dave mcbride Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 Got any information on the salary cap situation for the team for those years? Fact is a GM isn't judged on win/loss ratio alone. 553486[/snapback] maybe you don't judge a gm that way, but i do. i couldn't give a rat's ass about the salary cap, because i think it's usually (not always) just an excuse to get rid of players you don't want anymore. how is that washington year after year pays a fortune for its players yet is always under the cap with ease? how did oakland go from being way over the cap before the season started this year to getting under it with ease without cutting one important player. this is not directed at you, but i really think the cap is something that fans latch onto to make themselves feel smart. to quote a friend of ralph, just win baby.
Bill from NYC Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 this is not directed at you, but i really think the cap is something that fans latch onto to make themselves feel smart. 553609[/snapback] What do you mean? Do you remember the cap mess that TD was left? The plain truth is that Mr. Butler made a run, over-spent on situational players (3 mil per year for Sam Rogers, etc.) and failed. To his credit, TD was more responsible wrt the salary cap. His problems were the drafts and his ego. It also didn't help to go with a "smashmouth" football team with no blocking.
Sound_n_Fury Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 Jerry Gray speaks: "Back in Buffalo, Mularkey's assistants were at work as usual, awaiting news on their fate. Mularkey planned staff evaluations today. "No word is a good word right now," said Gray, a holdover from Gregg Williams' original 2001 staff. "We're basically status quo. Nobody's said anything to us. We're waiting on Mr. Wilson to decide what he wants to do and we're going to take it from there."
Scraps Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 maybe you don't judge a gm that way, but i do. i couldn't give a rat's ass about the salary cap, because i think it's usually (not always) just an excuse to get rid of players you don't want anymore. how is that washington year after year pays a fortune for its players yet is always under the cap with ease? how did oakland go from being way over the cap before the season started this year to getting under it with ease without cutting one important player. this is not directed at you, but i really think the cap is something that fans latch onto to make themselves feel smart. to quote a friend of ralph, just win baby. 553609[/snapback] Well if you don't give a rat's ass about the salary cap, you're ignorant. Washington gets under the cap each year the same way the Bills, 49ers and Cowboys did during the 1990s. They convert salary to bonus and lengthen contracts. That simply pushes the cap hit out to future years. Its almost like living high on the hog off of credit card debt. That will work for a period of time, but eventually you will have to take a huge cap hit on a player that you've restructured time after time. It happened to Buffalo, San Francisco and Dallas, it will happen to Washington to. If you bothered to learn about the cap you would know that, but ignorance in bliss. Butler knew that hit was coming.
Adam Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 Donohoe never has quite absorbed just how crazy Bills fans can be. Remember how pissed/shocked he was at all the Gregg Williams bashing? Must have been easier to be a G.M. before the age of the internet and chat boards!! By the way, i actually think it's tougher to be a coach/G.M. in Buffalo than a major market. The small army of media here can be brutal and there's nowhere to run or hide. At least in a big market there's a bunch of other sports teams and failures in any given year. 552929[/snapback] Buffalo media is brital- and I dont mean how they cover things
Simon Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 His problems were the drafts and his ego. Clements Schobel Edwards Jennings Williams Reed Denney McGahee Kelsay Crowell McGee Aiken Haggan Evans Losman Anderson Find 5 teams that got more players than this out of the same 4 drafts. That would put TD's drafts in the Top 15% Find 10 teams that got more players than this out of the same 4 drafts. That would put TD's drafts in the top 1/3rd of the league. Find 15 teams that got more players than this out of the same 4 drafts. That would put TD's drafts in the top half of the league. How many teams can you find that have done better?
