he had built a better rapport with the Sullivans & Roths, that he would still have a job. 568114[/snapback] one other thing tied to this -- pasquarelli especially but espn in general were never fed much by butler, and pasquarelli in turn has never given praise to butler and smith. more to the point, when john butler died, i followed pasquarelli, and he never wrote one word about it. not *one* word about a well respected and established guy who died way too early, and this is from a guy who loves to put himself forth as a writer who writes about "good football men." ron hill is another guy pasquarelli is always blowing up. why? because hill is a good source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 I was just thinking how, at the time, we thought we had made a great hire in TD. Detriot had hired Matt Millen out of the press box and a lot of people were scratching their heads and/or laughing outright at that move. 5 years later, both the Lions and Bills are organizations left in a shambles. Neither made any improvement. Both have become fixtures on the coaching carousel, a very bad place to be. The big difference is that the Lions are being patient and sticking with their guy Millen. Ralph decided enough was enough and jettisoned Teflon. Oddly enough, the national media is in attack dog mode in both cases. The Lions have idiot ownership because they won't get rid of the worst GM in the NFL. The Bills are the worst organization ever because they are impatient and want to win now and replaced a "good football man" with an old geezer who doesn't know squat (but happens to be in the football Hall of Fame?). Why the double standard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Great question. Here's the answer: Tom Donahoe is a master at spinning the media and has the ESPN crew in his back pocket from the years he worked there. Not to mention him and Len P are childhood friends. While Matt Millen used to work in the booth, he hasn't built the strong relationships TD has. Oddly enough, the national media is in attack dog mode in both cases. The Lions have idiot ownership because they won't get rid of the worst GM in the NFL. The Bills are the worst organization ever because they are impatient and want to win now and replaced a "good football man" with an old geezer who doesn't know squat (but happens to be in the football Hall of Fame?). Why the double standard? 569722[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 I was just thinking how, at the time, we thought we had made a great hire in TD. Nonsense. The majority of Bills fans (atr least on this board) had no idea who he was and were screaming and crying about the stupidity of hiring "some reporter from ESPN". 5 years later, both the Lions and Bills are organizations left in a shambles. The Bills organization was just fine. It wasn't in a shambles until our idiot owner blew everything up after 1 predictably bad year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Nonsense. The majority of Bills fans (atr least on this board) had no idea who he was and were screaming and crying about the stupidity of hiring "some reporter from ESPN". Nonsense indeed. I don't recall a lot of the professional pundits questioning the hiring of Donahoe. I also do not recall a majority of fans crying about the hire. I do recall a few posters being the Donahoe standard bearers and trying to make the case that the guy,literally, never made a single error in judgement, not one. As that is an easily assailed position, I think taking some shots on that stance was not only expected but warranted. The Bills organization was just fine. It wasn't in a shambles until our idiot owner blew everything up after 1 predictably bad year. 569758[/snapback] 1 year? Make that 5 for 5. Predictably bad? I guess Teflon Tom should have surrounded himself with better predictors because he was selling his team as a playoff caliber team at the start of the season. Now that it is over, "everyone" knew it would be a bad year? By the way, the way you state that, it seems like TD had nothing at all to do with the "1 bad year" which is of course rather ridiculous. This entire organization had his fingerprints all over everything. TD was enough of a man to not try and duck and cover on that. He admitted he should have been held accountable for the train wreck of the 2005 season. I heard it from his own lips several times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 I don't recall a lot of the professional pundits questioning the hiring of Donahoe. I also do not recall a majority of fans crying about the hire. I wasn't talking about professional pundits, I was talking about the fans on this board. And there were plenty of them who were very vocally pissed off about it. I do recall a few posters being the Donahoe standard bearers and trying to make the case that the guy,literally, never made a single error in judgement, not one. Yeah, I'm sure somebody claimed he was 100% perfect. Nothing like a little outlandish hyperbole to support a tenous position. 1 year? Make that 5 for 5. The Bills had shown steady improvement since he took the reins. 2005 was the only really bad year under his tenure. And for that one bad year, he was fired and the Bills were torn apart with no viable replacement plan available. Brilliant. Predictably bad? I guess Teflon Tom should have surrounded himself with better predictors because he was selling his team as a playoff caliber team at the start of the season. Now that it is over, "everyone" knew it would be a bad year? The Bills lost their best OLineman, the lynchpin of their defense and decided it was a good time to break in a rookie QB. Did you seriously expect the President of the Bills to run around predicting our own struggles? Gimme a freakin break. It's not his fault that a bunch of senseless yahoos couldn't see that these factors were going to cause real problems in 2005, only to compound when the Bills suffered a rash of injuries. By the way, the way you state that, it seems like TD had nothing at all to do with the "1 bad year" which is of course rather ridiculous. What is rather ridiculous is that you could possibly infer that I was even trying to imply something so stupid. Of course he was responsible, he was the freaking President/GM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 This is where I have a problem with Donahoe and his regime. It was well known for a long time that Jennings' contract was up and there was not a single, viable replacement on the roster. A good GM will forecast this and draft someone to take his place. Perhaps that's what he had in mind with the likes of Marques Sullivan and Sobieski.. but both turned out to be busts. The Bills lost their best OLineman, the lynchpin of their defense and decided it was a good time to break in a rookie QB. 569813[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 outlandish hyperbole Apparently, you have forgotten about a certain "very cold poster" then. What is rather ridiculous is that you could possibly infer that I was even trying to imply something so stupid. Of course he was responsible, he was the freaking