Mikie2times Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 What I'm pretty sure about right now is Kelly Holcomb is a good back up, and nothing more and JP Losman hasn't been on the field long enough for us to get an accurate long term read. The question becomes at what price should the Bills be willing to pay to get JP the experience he needs for us to make a long term decision? We were supposed to come out of this season with those answers, and if we couldn't do it this year what makes people believe we can do it next year? Buffalo made it clear Kelly Holcomb gave them the best chance to win this year; effectively sucking the team’s confidence in JP Losman right threw the drain. Are we supposed to expect Mularkey to handle the team much differently next season? What happens when Kelly outplays JP in camp, or the preseason, and many of the same players from this year wonder why Mularkey isn't starting the best QB? Even if Mularkey holds firm which is what he did not do in 2005, does he have enough respect from the players for them to back his decision? The problem is not in Kelly and JP's relationship, but in Kelly and JP's play together. Kelly is not a very good QB, but he still will be good enough to beat out JP Losman in camp next year. That would be typical of an average veteran as compared to an inexperienced but talented QB, and as we saw in 2005 was certainly the case with JP and Kelly. But much like 2005 if Kelly is outplaying JP in 2006 I just don't think Mularkey will be able to get the players to back the move to go with JP, not after what happened this year, and that will leave us with many of the same problems we had in 2005 in 2006. In order to fix the situation I would like to see the Bills release Kelly Holcomb, and focus on landing a better QB in Jon Kitna. We can then offer the job to JP Losman if and when he is able to beat out Kitna. Kitna brings many of the same veteran qualities Kelly has, but he protects the ball better, and can go down field. At least this way we won't have to settle for a mediocre QB play from Holcomb, or let a player with 8 career starts hijack the franchise. In hindsight I'm sure Mularkey and Co. wish they handled the situation differently, but they created the monster and must fix it for next season.
obie_wan Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 What I'm pretty sure about right now is Kelly Holcomb is a good back up, and nothing more and JP Losman hasn't been on the field long enough for us to get an accurate long term read. The question becomes at what price should the Bills be willing to pay to get JP the experience he needs for us to make a long term decision? We were supposed to come out of this season with those answers, and if we couldn't do it this year what makes people believe we can do it next year? Buffalo made it clear Kelly Holcomb gave them the best chance to win this year; effectively sucking the team’s confidence in JP Losman right threw the drain. Are we supposed to expect Mularkey to handle the team much differently next season? What happens when Kelly outplays JP in camp, or the preseason, and many of the same players from this year wonder why Mularkey isn't starting the best QB? Even if Mularkey holds firm which is what he did not do in 2005, does he have enough respect from the players for them to back his decision? The problem is not in Kelly and JP's relationship, but in Kelly and JP's play together. Kelly is not a very good QB, but he still will be good enough to beat out JP Losman in camp next year. That would be typical of an average veteran as compared to an inexperienced but talented QB, and as we saw in 2005 was certainly the case with JP and Kelly. But much like 2005 if Kelly is outplaying JP in 2006 I just don't think Mularkey will be able to get the players to back the move to go with JP, not after what happened this year, and that will leave us with many of the same problems we had in 2005 in 2006. In order to fix the situation I would like to see the Bills release Kelly Holcomb, and focus on landing a better QB in Jon Kitna. We can then offer the job to JP Losman if and when he is able to beat out Kitna. Kitna brings many of the same veteran qualities Kelly has, but he protects the ball better, and can go down field. At least this way we won't have to settle for a mediocre QB play from Holcomb, or let a player with 8 career starts hijack the franchise. In hindsight I'm sure Mularkey and Co. wish they handled the situation differently, but they created the monster and must fix it for next season. 559404[/snapback] sure couldn't gp downfield against the Steelers they didn't think so either and they dared him to beat them deep with continual blitzes.
Gotta Dream Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 It seems like a long time ago, but I remember JP playing terrific in the preseason. I think if it were a competition, he would have won the job outright. Something happened between preseason and regular season though. Almost like he was TOO afraid to do anything! I remember last years preseason as well. Granted it was against 2nd stringers, but he once went 7 of 7 or 8 of 8 in one game. He just needs his confidence back. Confidence that if he throws an INT, he will not get yanked. Confidence that if he throws an INT, his teamates will stick with him. Something got into his head last year. Maybe it was TD's meddling. Hopefully with the wise King Solomon (MV) here, is psyche will be boosted up.
Frez Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 Todd Collins is a UFA (KC) and I'm sure Marv Levy will be bringing him home to Buffalo!
