Kelly the Dog Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 No one knows what will happen but to me this series of moves stinks, for several reasons. The biggest of which is that the biggest problem with the Bills, besides their lines, is no team identity and no team direction. Right now, although the numbers may fluctuate on an hourly basis, you're going to have four disparate headstrong guys all having 25% of the power and input. Ralph, Marv, Modrak, Mularkey, and maybe five depending on who actually will now negotiate contracts and be responsible for the cap, like Overdorf or whatever his name is. There is nobody really in charge. There is no vision. There is no leadership. There is no one the team can get behind and say we're going to war for this guy. Modrak and Mularkey are lame ducks. The only way this will work, IMO, is if Ralph really put Marv as GM only in title, with Modrak in charge of the draft and the player personel, working with Marv. Marv is the public face of the team and handles the press and fans and sweettalks free agents and is lovable Uncle Mo. But Modrak is making most of the football decisions behind the scenes and without the responsibility of being the marketing guy and public face and capologist, etc. That way, he could give Mularkey one chance to get the team on the right track.
Stevie Ray Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 Good observation. This would allow TM to show that he is not an extension of TD and if next season is a success in terms of improvement, I could see Marv stepping out of the picture and Modrak assuming full GM responsibilities, as well as getting the title. If on the other hand next season is a failure, Modrak gets canned and a new young "name" may be brought in to be "groomed" under Marv to be the eventual GM. In any case, Marv seems to be a stop-gap.
Corp000085 Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 and he's completely untouchable... to me, its a win-win situation for the bills.
Rico Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 Oh well, at least Bobby April probably isn't going anywhere.
Ghost of BiB Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 Oh well, at least Bobby April probably isn't going anywhere. 554422[/snapback] It's not over, till it's over.
PromoTheRobot Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 contracts and be responsible for the cap, like Overdorf or whatever his name is. There is nobody really in charge. There is no vision. There is no leadership.554397[/snapback] I think that's a pretty harsh assessment. Levy has plenty of leadership to offer, even if it's mostly as a figurehead. The Bills were circling the drain with Donahoe. Bringing Levy in reminds people of the greatness the team once showed. And it's not like Levy was asleep those Super Bowl years. Levy, if anything, understands the kind of charecter a team needs to create to be a champion. Modrak can find the talent. Levy can tell if the guys have the heart. Then it's up to Mularkey to turn them into a team. My biggest fear is not Modrak or Levy, but whether the team will still follow Mularkey. He did not handle the veterans well at all. We shall see if he can overcome that mess. PTR
JoeF Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 No one knows what will happen but to me this series of moves stinks, for several reasons. The biggest of which is that the biggest problem with the Bills, besides their lines, is no team identity and no team direction. Right now, although the numbers may fluctuate on an hourly basis, you're going to have four disparate headstrong guys all having 25% of the power and input. Ralph, Marv, Modrak, Mularkey, and maybe five depending on who actually will now negotiate contracts and be responsible for the cap, like Overdorf or whatever his name is. There is nobody really in charge. There is no vision. There is no leadership. There is no one the team can get behind and say we're going to war for this guy. Modrak and Mularkey are lame ducks. The only way this will work, IMO, is if Ralph really put Marv as GM only in title, with Modrak in charge of the draft and the player personel, working with Marv. Marv is the public face of the team and handles the press and fans and sweettalks free agents and is lovable Uncle Mo. But Modrak is making most of the football decisions behind the scenes and without the responsibility of being the marketing guy and public face and capologist, etc. That way, he could give Mularkey one chance to get the team on the right track. 554397[/snapback] Kelly--this will sound like pandering--but have you read Marv's book? The guy's ego is based on successful teamwork not on individual glory--he has based his life on being part of successful teams, knowing his place and providing what he needs to the situation to make everyone better. He is so smart and so capable he can fill several roles. If you need him to be the visionary he can do that. If you need him to be the worker bee/motivator, he can do that. If you need him to be the hard ass, he can be that. If you need him to sell the franchise to a coordinator or free agent--he can do that. He will assess Mularkey's talent and Modrak's strengths--support them--put them into positions where they can succeed and then fill in the gaps. He is an amazing guy. The only place he didn't mesh was in KC where he had a team president between he and the owner and the team President was actively working against him on several fronts inlcuding a QB controversy (Fuller vs. Kinney)...He took programs like Cal and New Mexico, William and Mary with little history of success and made them work--Cal by their own admission, let him go too early. He took the Bills and made them champions -- he molded to what we needed at the time guiding the team with a steady/solid hand while Polian and crew procured great talent. I know a lot of folks believe he had the easiest coaching job in the world..but someone had to make the pieces fit and Marv did. The whole organization gets better tomorrow when this is announced. We have been joking a lot today...but I am honestly somewhat optimistic because we have a master motivator/tactician and human behavior expert back involved.... Just my 2 cents--probably worth about that much...
