Mile High Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 I take it you missed the New England game? Eli Manning vs. Carolina: 10 of 18 (56%) for 133 yards, 3 INT, 35.0 Rating, 4 sacks for 22 yards Losman @ New England 10 of 27!!!! (37%!!!!) for 181 yards, 3 INT, 33.6 Rating, 2 sacks for 12 yards And lest you accuse me of cherry-picking, Losman threw for a lower completion percentage than Manning did on Sunday on five occasions; for fewer passing yards on three occasions; for a lower passer rating on three occasions; has been sacked more than 4 times on two occasions; and was sacked for more yards on five occasions! Few people are ready to give up on Losman - but the very, very, very, scary truth is that as bad as Eli Manning was on Sunday, Losman has been worse. JDG 559910[/snapback] Their gameplan (Giants) is at least designed right for Manning to have a chance to win. 18 attempts. That's how you give the kid a chance to win, not let hoim throw the ball almost 30 times a game with about 15 rushes. Losman has never played in New England, that was Holcomb.
GG Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 I take it you missed the New England game? Eli Manning vs. Carolina: 10 of 18 (56%) for 133 yards, 3 INT, 35.0 Rating, 4 sacks for 22 yards Losman @ New England 10 of 27!!!! (37%!!!!) for 181 yards, 3 INT, 33.6 Rating, 2 sacks for 12 yards And lest you accuse me of cherry-picking, Losman threw for a lower completion percentage than Manning did on Sunday on five occasions; for fewer passing yards on three occasions; for a lower passer rating on three occasions; has been sacked more than 4 times on two occasions; and was sacked for more yards on five occasions! Few people are ready to give up on Losman - but the very, very, very, scary truth is that as bad as Eli Manning was on Sunday, Losman has been worse. JDG 559910[/snapback] No need to cherry pick, but if you had seen as many Bills & Giants games side by side as I have, you wouldn't see much difference in the QB play of these 2 kids.
dave mcbride Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 No need to cherry pick, but if you had seen as many Bills & Giants games side by side as I have, you wouldn't see much difference in the QB play of these 2 kids. 559923[/snapback] one thing i will point out in manning's defense is that on a number of occasions, he has played exceptionally well coming from behind in the fourth quarter. losman has yet to do this. let's hope that he aquires this absolutely necessary skill next season.
JDG Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 Losman has never played in New England, that was Holcomb. 559915[/snapback] Sorry, that was a typo. It was *vs.* New England. And it was bad - at least as bad as Eli Manning on Sunday, if not worse. JDG
The Dean Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 Still can't believe the Giants wanted him as HC.... 559036[/snapback] And now his playoff record is 4-5 (I believe). He's still a major jerk, IMO...and I doubt he'll ever be a big-time winning coach. I see him as a Marty Schottenheimer with the personality of a lumpy fart. He can (like Marty and Chuck Knox) put together a professional team and lead a team to a winning record. But, i don't see him getting the team over the top.
SDS Posted January 9, 2006 Author Posted January 9, 2006 He can (like Marty and Chuck Knox) put together a professional team and lead a team to a winning record. But, i don't see him getting the team over the top. 559970[/snapback] Some people are in the HoF with those exact credentials!
The Dean Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 Some people are in the HoF with those exact credentials! 560065[/snapback] To be sure. BUT, if you're making an insinuation about the great Marv Levy (which you may not be, i understand) you will take note that ML's playoff record was a very healthy 11=8 and included 4 AFC Championships. Plus he did this without being a flaming asswipe. My point is I don't like Coughlin and I don't think Super Bowl appearances are in TC's future. Actually, I won't be surprised if the Giants regress next year and/or the year after. Of course, that's just my opinion.
SDS Posted January 9, 2006 Author Posted January 9, 2006 Plus he did this without being a flaming asswipe. 560078[/snapback] I guess Tom won't be receiving a Christmas card from you?
The Dean Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 I guess Tom won't be receiving a Christmas card from you? 560087[/snapback] "Holiday" card.
stuckincincy Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 I don't think it was a matter of giving up on the run too early. They just couldn't move the ball to pick up first downs to have that many plays. Sure Barber only had 13 rushes but Manning only had 18 throws (Foster almost had as many carries as the Giants ran offensive plays). While that's not exactly ballance it's not tipped that far for a team that was behind most of the day. 559882[/snapback] NYG were correct IMO for not abandoning the run - even though it didn't produce much results. I personally thought the refs boned them. I don't think there is a fan in any NFL city that doesn't throw up their hands once the fabled OC's decide that since they are behind 7 or 10 points, nothing but passing will save the day...idiots. I think that many if not most OC's (and DC's) are egomaniacal mirror-kissers.