Mikie2times Posted January 9, 2006 Author Posted January 9, 2006 sure couldn't gp downfield against the Steelers they didn't think so either and they dared him to beat them deep with continual blitzes. 559419[/snapback] He's not Dan Marino, but don't assess his arm strength from this one game. Pittsburgh blitzes everybody like that, that's why they call it blitzburgh, and it’s not exactly like he was put into an easy situation today. He entered off the bench in the playoffs, which means he had very little (if any) work with the first string, against a very good aggressive defense. Kitna had a monster year when he started in 03, and unlike Holcomb it wasn't a statistical mirage. He nearly made the pro bowl that year, and went downfield often. Chad Johnson amassed nearly 1,400 yards in 03, and his average per catch was among the best in the AFC. Peter Warrick also experienced his finest year as a pro, averaging over 10 yards per catch, with 819 yards and 7 TD's. Kitna is a player and would be huge upgrade over what we have right now at QB.
jahnyc Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 I think you have really hit on one of the most important (if not the most important) situation facing the Bills during this offseason: how do we know if JP can be the guy next year (and after)? Clearly, there will be little patience with JP; if he starts he will need to perform. I think the Bills should bring in a veteran QB other that KH and let JP and the veteran compete for the starting job. The team needs to win now.
Kultarr Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 Todd Collins is a UFA (KC) and I'm sure Marv Levy will be bringing him home to Buffalo! 559430[/snapback] Scary stuff. Old Todd's been around 11 years now. And has averaged less than 1.5 starts a year. And that due to the '97 season that got Marv thrown out of Buffalo... <sigh> Well, at least that gave us the Flutie vs. Johnson civil war.
Mikie2times Posted January 9, 2006 Author Posted January 9, 2006 It seems like a long time ago, but I remember JP playing terrific in the preseason. I think if it were a competition, he would have won the job outright. Something happened between preseason and regular season though. Almost like he was TOO afraid to do anything! I remember last years preseason as well. Granted it was against 2nd stringers, but he once went 7 of 7 or 8 of 8 in one game. He just needs his confidence back. Confidence that if he throws an INT, he will not get yanked. Confidence that if he throws an INT, his teamates will stick with him. Something got into his head last year. Maybe it was TD's meddling. Hopefully with the wise King Solomon (MV) here, is psyche will be boosted up. 559425[/snapback] The very first preseason game against Denver he played well, but outside of that he was bad. The 05 preseason left many people hitting the panic button with JP before the season even started. If it was an open QB competition with Kelly this year he would have lost, which is what I believe was part of the problem all together. JP was anointed starter after proving nothing, and it happened after the cutting of Drew Bledsoe, a player that might have still had the support of many teammates. Then Kelly is brought in, and isn't it likely a veteran with that many starts under his belt would outplay JP at least a little, if not a lot? That's what happened, and with Drew lighting it up in Dallas I suspect many of the Veterans began questioning the coaching and management. Then JP started really stinking it up, and players started to voice their opinions more frequently, and more publicly. With the added expectations management created Mularkey finally caved in and started Holcomb, and that's when I feel the mistake was made.
JoeF Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 Mike--gauging this season--I think we need to bring in Sage Rosenfels...
BuffaloRebound Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 If there is someone out there better than Holcomb, I'm all for bringing them in. This was Losman's free year to wet his pants. From now on, he only plays if he's better than his competition. The Bills don't have that much money invested in him and Levy has no ties to him. Losman better show some big improvement or he will not play much next year.
East Brady Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 The very first preseason game against Denver he played well, but outside of that he was bad. The 05 preseason left many people hitting the panic button with JP before the season even started. If it was an open QB competition with Kelly this year he would have lost, which is what I believe was part of the problem all together. JP was anointed starter after proving nothing, and it happened after the cutting of Drew Bledsoe, a player that might have still had the support of many teammates. Then Kelly is brought in, and isn't it likely a veteran with that many starts under his belt would outplay JP at least a little, if not a lot? That's what happened, and with Drew lighting it up in Dallas I suspect many of the Veterans began questioning the coaching and management. Then JP started really stinking it up, and players started to voice their opinions more frequently, and more publicly. With the added expectations management created Mularkey finally caved in and started Holcomb, and that's when I feel the mistake was made. 559454[/snapback] Sad part is those same veterans all forgot how Drew really plays in the later part of the season. Wasn't to impressive IMO.