dave mcbride Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 Well if you don't give a rat's ass about the salary cap, you're ignorant. Washington gets under the cap each year the same way the Bills, 49ers and Cowboys did during the 1990s. They convert salary to bonus and lengthen contracts. That simply pushes the cap hit out to future years. Its almost like living high on the hog off of credit card debt. That will work for a period of time, but eventually you will have to take a huge cap hit on a player that you've restructured time after time. It happened to Buffalo, San Francisco and Dallas, it will happen to Washington to. If you bothered to learn about the cap you would know that, but ignorance in bliss. Butler knew that hit was coming. 553636[/snapback] spare me the lecture, scraps. i know as much about the cap as you, trust me. to me, it's usually a macguffin, which in hitchcock movies were things that seemed important but were ultimately marginal to the main plot. the so-called cap mess of 2001 was nothing of the sort, and was created by the jettisoning of many players that donohoe didn't want. their cap bonuses therefore accelerated into 01. after the bills went 3-13, donohoe conveniently blamed it on the cap. he neglected to mention that many of the main contracts had been cleared out in february 2000 (reed, smith, thomas) and had no bearing on the 01 number.
SDS Posted January 4, 2006 Author Posted January 4, 2006 Jerry Gray speaks: "Back in Buffalo, Mularkey's assistants were at work as usual, awaiting news on their fate. Mularkey planned staff evaluations today. "No word is a good word right now," said Gray, a holdover from Gregg Williams' original 2001 staff. "We're basically status quo. Nobody's said anything to us. We're waiting on Mr. Wilson to decide what he wants to do and we're going to take it from there." 553632[/snapback] From my understanding he is letting this play out... I don't know why. Being a "good soldier" was the phrase used.
HarkinBanks Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 ClementsSchobel Edwards Jennings Williams Reed Denney McGahee Kelsay Crowell McGee Aiken Haggan Evans Losman Anderson Find 5 teams that got more players than this out of the same 4 drafts. That would put TD's drafts in the Top 15% Find 10 teams that got more players than this out of the same 4 drafts. That would put TD's drafts in the top 1/3rd of the league. Find 15 teams that got more players than this out of the same 4 drafts. That would put TD's drafts in the top half of the league. How many teams can you find that have done better? 553641[/snapback] hmmmm...find four teams with worse records over the past five years and this puts TD's regime smack dab in the bottom of the league. Keeping the lousy players you draft does not mean you are succesful!
Buftex Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 All of what you say is true. I wish there wasn't so much "absolutism" running rampant. By that I mean suggesting that TD is all good or he is all bad. He made some good moves for the Bills -- and he made some that unfortunately turned out to be not-so-good. The bottom line is that things just didn't work out -- and we need to move in a different direction. It doesn't mean that TD should be demonized. Just thank him for doing the best job he can -- and hope that his successor is able to do what he couldn't. Look at all of the embarassment that the team has endured in just the past few days alone: 1. Losing to the pitiful Jets 2. Having the coach of the defending college champs refer to the staff he worked with for this team back in 84 as "the worst ever". 3. With all of the Gregg Williams worshiping going on by the national press, we keep hearing that he deserves a reprieve, considering it was in Buffalo where he failed as a head coach. 4. And becasue of ESPN's ties to TD, we are going to continue to hear from Mort and his pals how foolish Wilson was for letting TD go. Can't you see that when TD winds up at ESPN or wherever else it is he's going, being the spin doctor that he is, he will point out what a no-win situation he faced in Buffalo? And hearing us as fans say cruel and foolish things about him as he heads out the door will only fan that flame. 