What the critic's don't get

[PromoTheRobot]

One of the things TD accomplished was a brilliant job of filling the stadium.  That's extemely impressive considering the product on the field.  I also agree that we're not as far away as people around here feel.  I doubt Spikes will ever be the same player, and think LB's are a little thin.  The lines still need improvement, but going back to a 3-4 might help the D-line.  I digress.

 

When the flap with the signs blew up, I think TD lost that ability to fill those stands because of the backlash.  That's where he probably lost his job.  After 5 non-playoff years and the sign stuff, the fans lost confidence in Tom Donahoe.  Ralph wants those seats filled, and TD is no longer trusted around here.  He had to go.  Levy will keep the seats filled till a better GM comes along, and the seats will be filled next year.

557965[/snapback]

I buy my seasons because I want the Bills to stay in Buffalo. There is nothing that TD did to convince me.

 

PTR

[Rico]

I didn't mean the most historically succesful personell guy the Bills have ever had, I meant the most historically succesful guy currently in the Bills front office.

557966[/snapback]

Oh..well, that goes without saying then.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree about MM for now. Hopefully, this coming season will prove you right & me wrong.

[OGTEleven]

I'm not keen on using absolutes to judge a job with so many variables involved.

 

Sooner or later, you have to use absolutes.

 

On defense he brought in Sam Adams, and spent Day1 picks on 6 other DLinemen. That is definitley a concerted effort to build a strong DLine.

 

On offense he spent Day1 picks on MWilliams, JJennings and Kevin Everett and still gave FA contracts to starters like Vilarial, Teague, Anderson and Gandy while even trading for MCampbell. Again that is a very credible effort to address the OLine.

 

On defense, maybe I can give him a pass to a degree. Adams was a good move at a great price. His drafts have been pretty marginal but his options weren't always there. His handling of Schoebel has been terrific. Kelsay, Denney, Edwards...not so much. He knew when he let Pat go our season was at risk. granted the price to keep him was high.

 

 

Lookng at the lines, the Bills have yougn talent like Peters, Kelsay Anderson, Williams, Everett and Preston to build around. And they have a couple solid veterans like Adams, Gandy, Campbell, Schobel to work with as well.

 

I'm not really with you on the O-Line. His drafts have been quantity, not quality. Over five years he has not drafted one true OL stud. Williams fooled the whole league...not TD's fault, but still no stud.

 

 

As for the team and franchise attitude, the only way we have to get an accurate read on that is through a self-interested media which thrives on the controversy they create. As a result I don't put any stock in them and the only interior problem I would ahve worried about in the offseason was Moulds and his massive contract. Dump JGray and put a 2gapper next TheKeg and he'll be happy as a pig in shlt. The Bills have good character guys like Spikes, Fletcher, Evans, Milloy and Holcombe to keep the ship steady and I think the team has a healthy respect for Mularkey as well.

 

Here's where I disagree strongly. It is far from just the press that gives evidence of a less than harmonious enterprise. I have heard negative stories about TD from the press, Ralph (by inference...."we need to be united"), Marv, the combine, former front office employees, former players, agents, and fans. Individually they are easily dismissed, not collectively. Additionally, the team had two of its top five or 6 players walk away from the team. That ain't good.

 

 

P.S. I know I've been on a rampage the last couple days, so thank you for dealing with me w/o implying I'm a complete raving lunatic and an idiot to boot.

Nigel Tufnel would be proud. 

 

 

I thought we were all raving lunatic idiots.

[KnightRider]

I buy my seasons because I want the Bills to stay in Buffalo.  There is nothing that TD did to convince me.

 

PTR

557969[/snapback]

 

You sir, commute a very long distance then for those 8 Sundays. NH, right? (I'm just north of Marlboro near 290&495) While I respect and appreciate that, you also do not even slightly have the mindset of the typical ticket buyer. Look at the early Sabres games when expectations were low, there was 12000. Now they are selling out.

 

What TD has been able to do for every year except the first is convince people this team was loaded. He is a master marketer. Butler and Polian never did much, other than putting a strong team on the field, to get people to buy tickets. SJF training camp rather than Fredonia generates a lot of Bills interest east of Rochester.

[Dan III]

Aw hell, there goes the 'hood. 

557933[/snapback]

I guess I'm #4.. How many more do we need before we officially become a "gang"??

[Fan in San Diego]

Simply because I don't see any better options available. Change for the sake of change accomplished nothing more than change and I don't think the Bills have gotten better in the front office, more than likely they have taken a step backwards.