JAMIEBUF12 Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 What I'm pretty sure about right now is Kelly Holcomb is a good back up, and nothing more and JP Losman hasn't been on the field long enough for us to get an accurate long term read. The question becomes at what price should the Bills be willing to pay to get JP the experience he needs for us to make a long term decision? We were supposed to come out of this season with those answers, and if we couldn't do it this year what makes people believe we can do it next year? Buffalo made it clear Kelly Holcomb gave them the best chance to win this year; effectively sucking the team’s confidence in JP Losman right threw the drain. Are we supposed to expect Mularkey to handle the team much differently next season? What happens when Kelly outplays JP in camp, or the preseason, and many of the same players from this year wonder why Mularkey isn't starting the best QB? Even if Mularkey holds firm which is what he did not do in 2005, does he have enough respect from the players for them to back his decision? The problem is not in Kelly and JP's relationship, but in Kelly and JP's play together. Kelly is not a very good QB, but he still will be good enough to beat out JP Losman in camp next year. That would be typical of an average veteran as compared to an inexperienced but talented QB, and as we saw in 2005 was certainly the case with JP and Kelly. But much like 2005 if Kelly is outplaying JP in 2006 I just don't think Mularkey will be able to get the players to back the move to go with JP, not after what happened this year, and that will leave us with many of the same problems we had in 2005 in 2006. In order to fix the situation I would like to see the Bills release Kelly Holcomb, and focus on landing a better QB in Jon Kitna. We can then offer the job to JP Losman if and when he is able to beat out Kitna. Kitna brings many of the same veteran qualities Kelly has, but he protects the ball better, and can go down field. At least this way we won't have to settle for a mediocre QB play from Holcomb, or let a player with 8 career starts hijack the franchise. In hindsight I'm sure Mularkey and Co. wish they handled the situation differently, but they created the monster and must fix it for next season. 559404[/snapback] i think after carson tore up that acl today the bengals may want to keep kitna around.they may need him for the early part of next season
colin Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 i'll go with losman because no one we sign will be much better and have the same upside. we ditched drew cuz he was a 9-7 QB (i think that sums up drew pretty nicely), no point to bring in another one, just roll with JP. i think he can at least be as good as what eli did this year.
jarthur31 Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 I petition the original poster to rename this thread to: "What we need to do at O-line, For next Season". JP is not the problem here and has never been. He's just a rookie learning the pro game. There should be 5 guys up front who should make it easier for him to do so but they're just not cooperating at the mo.
beerme1 Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 Mike--gauging this season--I think we need to bring in Sage Rosenfels... 559468[/snapback] Wow! If he is available yes, we should trade up to get him I obviuosly know you are joking and would bet that you fall into the bring back Todd Collins camp.
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 I petition the original poster to rename this thread to: "What we need to do at O-line, For next Season". JP is not the problem here and has never been. He's just a rookie learning the pro game. There should be 5 guys up front who should make it easier for him to do so but they're just not cooperating at the mo. 559633[/snapback] Agreed, the main thing we need to do regarding the QB position is not to repeat the same mistake we have made at QB since Kelly retired of focusing so much in eime and cao resiueces on the job thst we have routinely not focused on the things that really produce a good W/L. The list of dumb overblown moves made by the Bills since they failed to recognize Kelly would not last forever and devoted to much belief in the fantasy he would play forever, and since we have made a series of errors to overcompensate which have wrecked this team. Namely, 1. The first mistake was not drafting a late round replacement to be trained for Kelly's ultimate demise in 1994. Even if it was unlikely that a late pick in 94 or 93 could be our QB starter, this approach would have been far superior to over-reaching with a 2nd round choice for TC in '95 when the handwring was on the wall for Kelly's demise (though Ralph did not understand this as he made a handshake pledge he then had to renege on to compensate JK in his next contract. 2. The second mistake was wasting a 3rd round choice to get Billy Joe Idiot when they realized that TC likely was not the man unless they trained him out of his happy feet and Kelly's demise forced them not to be able to even do that. 3. Thanks to AJ Smith the Bills made a smart assessment that Flutie could play NFL ball, but they then panicked and Butler promised DF a fair shot, but then did not give him one by spending an arm and a leg on RJ. Butler's football stupidty and panicked reached heights which killed the Bills from that day on because he foolishly endorsed giving RJ a guaranteed big contract when at the very least he was somewhat suspect on the injury front. Even worse, he then created a recipe for doom if AJ proved to be right in his DF assessment by giving DF a contract (apparently much to the surprise of DF and his agent) which rolled his achieved bonuses into his base pay. It was this formulation which when RJ did prove to be injury prone and DF played as well as Smith judged that gave the Bills a $10 million cap hit for QB in 1999 unless they lowered the DF cap hit by giving him a long-term deal. 4. Cutting DF and keeping RJ was not a mistake as it was clear DF had a short shelf life (though you gotta give the midget some props for the dropkick last week) but this simply demonstrates how badly we managed the QB situation by over-focus leading to panic. 5. Likewise, getting Bledsoe strikes me as a reasonable move initially as AVP was clearly no starter and Jeff Blake or Chris Chandler seemed to be the best stupid options for us. IMHO, acqusition of Bledsoe would have been a wash after he had an outstanding 2002 which was followed by a horrendous 2003. The Bills mistake was not quitting while they were even and cutting Bledsoe but instead TD tried to show his cojones first by extending him and then by cutting him. Neither moved worked out at all for the Bills. 5.5. The jury is still out on the Losman draft choice and given how poor the 2005 QB draft class was picking up JP in 04 and training him to be the QB of the future will be a very smart move (compared to the real alternatives) if it work. However, one must not that again the over-focus and panic with which TD invested in JP being a quality starter in his second year was foolish. The best thing the Bills can do is try to land a Tom Brady (incredibly really incredibly doubtful but this is what you try) with a 5th or 7th rounder and ride JP or Holcomb for what they are worth. Spenidng our FA cap money and 1st day choices on the OL and building the rest of the team are far better strategies than further umjustified focus on QB.