553137[/snapback] Oh, I completely understand why TD is being let go. It is hard to argue with the move. I just think that with the scrambling that was done, the last 6 or 7 weeks to save jobs, more damage was done to the franchise than was necessary. It just seemed like it was inevitable that it would have to end ugly. Sorry, I get as pissed as anyone with stupid play calling, and bad management decisions, but I don't always feel that tearing everything apart is the answer. I think this was a very stable franchise, until about week 9 of this season. Even though the Bills hadn't made the playoffs the last 5 years, the franchise seemed perceived as one of the better in the leauge. It was a lot of hard work by Bill Polian, John Butler, and Tom Donohoe that gave that helped to remove that "laughing stock" aura around the franchise. I think we are very close to that level again, and I didn't really think that 8 weeks ago, even though I knew we were not making the playoffs, again! Whenever those inevitable discussions come up, about the Bills leaving Buffalo, I had always felt cocky, like, "this is a strong franchise, with a small, but rabid fan base...they aren't going anywhere." I didn't feel that way in the early 80's. It is starting to feel that way again. Losing games, missing the playoffs all lead fans to react negatively (often overreacting) which in turn, causes GM's, coaches and owners to, perhaps, overreact to criticism. The franchise was committed to JP Losman, going into the season. After 4 weeks, it was apparent he was not ready to start in the NFL. Mularkey, or TD, or whoever, made the (correct) decision that JP should sit a little, hoping a decent vetran journeyman could settle the season down. It didn't work. The season, very early on, is spinning the drain, and the HC and GM have to endure nasty criticism, day after day, week after week, for two months. They start to overthink everything, and it all gets worse...now, it appears that the Bills are going from being a disappointing team on the field, again, to a team with a very murky immediate future...the 87 year old owner is likely another re-build away from getting what he desperately wants...I am starting to wonder if this team will win a Super Bowl in my lifetime, let alone the owners. I am less than half his age! Maybe I am overreacting too, but I feel honestly a little sad as a Bills fan today. Not so much because someone lost their job, that happens all the time, and may have been warranted. It is just that feeling of starting from scratch again. There doesn't seem to be much left to build on. The franchise, which is not ours, but we adore, seems to be in realy tough spot.
Bill from NYC Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 ClementsSchobel Edwards Jennings Williams Reed Denney McGahee Kelsay Crowell McGee Aiken Haggan Evans Losman Anderson Find 5 teams that got more players than this out of the same 4 drafts. That would put TD's drafts in the Top 15% Find 10 teams that got more players than this out of the same 4 drafts. That would put TD's drafts in the top 1/3rd of the league. Find 15 teams that got more players than this out of the same 4 drafts. That would put TD's drafts in the top half of the league. How many teams can you find that have done better? 553641[/snapback] Simon, Reed was the 4th pick of round 2. He is a clear bust. Anderson is shaky at best. He is knocking on the door of bust. He may even have a battering ram. Kelsay looked good but has taken a clear step back. Is this what you want from a mid-round 2nd? Edwards isn't bad, but he is a situational player in round 3. Haggan and Aiken are good STs guys. Not bad. JP? Are you forgetting the cost? Once again, Parrish was such a bad pick that it is reasonable to question TD's motive for taking it. MW was a franchise crippling blunder. He was a fat RT taken with the #4 pick. He is probably the highest paid RT of all time. No, I am pretty secure in saying that TD tanked wrt the draft during his tenure.
Scraps Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 spare me the lecture, scraps. i know as much about the cap as you, trust me. to me, it's usually a macguffin, which in hitchcock movies were things that seemed important but were ultimately marginal to the main plot. the so-called cap mess of 2001 was nothing of the sort, and was created by the jettisoning of many players that donohoe didn't want. their cap bonuses therefore accelerated into 01. after the bills went 3-13, donohoe conveniently blamed it on the cap. he neglected to mention that many of the main contracts had been cleared out in february 2000 (reed, smith, thomas) and had no bearing on the 01 number. 553647[/snapback] The Bills were 16 million over the 2001 cap before free agency started thanks to overpaying and restructuring stalwarts like Jerry Ostroski and John Fina. It was a very real problem, not something Donaho created. It might be argued that he cut to much but cuts had to be made. I think the Bills had $14 million tied up in the QB situation alone.