Orton's Arm Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 No need to cherry pick, but if you had seen as many Bills & Giants games side by side as I have, you wouldn't see much difference in the QB play of these 2 kids. 559923[/snapback] Sorry to rain on your parade, but Eli Manning's rating for 2005 is 75.9, while Losman's is just 64.9.
The Dean Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 Sorry to rain on your parade, but Eli Manning's rating for 2005 is 75.9, while Losman's is just 64.9. 560117[/snapback] ...and that's really not that big of a difference in the grand scheme of QB ratings. But, GG's too intelligent to equate QB rating with performance. He actually WATCHES the games (it's so much more time consuming, I know.) BTW, I think both of these guys have what it takes to be outstanding NFL QBs. I seriously doubt any of the top QBs picked in 2005 or in this coming draft will be as good as JP or Eli.
Sound_n_Fury Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 Sorry to rain on your parade, but Eli Manning's rating for 2005 is 75.9, while Losman's is just 64.9. 560117[/snapback] I wonder how JP would have fared this year with the Gints running game? Coughlin had to know that Fox was going to take away the running game and make Eli beat them (after all, he's a Tuna deciple)...and yet he had no response. Not too impressive, IMO.
JDG Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 ...and that's really not that big of a difference in the grand scheme of QB ratings. But, GG's too intelligent to equate QB rating with performance. He actually WATCHES the games (it's so much more time consuming, I know.) BTW, I think both of these guys have what it takes to be outstanding NFL QBs. I seriously doubt any of the top QBs picked in 2005 or in this coming draft will be as good as JP or Eli. 560121[/snapback] I'm not a huge fan of the QB Rating system, but 10 points *is* a significant difference. The scale effectively runs from about 60 to 110 for starting NFL QB's. In stats going back to 2001, only the most miserable full-time starting NFL QB's have even managed a 59 rating, with Kordell Stewart in Chicago being the one notable exception at a 56 rating. On the other end, its rare for a full-time QB to top a 110 rating. You occasionally see a 111, and given that the rating overweights TD passes over rushing TD's, Peyton Manning managed a near-unheard-of 120 last year. But for all intents in purposes, starting NFL QB's fall between 60 and 110, and so the difference between 65 and 76 represents fully 20% of the variance in the QB rating measure. Moreover, the truth is that Eli Manning, controlling for differences in games played, managed to have better stats than Losman in almost every single way this year - all while playing abysmally. Name your measure: completion percentage, yards per attempt, interceptions between attempt, sacks per game, etc. - and Eli Manning looks better by a not-insignificant margin. (The closest you get to a tie is completion percentage, but Losman's just barely sub-50% is so terribly bad, I still give the nod to Manning's anemic 53%.) About the best you can say for Losman is that he outrushed Manning - and even that is mostly offset by the yards Losman lost in sacks. So, while GG has probably watched more Manning games than I have (and given my travels during the early part of the season, he's probably watched more Losman games than I have too), I have to disagree with him putting Losman on par with Manning *right now.* Besides the obvious factor of them both being 1st Round QB's from the same draft class, I think there's a number of possible reasons for Bills fans to try to equate Losman and Manning, and to otherwise defend Losman: 1) Manning has been so bad so far, it really is hard to conceive and accept the idea of another full-time QB being measurably even worse. 2) Unlike Manning, in the games I have seen, Losman seems to rarely make the really truly bad decision. Losman also seems to make a number of really good plays. Its my general sense, though, that it is the sheer number of plays that Losman *doesn't make*, which make up that sub-.500 completion percentage that have really made him so bad... and "not making plays" is a hard thing to detect - in comparison to the self-evidently bad plays that we seem to see from Manning. 3) I think that the thought of having traded a #1 pick for Bledsoe and getting so little in return, followed by trading so much for Losman and getting even less in return is almost too much to bear. We're all trained to accept the idea that players drafted in the 1st Round are future stars - or at least solid players. And yet, sometimes things just don't work out. Look, I'm not going to say that Losman will never be a good QB for us. Nevertheless, I think we all need to accept that Losman's game-performance so far ranks among the very, very, worst QB's in the NFL; that Losman has not yet even had a single game that could be statistically described as "good", despite nine starts; and that he does not even compare favorably, let alone "at par" to, many other very young QB's early in their career -even some of the bad ones, like Eli Manning. JDG
NYGPopgun10 Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 I don't think it was a matter of giving up on the run too early. They just couldn't move the ball to pick up first downs to have that many plays. Sure Barber only had 13 rushes but Manning only had 18 throws (Foster almost had as many carries as the Giants ran offensive plays). While that's not exactly ballance it's not tipped that far for a team that was behind most of the day. 559882[/snapback] Well, they only had the ball for 17 and change. That's pathetic. The fumbled punt return off Wilson before the half was crucial because at the very least, they could have went into the locker room down a TD for as poorly as they played. What's alarming is Coughlin and his staff made ZERO adjustments. That is unacceptable. Also, pinning this game on Eli is ridiculous. The defense put them in a hole and our OC tossed in the towel and panicked. They did the same sh-- two weeks ago at Washington. P.S. Burress dogged it on his routes the whole 2nd half.