Mikie2times Posted January 9, 2006 Author Posted January 9, 2006 I petition the original poster to rename this thread to: "What we need to do at O-line, For next Season". JP is not the problem here and has never been. He's just a rookie learning the pro game. There should be 5 guys up front who should make it easier for him to do so but they're just not cooperating at the mo. 559633[/snapback] Who said JP was the problem? I think he's playing like a normal QB that has had 8 starts. The point of this thread is how is how will Mularkey implement him after the nightmare he created this year? All year he's been stating with his actions that Kelly is the better QB to win, and it seems the players not only backed that move, but in some cases persuaded MM to do it. Now JP must win the job outright to win over the support of his teammates, and I'm not sure he has the experience do that yet. If he doesn't win it outright, or he wins a tilted competition then how will next year be any different they this year? Will Mularkey somehow be able to convince his players to back Losman when he couldn't this season? I just don't have the faith that he can do that, especially not when 70,000 plus are screaming for his head each Sunday.
Spiderweb Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 i think after carson tore up that acl today the bengals may want to keep kitna around.they may need him for the early part of next season 559549[/snapback] Especially since he may not be ready physically to play early next year. It all depends of the severity of the kneee injury, but it's likely he won't be ready at the start anyway.
Tux of Borg Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 How about we stop giving refuge to other team's castoffs.
Mikie2times Posted January 9, 2006 Author Posted January 9, 2006 Looking at some of these responses I think I could have been a little more clear in my original post. While I do suggest we look to Jon Kitna, that doesn't mean I want to give up on Losman, in fact I feel the complete opposite. If JP stood a great chance at not only starting next year, but staying in even if things aren't going well then that's what I would like to do. That said it's my contention that a series of decisions by management and coaching this year made that happening unlikely, and if it did happen I'm convinced JP won't have the support of the team in the process. When Buffalo released Drew Bledsoe some of the veteran players might have disagreed with the move. I never disagreed with JP being the starter this season, but I feel like the first mistake Buffalo made was immediately naming him the starter following Drew's release. Some of the players might not have been complelty on board at that point, and it was critical for JP to WIN the job and win them over. Instead he got handed the job without the roster even being set, and when Holcomb was added some players probably wondered why JP was more qualified then Kelly was. Still the Bills named JP their guy, and appeared set on doing the right thing. We started off rocky, and Mularkey only complicated things more by giving Holcomb more action. In the meantime in big D, the guy that was supposed to be worse then JP was lighting it up. Soon players began to openly call for Holcomb, and coaches and management decided to take on the logic that a playoff contender should start the player that gives them the best chance to win. They called it a spark but essentially that’s what they sold. The problem I have with this is the Bills took the position that they were a playoff contender in August, when Kelly was clearly outplaying JP. At that point had the coaches felt we were contenders, which they obviously did, and that Kelly was outplaying JP, why would JP start? Why would the players feel like that is in their best interests? When it became clear this team had glaring holes it was time for the Bills to be strong and stick with JP, not panic a bench him. We were getting killed in the run game, and the offensive line was getting blown up. I'm all for winning, but even with Kelly's improved play this was clearly a 6-10 type season, and a perfect year to get your young QB some experience. Now every last shred of confidence this team had in Losman is gone, and Mularkey has also given them the impression that they can influence who is the starting QB.
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