Bravo John Stossel!

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

I just finished watching his scathing report: "Stupid in America".

 

He very adroitly pointed out WHY American schools are failing...the two-headed behemoth of too much government married to a corrupt union system.

 

If I had my druthers, teachers unions would be locked out much like the NHL players were. When they're starving sufficiently, or being forced to work in the REAL WORLD for a while, these greedy ineffective unionized teachers will BEG to return to their cush jobs.

 

Also, he made a highly effective argument for vouchers by pointing out the BELGIUM, perhaps one of the most socialized nations on Earth attaches their education dollars to the student, meaning that a parent has the choice of where to send their kids.

 

Time to break the education associations and tear down the department of ed. We need a new way.

 

I'll be damned if I send my daughter to a public school.

[Gavin in Va Beach]

Just watched the same show and was horrified. If I gotta work 3 jobs to send the kids to private school then that's what I'm doing.

[Alaska Darin]

Gee, I've only been saying that here for 5 years.

[EC-Bills]

Gee, I've only been saying that here for 5 years.

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Well maybe if you grew the Stossal mustache you would be taken a little more seriously here...

[X. Benedict]

Although I didn't see the John Stossel report, I think the idea that American schools are largely failing is a myth. Of course you could provide cross cultural data that says the Chinese are scoring better in mathematics or something like that, but those comparisons are rather odious because it assumes that a factory floor model of education is actually of benefit to kids because of test scores.

 

The question is, if American schools are failing, whose kids are they failing.

A higher percentage of students graduate from High School than ever before with almost one quarter of the population holding a bachelors degree. If anything we are overeducated for much of the work that needs to be done in an America which is swithching to the service sector.

 

Most people are satisfied with the quality of the schools they send their children to, and probably the best guarantee that your child does well in school is that a parent takes an active interest.

 

Having said all that, see what would happen in most schools if you required a 90 average to participate in team sports in high school. The parents would flip out!

It is more likely that school boards and parents are standing in the way of a decent education (parents and school boards most often prove to be more anti-intellectual than teachers, and are the ones that set standards).

 

If public schools are failing, how are they failing? or how do you quantify such a thing?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

If public schools are failing, how are they failing? or how do you quantify such a thing?

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I heard a statistic (can't remember where) that 40% of college graduates can't read on a high school level.

 

THAT is a failure.

[X. Benedict]

I heard a statistic (can't remember where) that 40% of college graduates can't read on a high school level.

 

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Myth.

[GG]

Myth.

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But the fact that nearly 30% of US kids can't find the Pacific Ocean on the map, isn't.

 

Of course, schools aren't fully to blame. Kids of parents who care about learning will learn. The bigger issue to me, is that over the last 30 years, in the various efforts to make sure that no kids are left behind, you are dumbing down the educational system to reach the lower denominator, instead of trying to raise the denominator.

 

Charter schools are only a part of the solution, because ostensively, these schools will benefit the kids who want to learn - good thing. That will leave the kids who could care less about learning in traditional public schools in a continuing downward spiral - bad thing.

 

Thus, the debate of what should the public education system do? Teach everyone based on a diminishing standard, or try to direct kids to where they're most likely to succeed?

[colin]

But the fact that nearly 30% of US kids can't find the Pacific Ocean on the map, isn't.

 

Of course, schools aren't fully to blame.  Kids of parents who care about learning will learn.  The bigger issue to me, is that over the last 30 years, in the various efforts to make sure that no kids are left behind, you are dumbing down the educational system to reach the lower denominator, instead of trying to raise the denominator. 

 

Charter schools are only a part of the solution, because ostensively, these schools will benefit the kids who want to learn - good thing.  That will leave the kids who could care less about learning in traditional public schools in a continuing downward spiral - bad thing.

 

Thus, the debate of what should the public education system do?  Teach everyone based on a diminishing standard, or try to direct kids to where they're most likely to succeed?

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the diminishing standard is the big thing here.

 

there are some stupid kids. they nearly always have stupid parents and in many cases have never challenged their brains (just like there are fat sloppy kids who have fat sloppy parents and have never challenenged their bodies).

 

dumb kids will have to struggle their whole lives to scratch the surface of average on most things. they tend to be lazy and more of them than average will be violent or cruel or disruptive.

 

public school (in the states and canada for the most part) caters to them at the expense of average to smart children. if sports catered to the fat slow lazy clowns, we'd never have a pop warner game worth playing let alone the NFL.

 

smarter and particularly more driven children should take harder and more rewarding courses than little morons.

 

the number of students in a class isn't the largest factor either. having fewer students per teacher is generally so that little idiots can get extra help because their barely double digit IQ brains can't understand fractions.

 

the model of schools being large central institutions that have to be all things to all people is just bad.

 

the teachers in these schools are more often than not pretty poor as well. the smarter and more ambitious people stay clear of teaching, so you end up with not too bright people who think showing up is enough and that's why schools graduate idiots.

 

you can look at what students in south korea, hungary, many parts of india, japan, hong kong, and france learn to how under stimulated many young people are in public school here.

[/dev/null]

The question is, if American schools are failing, whose kids are they failing.

A higher percentage of students graduate from High School than ever before with almost one quarter of the population holding a bachelors degree. If anything we are overeducated for much of the work that needs to be done in an America which is swithching to the service sector.

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Or perhaps the standards have been lowered?

 

But you're right on one thing, where are the kids who fail? They are few and far between. It takes more effort and justification by a public school teacher to fail a student than it does to bump up their grade and let them slide.

 

Motherment wouldn't want to hurt any of these kids self esteem

[ExiledInIllinois]

I am in the middle here. I didn't see the Stossel show. I DO send my kids to a private school... I live in a very working poor area.

 

Yet, I am torn... I feel the emotion that people are expressing about the show and report... Yet, I hear what X Benedict is saying. Who are they failing? I have a feeling it would be the kids in my school district.

 

Aren't kids learning earlier than they ever did in the past? The amount of material that is being crammed into 12 years has got to be the most ever? They are losing basic skills... But, isn't technology a root of that problem?

 

Every generation feels that their kids are getting dumber. For all the "new" skills that are being introduced, where do the old skills find a place? Or do we just forgo some of the old skills to make room for what technology gives us?

 

Historically, education in this country has never really been seen as a total priority. In the early days, it was secondary... Poor school conditions, horrid health issues existed within the system. Today, largely those poor physical conditions in the education system have been eliminated... For what, this?

 

And this all on Ben Franklin's 300th birthday. A Ben Franklin who spent a total of 2 years in formalized education.

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

But the fact that nearly 30% of US kids can't find the Pacific Ocean on the map, isn't.

 

Of course, schools aren't fully to blame.  Kids of parents who care about learning will learn.  The bigger issue to me, is that over the last 30 years, in the various efforts to make sure that no kids are left behind, you are dumbing down the educational system to reach the lower denominator, instead of trying to raise the denominator.  

 

Charter schools are only a part of the solution, because ostensively, these schools will benefit the kids who want to learn - good thing.  That will leave the kids who could care less about learning in traditional public schools in a continuing downward spiral - bad thing.

 

Thus, the debate of what should the public education system do?  Teach everyone based on a diminishing standard, or try to direct kids to where they're most likely to succeed?

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You ask very good questions GG.

 

IMO, teach where they will likely succeed... This might also entail a diminishing standard. I know it is shocking and it bothers me that stuff like finding the Pacific Ocean is falling by the wayside. That is a little extreme though but, where to we draw the line on stuff that may be useless in order to fill skills that are needed in today's world?

 

Again, hasn't this been debated thoughout the ages?

 

I know alot of this stuff ("dumbing down") makes for great shows and lots of laughs.

[ExiledInIllinois]

I know they mention "socialized" Belgium and their vouchers.

 

Is there a large "underclass" in Belgium?

 

Vouchers would raise the bar. What happens to the students that miss that bar can't find room with the quality institutions. Now these marginalized students are in an even worse situation than exists today.

 

Can the system handle the physical contraints that vouchers bring with "reshuffling" of students?

[colin]

I know they mention "socialized" Belgium and their vouchers.

 

Is there a large "underclass" in Belgium?

 

Vouchers would raise the bar.  What happens to the students that miss that bar can't find room with the quality institutions.  Now these marginalized students are in an even worse situation than exists today.

 

Can the system handle the physical contraints that vouchers bring with "reshuffling" of students?

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the "underclass" in america can easily live better than the below average european.

 

all the need is a job.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Myth.

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Myth?

[Chilly]

Myth?

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Polls are only right when they support your viewpoint, eh?

[X. Benedict]

Myth?

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By this study's standards:

 

"Only 41 percent of graduate students tested in 2003 could be classified as "proficient" in prose -- reading and understanding information in short texts -- down 10 percentage points since 1992"

 

This essentially means that only 59% of Masters and PhD candidates are functionally literate today by their own standards. Of course the ALA has a vested interest in promoting such studies, which makes me wonder, how many current Masters in Library Science candidates participated in the sample?

[Pete]

I have worked with high school and college kids amongst adults for 20 years and it amazes me how inept teachers are. Currently I am teaching a 22 year old college sophmore how to do long division. I learned division in second grade. That means 11 teachers did not do their job and teach this kid. WTF? I am in the restauraunt business- not a teacher. A teacher that does not care about students is criminal. I taught another college kid how to read a clock- for real! The kid was never taught how to tell time. I am ready to battle the school board, sending letters to them, the local news, the newspapers and state "what the !@#$ is going on in your schools?"!

[ExiledInIllinois]

I have worked with high school and college kids amongst adults for 20 years and it amazes me how inept teachers are.  Currently I am teaching a 22 year old college sophmore how to do long division.  I learned division in second grade.  That means 11 teachers did not do their job and teach this kid.  WTF?  I am in the restauraunt business- not a teacher.  A teacher that does not care about students is criminal.  I taught another college kid how to read a clock- for real!  The kid was never taught how to tell time.  I am ready to battle the school board, sending letters to them, the local news, the newspapers and state "what the !@#$ is going on in your schools?"!

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That is a shame.

 

If I find my 7 year old son "cheating" by looking at a digital clock when I ask him what time it is... I go ballistic!

 

There is nothing wrong with reading an analog clock!

 

[The Avenger]

There are a number of things wrong with the education system today, but to lay all the blame at the feet of teachers, big government and the teachers unions in wrong.

 

Here are some of the problems, as I see them:

 

-Not enough parents care about their child's education. Many think they send their kids to school and they shouldn't have to particpate at all in their child's education. They don't help kids with homework, they may not even care if their kid does their homework. I believe the biggest reason a kid fails in school is that education is not valued or practiced at home.

 

-Public schools have to educate EVERYONE. They don't get to select only those students who want to learn, come from families that understand and support education, and have the desire to learn. They have to take kids from all walks of life, including those kids who have much bigger concerns about learning (gangs, drugs, poverty, bad home situations, etc.). I don't think I'd have had a very successful education if I lived in poverty and went home to an abusive home every day. When you have to teach EVERYONE, this certainly brings down the average.

 

-Ever wonder why the only government expenditure you actually get a vote on is the public school budget? You don't get to vote for the police, fire, town road budgets, do you? In a climate why people are tired of taxes they take the opportunity to vote down their taxes whenever they can. Add in people who feel that they shouldn't have to pay any school taxes because they don't have kids or don't have kids in public school, and you often have a hard time passing the budget. Funny how these same people complain about how class sizes are too big and the kids come out of the system stupid.

 

-There seems to be a growing call to teach EVERYTHING in school. Your kid didn't learn about sex? The schools should have taught him. Kid doesn't know how to register to vote? School should have tagught him. It seem that the rule is that if the subject matter could be included in a book, the schools should teach it because "its book learning". There's only so much time in a day, folks - the schools can't teach your kid everything from how to wipe himself to how to do calculus.

 

Are there bad teachers out there? - you bet. The teachers unions protect bad teachers because, well, they're union members. These things don't help. But to say that this is the fault of teachers is a slap in the face to every good teacher out there (and there are plenty) who works hard to make sure your kid is learning as much as he possibly can given the situation (hey, somebody's got to, right?).