/dev/null Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 and he's completely untouchable... to me, its a win-win situation for the bills. 554411[/snapback] i disagree. as fickle as Bills fans are, as evidenced by many posts on TSW, if the Bills were to suffer thru a couple more losing seasons the mob will sharpen their pitchforks and light their torches and come after Marv
Gavin in Va Beach Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 Kelly--this will sound like pandering--but have you read Marv's book? The guy's ego is based on successful teamwork not on individual glory--he has based his life on being part of successful teams, knowing his place and providing what he needs to the situation to make everyone better. He is so smart and so capable he can fill several roles. If you need him to be the visionary he can do that. If you need him to be the worker bee/motivator, he can do that. If you need him to be the hard ass, he can be that. If you need him to sell the franchise to a coordinator or free agent--he can do that. He will assess Mularkey's talent and Modrak's strengths--support them--put them into positions where they can succeed and then fill in the gaps. He is an amazing guy. The only place he didn't mesh was in KC where he had a team president between he and the owner and the team President was actively working against him on several fronts inlcuding a QB controversy (Fuller vs. Kinney)...He took programs like Cal and New Mexico, William and Mary with little history of success and made them work--Cal by their own admission, let him go too early. He took the Bills and made them champions -- he molded to what we needed at the time guiding the team with a steady/solid hand while Polian and crew procured great talent. I know a lot of folks believe he had the easiest coaching job in the world..but someone had to make the pieces fit and Marv did. The whole organization gets better tomorrow when this is announced. We have been joking a lot today...but I am honestly somewhat optimistic because we have a master motivator/tactician and human behavior expert back involved.... Just my 2 cents--probably worth about that much... 554438[/snapback] Nice post. You've nearly sold me on bringing Marv back. Still, I fear this has train wreck written all over it. Not that it would be much different from recent years though...
Corp000085 Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 i disagree. as fickle as Bills fans are, as evidenced by many posts on TSW, if the Bills were to suffer thru a couple more losing seasons the mob will sharpen their pitchforks and light their torches and come after Marv 554441[/snapback] that's just us... we were lambasting modrak before ralph even finished with his "i fired TD" sentence. in the grander scheme, marv levy is as close to a living god as it gets, besides jim kelly.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 5, 2006 Author Posted January 5, 2006 I think that's a pretty harsh assessment. Levy has plenty of leadership to offer, even if it's mostly as a figurehead. The Bills were circling the drain with Donahoe. Bringing Levy in reminds people of the greatness the team once showed. And it's not like Levy was asleep those Super Bowl years. Levy, if anything, understands the kind of charecter a team needs to create to be a champion. Modrak can find the talent. Levy can tell if the guys have the heart. Then it's up to Mularkey to turn them into a team. My biggest fear is not Modrak or Levy, but whether the team will still follow Mularkey. He did not handle the veterans well at all. We shall see if he can overcome that mess. PTR 554429[/snapback] Marv was great with leadership when he was here. But he had a lot of power. He was the head coach. He has very little power here. That is the thesis of my post and main complaint. Everyone has a little bit of power here now. The successful teams it seems to me have one guy that is the undisputed leader, like Belichick or Parcells or Vermeil or Gruden in the recent past. Or at the very least, two guys like Polian and Dungy in Indy. Right now, everyone has a little power, and I don't really believe that Marv can be a leader with no real power.