I'm not keen on using absolutes to judge a job with so many variables involved. Personally I think what would have happened is that Donahoe would have used a large percentage of his draftpicks and capspace to address the interior of both the offensive and defensive lines. I also think he (along w/ Ralph) would have pressed Mularkey to let Clement and Gray go. These two strategies combined may very well have led to the kind of upgrades that would have had Bills contending for the AFCEast title next year. If instead they suffered through yet another year like this one, then I would have said it was time to move on.

I see this said/written so often and I just think that it is so inaccurate. There was not failure to address the line(s).

On defense he brought in Sam Adams, and spent Day1 picks on 6 other DLinemen. That is definitley a concerted effort to build a strong DLine.

On offense he spent Day1 picks on MWilliams, JJennings and Kevin Everett and still gave FA contracts to starters like Vilarial, Teague, Anderson and Gandy while even trading for MCampbell. Again that is a very credible effort to address the OLine.

Now not all of these efforts worked out. Some guys like Kelsay, TAnderson, Everett and Preston are still young and improving. Other guys like Teague, Jennings, Vilarial and now MWilliams have been dealing with injury issues. The only call I thought he really blew was the Bennie Anderson signing.

Lookng at the lines, the Bills have yougn talent like Peters, Kelsay, Anderson, Williams, Everett and Preston to build around. And they have a couple solid veterans like Adams, Gandy, Campbell, Schobel to work with as well. They're really not all that far away from being good in the trenches and with their capspace and draftposition, they have a lot of options to get better fast.

As for the team and franchise attitude, the only way we have to get an accurate read on that is through a self-interested media which thrives on the controversy they create. As a result I don't put any stock in them and the only interior problem I would ahve worried about in the offseason was Moulds and his massive contract. Dump JGray and put a 2gapper next TheKeg and he'll be happy as a pig in shlt. The Bills have good character guys like Spikes, Fletcher, Evans, Milloy and Holcombe to keep the ship steady and I think the team has a healthy respect for Mularkey as well.

 

As ugly and bizarre as this year was, I think the Bills are/were a lot closer than most anybody was giving them credit for. Getting some starters healthy and having a solid offseason in FA and the draft could have put them right back in the hunt, in good cap shape and with a good nucleus of young talent.

Instead we just dumped our most historically succesful personell guy and replaced him with an inexperienced favorite uncle whose greatest, and possibly only real asset is his popularity. And while popularity might temporarily quiet down the most vocal part of a frustrated and whiny fanbase, it doesn't win football games.

Cya

 

P.S. I know I've been on a rampage the last couple days, so thank you for dealing with me w/o implying I'm a complete raving lunatic and an idiot to boot.

Nigel Tufnel would be proud. 

557921[/snapback]

 

I agree that TD did try to fix the lines. But he was fired for trying to fix the lines with inferior talent. He is and was a bad talent evaluator. Every squirrel finds a nut now and then. We need squirrels (GM's) that find nuts (Good players) more than they come up short.

[RunTheBall]

I think the sign issue was the last straw for Ralph because he apologized for it in the press conference so it was obviously eating at him. Ralph can handle a less-than-stellar product on the field if there are circumstances that warrant some slack (injuries, bad breaks, draft picks that don't pan out, etc.) because he understands the game. What Ralph doesn't like is a team that quits (and this team quit a few times) and a poor perception of his franchise. Both of these things happened under TDs watch, and given the 5 year playoff drought, it was a no-brainer to turn things around.

 

I think its absoutely farking MARVelous that Levy is back in the fold. The fact that Marv thinks MM has what it takes is comforting. He could have had MM canned in a heart beat but he thinks MM can turn it around. I liked MM the first year, hated him last year, hopefully with some wisdom and some good co-ordinators he can take it to another level.

 

Great PR move by Ralph. The guy just wants to feel good about his team before he heads to the great president's box in the sky. Is it a great football move? I dunno. But I feel good about this team for the first time in a loooooong time and its the optimism for the future that TD destroyed.

 

RTB

[KOKBILLS]

Having visited Buffalo the last few days, I got to hear and read the reaction to Marv Levy.  Sadly, our two most prominent media outlets (GR and The News) chose to spin what transpired toward the negative.

 

Jerry Sullivan was his usually sarcastic but charming self.  Schopp and the Bulldog were climbing over each other to see who could be more appalled.  Even the affable Bob Matthews had misgivings.

 

What everyone seems to miss is that Levy is the last guy in the organization, besides Wilson, to have worked with the Bills when they were an elite team.  He knows what parts go into making a team like that.

 

Levy also comes from a time, a time that predates most of us, our parents and grandparents time, when charecter was valued.  All the great teams had character from top to bottom?  Name one NFL team that had a bunch of showboaters that ever won it all?

 

Levy will have one job in evaluating talent: He will look for character players.  Modrak and Guy will find them, chart them, and video them.  Levy will tell them which ones have the fire.