Mark VI Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 And now his playoff record is 4-5 (I believe). He's still a major jerk, IMO...and I doubt he'll ever be a big-time winning coach. I see him as a Marty Schottenheimer with the personality of a lumpy fart. He can (like Marty and Chuck Knox) put together a professional team and lead a team to a winning record. But, i don't see him getting the team over the top. 559970[/snapback] You can soon throw Bill Cowher in that group. An excellent coach in the regular season who almost always gets them there. In their last 8 playoff years, they are 8-0 in their first playoff game, 1-7 in the 2nd game. He's been to 1 SB but I don't know if they'll ever be back under Cowher. I've lost count how many times they've been favored and lost in the post season. That works in College but rarely in the Pros do fans say " Horray, we're #6 ! " and are satisfied with that, year in and year out.
Sound_n_Fury Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 You can soon throw Bill Cowher in that group. An excellent coach in the regular season who almost always gets them there. In their last 8 playoff years, they are 8-0 in their first playoff game, 1-7 in the 2nd game. He's been to 1 SB but I don't know if they'll ever be back under Cowher. I've lost count how many times they've been favored and lost in the post season. That works in College but rarely in the Pros do fans say " Horray, we're #6 ! " and are satisfied with that, year in and year out. 560344[/snapback] That was Cowher's first road playoff victory, as well.
Kultarr Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 Hmm. I seem to recall that "Coughlin" when translated from the ancient Irish means roughly "the skin and lard upon which the juggler sits himself to eat mutton by the fire." So yeah, basically an assclown.
GG Posted January 9, 2006 Posted January 9, 2006 So, while GG has probably watched more Manning games than I have (and given my travels during the early part of the season, he's probably watched more Losman games than I have too), I have to disagree with him putting Losman on par with Manning *right now.* 560193[/snapback] I guess I need to have my eyes checked out as people are doing a better job describing what I see. For starters, I never said anything remotely approaching Losman's stats being better than Eli's. But I have been pouring water on Eli's parade all year long, because he has been underwhelming. If you don't think that Eli has been making bad decisions, you must not have seen the two Cowboys games. The major difference between the two was that when Eli threw up a stupid pass, for some reason, Plaxico usually came down with it. Losman never got that kind of play from his lead WR early in the season to establish the tempo. Do you find it a coincidence that when Plaxico & Shockey pulled a disappearing act in Sunday's game, Eli looked very pedestrian? I see the two of them playing at a very similar level at this point, even if you account for Manning's pedigree and better college experience. It's just that one guy got a lot more help from his teammates.
JDG Posted January 10, 2006 Posted January 10, 2006 You can soon throw Bill Cowher in that group. An excellent coach in the regular season who almost always gets them there. In their last 8 playoff years, they are 8-0 in their first playoff game, 1-7 in the 2nd game. He's been to 1 SB but I don't know if they'll ever be back under Cowher. I've lost count how many times they've been favored and lost in the post season. That works in College but rarely in the Pros do fans say " Horray, we're #6 ! " and are satisfied with that, year in and year out. 560344[/snapback] Yeah, it must all be Cowher's fault. That's the ticket. JDG
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