SDS Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 i disagree. as fickle as Bills fans are, as evidenced by many posts on TSW, if the Bills were to suffer thru a couple more losing seasons the mob will sharpen their pitchforks and light their torches and come after Marv 554441[/snapback] In fact, I see little chance for him to succeed and more than likely he will tarnish his reputation to much larger audience who have bestowed sainthood upon him (forgetting that we actually ran him out of town too).
SDS Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 Levy, if anything, understands the kind of charecter a team needs to create to be a champion. 554429[/snapback] Would this be because he studied the Giants, Redskins, and Cowboys in the offseason?
Kelly the Dog Posted January 5, 2006 Author Posted January 5, 2006 Kelly--this will sound like pandering--but have you read Marv's book? The guy's ego is based on successful teamwork not on individual glory--he has based his life on being part of successful teams, knowing his place and providing what he needs to the situation to make everyone better. He is so smart and so capable he can fill several roles. If you need him to be the visionary he can do that. If you need him to be the worker bee/motivator, he can do that. If you need him to be the hard ass, he can be that. If you need him to sell the franchise to a coordinator or free agent--he can do that. He will assess Mularkey's talent and Modrak's strengths--support them--put them into positions where they can succeed and then fill in the gaps. He is an amazing guy. The only place he didn't mesh was in KC where he had a team president between he and the owner and the team President was actively working against him on several fronts inlcuding a QB controversy (Fuller vs. Kinney)...He took programs like Cal and New Mexico, William and Mary with little history of success and made them work--Cal by their own admission, let him go too early. He took the Bills and made them champions -- he molded to what we needed at the time guiding the team with a steady/solid hand while Polian and crew procured great talent. I know a lot of folks believe he had the easiest coaching job in the world..but someone had to make the pieces fit and Marv did. The whole organization gets better tomorrow when this is announced. We have been joking a lot today...but I am honestly somewhat optimistic because we have a master motivator/tactician and human behavior expert back involved.... Just my 2 cents--probably worth about that much... 554438[/snapback] That's a really good post, and response. I hope you are right. Surely we all have opinions on this and no one in the world has idea idea of what is going to happen. Marv did a ton of great things in his tenure, but he was also a stubborn bastard. To me, he was Phil Jackson without the gameday ability to win the big one. He was very good at coaching and keeping a team of big egos and star players, something that is not easy and that a lot of the great X's and O's coaches cannot do. But I don't see him as a great motivator of average players. I think he has a lot to offer as far as advice. I think he has a lot to offer about how a team needs to operate. I think he has a ton to offer the fans and Ralph trying to get the touchy-feelies back with the community. I don't know if he is the guy to make the tough decisions on how much to pay free agents, who to draft, how much Mike Williams may be worth, etc.