 

Wilson?  He just wants to be told what his team is doing.  Something that Donahoe, incredibly, never did.  No owner should find out stuff about his team in the papers.  Levy speaks Wilson's language.

 

Mullarkey will be under the heat lamp in 2006, but I honestly don't think he would still be here is Levy didn't think he had some potential.  Enough to put his rep on the line for him.  Mullarkey would have to completely crash-and-burn for Levy to give him the hook mid-season.

 

So count me among the optimistic.  Maybe the Sabres have a lesson for us.  How many thought Lindy Ruff and Darcy Regier should been fired ages ago?  Who looks smart now?

 

PTR

557802[/snapback]

 

I think the most important aspect of Marv's return in the GM capacity has been widely missed by most...And that aspect is that Marv, being the smart Man he is (and I doubt there is much debate on Levy's smarts), will likely lean heavily on one of his Best friends in life for advise and information...That good friend happens to be one of the most successful GM's in the NFL...Believe me, Marv will have a hotline set up with Polian on the other end...This should serve Levy extreemly well when it comes to bringing his skills and organization up to date...Now, I realize Polian is not going to give Marv much of Indy's Scouting secrets, etc...But what Polian will give Levy is a Blueprint to follow on how to be an NFL GM in the year 2006...That is an invaluable Contact if you ask me, and the thing is Polian considers Marv to be HIS Mentor...I have a feeling that will help...

[Spiderweb]

It's pretty obvious now that Donahoe was a "Captain Queeg."  Probably even walked around the office, ballbearings in hand, wanting to know who took the strawberries.

 

(Now THAT'S a reference you'd have to be closer to Marv's age to get!)

 

One Bills Drive was a bad work environment under TD.  He had to go.

 

PTR

557904[/snapback]

 

....or to have watched Turner Classics when the movie was shown.......

[Kelly the Dog]

I don't know where this Marv thinks MM can do the job comes from. Marv said himself that he barely knows MM, talked to him a few times on the phone and during pre-game pre-season interviews, hasn't watch the tapes of the Bills games or looked into the team in any detail, and has just been little more than a casual observer the last few years.

[dave mcbride]

....or to have watched Turner Classics when the movie was shown.......

558169[/snapback]

that captain queeg reference is too funny!

[PromoTheRobot]

I don't know where this Marv thinks MM can do the job comes from. Marv said himself that he barely knows MM, talked to him a few times on the phone and during pre-game pre-season interviews, hasn't watch the tapes of the Bills games or looked into the team in any detail, and has just been little more than a casual observer the last few years.

558176[/snapback]

You have a point there, but looking for hard facts in a press conference is tough. I'm sure there are things that Marv is not going to share with the public. He wants MM to look standing on his own feet, even if in reality Levy is holding his hand.

 

PTR

[seq004]

I pretty much agree with everything you say here except for the "most historically succesful personell guy" part and the MM references (IMO he's a disaster). Other than his horrible choices for HC, I think almost all of TD's moves looked great on paper, just had terrible luck. I'd much rather see him still here & MM gone than what we're looking at right now.

557940[/snapback]

Another great thread ...I'll admitt I wanted MM fired and out the door but if Ralph fired MM and not TD the stadium would be half full opening day. I don't care what anybody says TD didn't do his job well and this change WAS necessary to make just for the sake of change. I have faith that Marv will do a better job than TD and that is the feeling across the league right now. If you look at TD's record then common sense would tell you a number of people including Marv will produce better results. None of us know for sure but one thing is for sure keeping TD would have been a disaster for the team, fans, and everyone involved. If someone can't see that then I don't know what their looking at. You think Detroit fans are rioting it would be worse in Buffalo.

[Adam]

Sooner or later, you have to use absolutes.

557993[/snapback]

""Only Sith deal in absolutes"

[colin]

solid thread right here

 

i disagree with notion of the good old days and character.

 

previous NFL teams might not have had as many single players acting silly and getting so much attention (like TO etc.) but they had TONS of dirty players who intentionaly made dirty play after dirty play trying to hurt people (rominowski types) and back when integration was new there was some not exactly racially sensitive stuff in a large number of teams.

 

anyhow, i think you CAN make a dig at TD about our lines.

 

while he did put picks and FA money into both lines, he also put picks and cash into QB, WR, and RB. when he felt he could upgrade those positions, he put more picks into them.

 

when some of his line moves didn't workout he just let them sit.

 

two of his moves that did work out (sam and Jonas) he let crumble by letting pat will walk and jonas walk too (without a good replacement).