President/GM. 569813[/snapback] How's that stress level, bud? Is the needle pegged or what? OK, fine. In fact, you have been very careful to not make your position known (at least in this thread). So what is your position? Your signature suggests that you don't like the owner of the Buffalo Bills. You're calling "most posters" out as imbeciles -- not really sure why. (I don't think Ralph bases any decisions he makes on posts in this or any other internet forum.) Did you seriously expect the President of the Bills to run around predicting our own struggles? Of course not. What I would expect is for TD to be honest about it and realistic. There is nothing wrong with saying that the team needed to step back and take a new direction and that there will be growing pains. What the hell, he might even have a long list of damn good reasons why it was necessary. The fans might get ansey with the losing, but the leadership should stick to their convictions and plans. "We have to get through the growing pains. We don't have all the pieces in place quite yet. etc." But that is not what happened. The early spin was that the defense was so great it would carry the team, and then when Losman did not work out the plans for the future were seemingly thrown right out the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Nonsense. The majority of Bills fans (atr least on this board) had no idea who he was and were screaming and crying about the stupidity of hiring "some reporter from ESPN". 569758[/snapback] that's not my recollection at all. my very, very strong recollection is that almost everyone (myself included) from the local media to the various chatboards was extremely high on the hire in 2001. in fact, the term that comes to mind when remembering how his hire was received is "savior." I can't even think of any dissenters except that "heinz" guy who interloped from pittsburgh and quickly made himself scarce after numerous angry ripostes to his argument that it was all modrak and that donohoe performed poorly after TM left pitt. i'm in no way suggesting he was right. he was, however, the only dissenter i can think of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Apparently, you have forgotten about a certain "very cold poster" then. Your basing your statements on something ice said?! Although I guess it wouldn't be technically incorrect to refer to him as a "few posters". How's that stress level, bud? Is the needle pegged or what? Not quite. I've already resigned myself to the fact that the Bills have taken a pointless step backwards and in all probability are going to fritter away the young talent they've accumulated and spend the next several years struggling badly. They will then blow it all up after a few years and start all over again and still be in far worse shape than they were a month ago. But they're not the only team in the league so I'll find good football to watch. you have been very careful to not make your position known (at least in this thread). So what is your position? Donahoe and Co. were gradually building something solid then intentionally took a step backwards in hopes of taking two steps forward. Ralph and a weakened fanbase then panicked at the first sign of adversity and tore it all up without a viable alternative in place. What I would expect is for TD to be honest about it and realistic. There is nothing wrong with saying that the team needed to step back and take a new direction and that there will be growing pains. Yeah, that was going to happen. GM's are widely renowned for their honesty and willingness to predict future struggles. the leadership should stick to their convictions and plans. "We have to get through the growing pains. We don't have all the pieces in place quite yet. etc." But that is not what happened. You're right, that's not what happened. Instead of sticking to a solid plan and going through the growing pains, our fans and owner ran screaming like little girls and started firing people. What strength in the face of adversity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 that's not my recollection at all. my very, very strong recollection is that almost everyone (myself included) from the local media to the various chatboards was extremely high on the hire in 2001. in fact, the term that comes to mind when remembering how his hire was received is "savior." I can't even think of any dissenters except that "heinz" guy who interloped from pittsburgh and quickly made himself scarce after numerous angry ripostes to his argument that it was all modrak and that donohoe performed poorly after TM left pitt. i'm in no way suggesting he was right. he was, however, the only dissenter i can think of. 569882[/snapback] That's my recollection as well. TD was by far the best available & known candidate at the time. Other potential names were Angelo, AJ Smith, and the Redskins cap guy. But overwhelmingly, people were jumping up & down for TD (except the GHZ guy you're talking about) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BackInDaDay Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Instead of sticking to a solid plan and going through the growing pains, our fans and owner ran screaming like little girls and started firing people.569887[/snapback] I agree, but the panic began in week three and post-season firings were preceded by in-season benchings. Now, did Mularkey and Donahoe panic or were their buttons pushed by a higher power? They may not have broke camp with a very "solid plan", but there was a plan, and it was abandoned rather prematurely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Or was it he liked to meddle and knew an established HC wouldn't allow him ? You don't think losing the power struggle to Cowher affected his hiring practices ? I do. 567158[/snapback] I do too. What's more, he violated every sound principle that he successfully employed in Pittsburgh wrt the draft. In Pitt, he went for solid defenders and blockers. In Buffalo, his drafts included injured players, an extreme reach at qb and a circus side-show act. I am thinking that TD wanted weak coaches in order to flex his muscles and have total control. The truth is that he DID have it, and he failed miserably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Donahoe and Co. were gradually building something solid then intentionally took a step backwards in hopes of taking two steps forward. Ralph and a weakened fanbase then panicked at the first sign of adversity and tore it all up without a viable alternative in place. 569887[/snapback] You had me until this one. This was not an intentional step backward. If it was, the administration did a very good job of covering it up, until Bills lost to Miami. Of course that's what ushered TD out of town, and for good reason. You can't treat the fans & local media with contempt. Addition by subtraction? "He helped us get to a good level," Donahoe said of Bledsoe. "We want to go beyond that level." Coach Mike Mularkey said Losman's strong arm and scrambling ability are better suited for his multidimensional offensive philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts