BuffOrange Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I'm just wondering if by the logic of this thread - does this make Freeney a bad pick because people were calling him a reach? If that's a bad pick, then I don't want to be good. 562689[/snapback] Exactly - everyone loved the Ravens draft when they traded up to get Kyle freaking Boeller. Draft success should be evaluated on performance, not by Mel Kiper's grades in April. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I'm just wondering if by the logic of this thread - does this make Freeney a bad pick because people were calling him a reach? If that's a bad pick, then I don't want to be good. A GM has to be held accountable for the bottom line and nothing else. Maybe Big Mike failed because he had two stupid head coaches that didn't use him right. But Maybe GW and MM have failed (so far) because they have lazy players. So you can't necessarily call either one a bad move in isolation. And as long as that holds, and no move move on its own can be THE move that ruined the team, then how can you hold TD responsible? It's the bottom line. 562689[/snapback] Can a GM be held accountable if a player gets injured? Can a GM be held accountable for contracts due to slotting in the first round? Mike Williams so far has been a bust. But the buck stops here mentality of fans is, to me, just foolish a lot of times. Part of the reason Donohoe is gone is because he made several poor decisions in retrospect that led to not enough wins as the Bills should have had. But Mike Williams failure, to me, was part Donohoe making a poor choice (with few other options, like McKinnie), part NFL rules for the ridiculous slotting/salaries of rookies that forced us to pay him 10 mil, part bad luck due to injuries, part the death of his grandmother, part Mike Williams himself screwing up or not getting his head together, part the chaos of the rest of the Bills players and coaches screwing up, and other things we're probably not aware of. Frankly, if Mike Williams didn't get a couple freak injuries, he probably would be a damn good RT right now. Can you blame TD for not knowing this was going to happen? I think that's nuts. If you really believe in the buck stops here why stop at TD? Why not Ralph for hiring him and saying Mike Williams was totally Ralph's fault? Donohoe, again, probably needed to go. But the failure of Mike Williams was not simply because TD is stupid, a lousy talent evaluator, doesn't care about the offensive line, a terrible GM or a lot of the other tripe disguised as posts around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Agree. MW was held in the same regard as Debrickshaw Furgeson is right now. Imagnine if we select ferguson and 4 years from now he is Mike Williams. Was it a mistake? Yes. Would Marv be responsible for this mistake? No, not really. Nobody would see it coming. Its a consensus pick. TD gets a pass on the MW pick. 562566[/snapback] To compare D'Brickashaw's hype to Mike Williams' is a little foolish. As D'Brickashaw has been widely considered the best OT in the draft and arguebly the best OT that would have been available last season. As I seem to recall Mike Williams stock rose as the draft got closer and closer. Also there's one thing everyone seems to "forget" about Mike Williams. He was a right OT at Texas and oddly enough he's a right OT in the NFL. Some made the arguement that it was "because Chris Simms was a lefty" but truth be told there's a difference between Left (which D'Brickashaw is) and Right OT. This is why some fans, like myself, were against the selection of MW to begin with. As I ultimately don't think the team was foolish enough to think they could shift him over to Left OT (but some fans did) instead I feel the Bills thought they were getting another Willie Anderson (perennial Pro Bowler at Right OT) in BIG Mike but he failed in part because of his injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dry martini Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Can a GM be held accountable if a player gets injured? Can a GM be held accountable for contracts due to slotting in the first round? Mike Williams so far has been a bust. But the buck stops here mentality of fans is, to me, just foolish a lot of times. Part of the reason Donohoe is gone is because he made several poor decisions in retrospect that led to not enough wins as the Bills should have had. But Mike Williams failure, to me, was part Donohoe making a poor choice (with few other options, like McKinnie), part NFL rules for the ridiculous slotting/salaries of rookies that forced us to pay him 10 mil, part bad luck due to injuries, part the death of his grandmother, part Mike Williams himself screwing up or not getting his head together, part the chaos of the rest of the Bills players and coaches screwing up, and other things we're probably not aware of. Frankly, if Mike Williams didn't get a couple freak injuries, he probably would be a damn good RT right now. Can you blame TD for not knowing this was going to happen? I think that's nuts. If you really believe in the buck stops here why stop at TD? Why not Ralph for hiring him and saying Mike Williams was totally Ralph's fault? Donohoe, again, probably needed to go. But the failure of Mike Williams was not simply because TD is stupid, a lousy talent evaluator, doesn't care about the offensive line, a terrible GM or a lot of the other tripe disguised as posts around here. 562702[/snapback] and a quick follow-up, if put in the same position as TD, you can bet the bank Marv would have done the same thing. You had a franchise that was screaming for a tackle, two equally rated monsters coming out of college, one of which was mouthing off about not wanting to come to Buffalo and carrying on about never giving up a sack in college, and the other acting like the citizen of the year. Which would character-Marv have selected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMIEBUF12 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 i didnt think it was a mistake pick either,i really wanted swight freeny though and i would have been just as bad as a gm because if i had taken a olineman i wnated bryant mcginney over mike.i remeber how they were saying bryant never gave a sack up before in college,but he has done about the same job as mike so there you go.mike will be here a long time and who knows maybe he will be a all pro guard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tortured Soul Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Can a GM be held accountable if a player gets injured? Can a GM be held accountable for contracts due to slotting in the first round? Mike Williams so far has been a bust. But the buck stops here mentality of fans is, to me, just foolish a lot of times. Part of the reason Donohoe is gone is because he made several poor decisions in retrospect that led to not enough wins as the Bills should have had. But Mike Williams failure, to me, was part Donohoe making a poor choice (with few other options, like McKinnie), part NFL rules for the ridiculous slotting/salaries of rookies that forced us to pay him 10 mil, part bad luck due to injuries, part the death of his grandmother, part Mike Williams himself screwing up or not getting his head together, part the chaos of the rest of the Bills players and coaches screwing up, and other things we're probably not aware of. Frankly, if Mike Williams didn't get a couple freak injuries, he probably would be a damn good RT right now. Can you blame TD for not knowing this was going to happen? I think that's nuts. If you really believe in the buck stops here why stop at TD? Why not Ralph for hiring him and saying Mike Williams was totally Ralph's fault? Donohoe, again, probably needed to go. But the failure of Mike Williams was not simply because TD is stupid, a lousy talent evaluator, doesn't care about the offensive line, a terrible GM or a lot of the other tripe disguised as posts around here. 562702[/snapback] First, a GM can be held accountable for salary slotting if he's the reason they were slotted 4th in the first place. Plus, he could've traded down. But that's really beside the point. No, the failure is not totally TD's fault - and the best evidence of this is that Big Mike will have to take a substantial paycut or be cut. But you also have to hold TD accountable for such other things as TD's failure to find an adequate backup in the later rounds, etc. I think this team was relatively injury-free for the Donahoe tenure. And if you don't believe my point about people able to make excuses for any of TD's moves, just read the thread defending Gregg Williams. In isolation, anything can be explained. Eventually, a pattern develops. And I do hold hold Ralph accountable. But he's never going to get fired. and a quick follow-up, if put in the same position as TD, you can bet the bank Marv would have done the same thing. You had a franchise that was screaming for a tackle, two equally rated monsters coming out of college, one of which was mouthing off about not wanting to come to Buffalo and carrying on about never giving up a sack in college, and the other acting like the citizen of the year. Which would character-Marv have selected? 562785[/snapback] I think Marv will look at a guy who's badly out of shape and question his character and dedication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kultarr Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 And I do hold hold Ralph accountable. But he's never going to get fired.I think Marv will look at a guy who's badly out of shape and question his character and dedication. 562856[/snapback] The "character" that is not of any importance here is "he's a jolly soul", "he looks great in a suit and tie", or "he is a good product spokesman". Fat Mike excels at these, sure. The character that is important is work ethic, dedication to the team and the sport, and commitment to doing the job to the absolute best of one's ability. Fat Mike is a bust when it comes to those qualities. I have no idea if Marv would've pulled the trigger just like Donahoe. Still, Fat Mike was a RT (never a LT) drafted to be a LT, there were questions about his weight and conditioning, he had a history of leg problems (a bad knee) ... so it is not out of the question that another GM might not have taken Fat Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsWatch Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I'm glad the TD era is over, but I am sick of reading that drafting Mike Williams was one of Donahoe's biggest mistakes. Nobody said that at the time. At the time, he was all over ESPN, big Mike. great pick, yadda yadda. 562562[/snapback] I do not think the big mistake was hiring GW, I think it was allowing GW to bring in any coach he wanted to including a lot of coaches who were good "teachers" but had little experience. If they HAD good coaches then Milke Williams might have developed by 2nd year rather than late in 2rd year and then get hurt ruining progress. Second biggest mistake was promoting Rusty against his will just so MM could bring in his own Strength and Conditioning coach - if it is not broke, do not break it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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