 

the bottom line is he did make some attempts, but erred on the side of skill players over big men, and that is why we suck

[Kelly the Dog]

I'm not sure why TD should get any criticism whatsoever for Jonas Jennings. He did absolutely the right thing in that situation and let Jennings go. JJ signs a 36 million deal, and TD replaced him for about 3 million with a guy who played 16 games (to Jennings' 3!) and was our most consistent lineman. While Gandy is not great, LT was literally the least of our problems on the OL. And more than likely will get better, especially if moved to guard.

 

TD failed to get quality offensive linemen that could stay healthy and work together into a cohesive unit. But much of the criticism of him about the lines is way off base. He didn't ignore the lines whatsoever. He spent high picks, mid picks and low picks on them. Signed numerous FAs. He got extremely unlucky due to injuries every year, and he had some bad judgments on talent which came back to haunt him. But he didn't ignore it or not see the importance of it.

[colin]

I'm not sure why TD should get any criticism whatsoever for Jonas Jennings. He did absolutely the right thing in that situation and let Jennings go. JJ signs a 36 million deal, and TD replaced him for about 3 million with a guy who played 16 games (to Jennings' 3!) and was our most consistent lineman. While Gandy is not great, LT was literally the least of our problems on the OL. And more than likely will get better, especially if moved to guard.

 

TD failed to get quality offensive linemen that could stay healthy and work together into a cohesive unit. But much of the criticism of him about the lines is way off base. He didn't ignore the lines whatsoever. He spent high picks, mid picks and low picks on them. Signed numerous FAs. He got extremely unlucky due to injuries every year, and he had some bad judgments on talent which came back to haunt him. But he didn't ignore it or not see the importance of it.

558237[/snapback]

 

when given the choice he always went for upgrades at RB and QB, WR over lines inspite of having spent recent picks

 

(Drew was a pick, then he signs JP, travis was a pick, then he gets willis, moulds was a big FA contract and he got reed, evans, AND roscoe)

 

he let JJ and pat walk without a real replacement for either, he was unlucky with mike will's injury but WAS luck in JJs injury (luck to not have kept him before he got hurt, if he played in 16 games and was one of the better LTs in the NFC we'd be fuming)

[nero47]

It's pretty obvious now that Donahoe was a "Captain Queeg."  Probably even walked around the office, ballbearings in hand, wanting to know who took the strawberries.

 

(Now THAT'S a reference you'd have to be closer to Marv's age to get!)

 

One Bills Drive was a bad work environment under TD.  He had to go.

 

PTR

557904[/snapback]

Cagney wasn't it, or Bogart. I forget.

[Steven in MD]

Having visited Buffalo the last few days, I got to hear and read the reaction to Marv Levy.  Sadly, our two most prominent media outlets (GR and The News) chose to spin what transpired toward the negative.

 

Jerry Sullivan was his usually sarcastic but charming self.  Schopp and the Bulldog were climbing over each other to see who could be more appalled.  Even the affable Bob Matthews had misgivings.

 

What everyone seems to miss is that Levy is the last guy in the organization, besides Wilson, to have worked with the Bills when they were an elite team.  He knows what parts go into making a team like that.

 

Levy also comes from a time, a time that predates most of us, our parents and grandparents time, when charecter was valued.  All the great teams had character from top to bottom?  Name one NFL team that had a bunch of showboaters that ever won it all?

 

Levy will have one job in evaluating talent: He will look for character players.  Modrak and Guy will find them, chart them, and video them.  Levy will tell them which ones have the fire.

 

Wilson?  He just wants to be told what his team is doing.  Something that Donahoe, incredibly, never did.  No owner should find out stuff about his team in the papers.  Levy speaks Wilson's language.

 

Mullarkey will be under the heat lamp in 2006, but I honestly don't think he would still be here is Levy didn't think he had some potential.  Enough to put his rep on the line for him.  Mullarkey would have to completely crash-and-burn for Levy to give him the hook mid-season.

 

So count me among the optimistic.  Maybe the Sabres have a lesson for us.  How many thought Lindy Ruff and Darcy Regier should been fired ages ago?  Who looks smart now?

 

PTR

557802[/snapback]

I have been preaching that since the day we hired TD. I was so upset we went outside the organization to replace Butler. The Bills under Polian and Butler with Levy as the HC was built on character. The Bills were a classy organization. Now, we let ourselves become a classless organization with people like TD banning fans from enjoying games. It is good to see us back to the winning ways.

[IDBillzFan]

While Gandy is not great, LT was literally the least of our problems on the OL. And more than likely will get better, especially if moved to guard.

558237[/snapback]

I sincerely hope you're right. I fear I have forgotten the entire year-long performance of Gandy after watching Abrahams completely school him on (what I think was) our last offensive play of the season.