34-78-83 Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 The only way this will work, IMO, is if Ralph really put Marv as GM only in title, with Modrak in charge of the draft and the player personel, working with Marv. Marv is the public face of the team and handles the press and fans and sweettalks free agents and is lovable Uncle Mo. But Modrak is making most of the football decisions behind the scenes and without the responsibility of being the marketing guy and public face and capologist, etc. That way, he could give Mularkey one chance to get the team on the right track. 554397[/snapback] I think you have hit on the exact plan of action here. My father and I were just talking and speculating about the same @ 2 hours ago
dave mcbride Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 No one knows what will happen but to me this series of moves stinks, for several reasons. The biggest of which is that the biggest problem with the Bills, besides their lines, is no team identity and no team direction. Right now, although the numbers may fluctuate on an hourly basis, you're going to have four disparate headstrong guys all having 25% of the power and input. Ralph, Marv, Modrak, Mularkey, and maybe five depending on who actually will now negotiate contracts and be responsible for the cap, like Overdorf or whatever his name is. There is nobody really in charge. There is no vision. There is no leadership. There is no one the team can get behind and say we're going to war for this guy. Modrak and Mularkey are lame ducks. The only way this will work, IMO, is if Ralph really put Marv as GM only in title, with Modrak in charge of the draft and the player personel, working with Marv. Marv is the public face of the team and handles the press and fans and sweettalks free agents and is lovable Uncle Mo. But Modrak is making most of the football decisions behind the scenes and without the responsibility of being the marketing guy and public face and capologist, etc. That way, he could give Mularkey one chance to get the team on the right track. 554397[/snapback] marv headstrong??? he's famous for working collaboratively with others. dog, i really disagree with this post. i think there's a lot to be very optimistic about. we have an orchestrator, a guy in charge of scouting/drafting who knows how to actually do it (modrak), and a coach who i like (although i'm admittedly in the minority) and who seems a bit like a marv guy. mularkey also seems like the type -- based on a good deal of evidence -- that likes to work collaboratively and isn't a my way or the highway kind of guy. as for no identity, how can you possibly say that??? marv hasn't even been hired yet and you have *no* idea as to what his plans are. cheer up - it'll be better than what we had, i think.
dave mcbride Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 In fact, I see little chance for him to succeed and more than likely he will tarnish his reputation to much larger audience who have bestowed sainthood upon him (forgetting that we actually ran him out of town too). 554449[/snapback] based on what evidence other than your strong feeling that he wasn't much of a head coach?
Kelly the Dog Posted January 5, 2006 Author Posted January 5, 2006 marv headstrong??? he's famous for working collaboratively with others. dog, i really disagree with this post. i think there's a lot to be very optimistic about. we have an orchestrator, a guy in charge of scouting/drafting who knows how to actually do it (modrak), and a coach who i like (although i'm admittedly in the minority) and who seems a bit like a marv guy. mularkey also seems like the type based on a good deal of evidence that he likes to work collaboratively and isn't a my way or the highway kind of guy. as for no identity, how can you possibly say that??? marv hasn't even been hired yet and you have *no* idea as to what his plans are. cheer up - it'll be better than what we had, i think. 554465[/snapback] Marv is very headstrong. Walt Corey? Not playing rookies no matter how much better than the veterans ahead of them based on principal? Marv puts on a great public face as the witty jovial professor but he is a tough, stubborn, sailor-mouthed, extremely confident, loyal to a fault, opinionated bastard. And most of that is good when you're a head coach.
dave mcbride Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 Marv was great with leadership when he was here. But he had a lot of power. He was the head coach. He has very little power here. That is the thesis of my post and main complaint. Everyone has a little bit of power here now. The successful teams it seems to me have one guy that is the undisputed leader, like Belichick or Parcells or Vermeil or Gruden in the recent past. Or at the very least, two guys like Polian and Dungy in Indy. Right now, everyone has a little power, and I don't really believe that Marv can be a leader with no real power. 554445[/snapback] again, how you can possibly say this without knowing the least thing about how the structure will actually work? this is really just wild guesswork.
dave mcbride Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 Marv is very headstrong. Walt Corey? Not playing rookies no matter how much better than the veterans ahead of them based on principal? Marv puts on a great public face as the witty jovial professor but he is a tough, stubborn, sailor-mouthed, extremely confident, loyal to a fault, opinionated bastard. And most of that is good when you're a head coach. 554473[/snapback] walt corey? you mean the guy whose defense improved greatly between 1991 and 1992 and whose defense came close to setting a league record for turnovers in 1993? the guy who marv fired without a problem after the 1994 season? i'm not saying corey was great, but my god, the retrospective trashing of the assistants is just ridiculously wrong. the problem with the bills defense had a great deal to do with the lack of good defensive tackles than walt corey's strategic acumen.
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