Tom Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 Davis wasn't in the 'foolish gang' ( the name given the orignal AFL owners ) . The Raiders were orignally owned by a couple of other guys- don't recall their names. These were the two guys who Ralph lent money to to keep their franchise from failing and taking the league with it. "The Foolish Club" In 1958 Lamar Hunt (son and heir of Texas oilman H. L. Hunt) attempted to bring an NFL franchise to his hometown of Dallas but was rejected by the league. A second attempt in 1959 was also unsuccessful. Hunt was advised by league officials to contact the owners of the Chicago Cardinals, who offered to sell Hunt a 20 percent stake in the team. Hunt rejected the offer, and it was then that he began to envision not just a new team in the NFL, but an entirely new league. Hunt began his quest for a new league by contacting others who had shown interest in the Cardinals, and assessing their interest in starting a new league. These included K.S. (Bud) Adams of Houston, Bob Howsam of Denver and Max Winter and Bill Boyer of Minneapolis. This brought to four the number of potential teams in the new league. Next, Hunt sought franchises in Los Angeles and New York City. But at the same time he sought the blessings of the NFL for his nascent league, as he did not seek a rivalry with the older and more established league. "I told myself I didn’t want to go into this if it meant some kind of battle," Hunt would later recall. "Of course, this was one of the more naive thoughts in the history of pro sports." [1] Soon after, Hunt received commitments from Barron Hilton (Los Angeles) and Harry Wismer (New York). On August 14, 1959 the first league meeting was held in Chicago and charter teams were given to Dallas, New York, Houston, Denver, Los Angeles and Minneapolis. On August 22 the league was officially named the American Football League. Two more cities were awarded franchises later in the year - Buffalo (Ralph Wilson) on October 28 and Boston (William H. (Billy) Sullivan) on November 22. The AFL's first draft took place the same day Boston was awarded their franchise. The draft lasted for 33 rounds.
The Dean Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 I know losing a national election has some consequences, but isn't this a bit extreme? 553555[/snapback]
Adam Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 Simon, Reed was the 4th pick of round 2. He is a clear bust. Anderson is shaky at best. He is knocking on the door of bust. He may even have a battering ram. Kelsay looked good but has taken a clear step back. Is this what you want from a mid-round 2nd? Edwards isn't bad, but he is a situational player in round 3. Haggan and Aiken are good STs guys. Not bad. JP? Are you forgetting the cost? Once again, Parrish was such a bad pick that it is reasonable to question TD's motive for taking it. MW was a franchise crippling blunder. He was a fat RT taken with the #4 pick. He is probably the highest paid RT of all time. No, I am pretty secure in saying that TD tanked wrt the draft during his tenure. 553676[/snapback] A bust....do people actually know what a bust is? Reed was a valuable part of the team this season, and I don't give a rats butt if he lives up to where he was drafted. People (mostly ignorant) called Kyle Boller a bust for years. The fact is, that the NFL takes patience. This isn't college football- it takes time to develop players, and educated fans realize that. Not to get on you, but just ranting here
Simon Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 Simon, Reed was the 4th pick of round 2. He is a clear bust. Anderson is shaky at best. He is knocking on the door of bust. He may even have a battering ram. Kelsay looked good but has taken a clear step back. Is this what you want from a mid-round 2nd? Edwards isn't bad, but he is a situational player in round 3. Haggan and Aiken are good STs guys. Not bad. JP? Are you forgetting the cost? Once again, Parrish was such a bad pick that it is reasonable to question TD's motive for taking it. MW was a franchise crippling blunder. He was a fat RT taken with the #4 pick. He is probably the highest paid RT of all time. No, I am pretty secure in saying that TD tanked wrt the draft during his tenure. 553676[/snapback] Find 5 teams that got more players than this out of the same 4 drafts. That would put TD's drafts in the Top 15% Find 10 teams that got more players than this out of the same 4 drafts. That would put TD's drafts in the top 1/3rd of the league. Find 15 teams that got more players than this out of the same 4 drafts. That would put TD's drafts in the top half of the league. How many teams can you find that have done better?
MDH Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 Find 5 teams that got more players than this out of the same 4 drafts.That would put TD's drafts in the Top 15% Find 10 teams that got more players than this out of the same 4 drafts. That would put TD's drafts in the top 1/3rd of the league. Find 15 teams that got more players than this out of the same 4 drafts. That would put TD's drafts in the top half of the league. How many teams can you find that have done better? 553841[/snapback] Winning is the bottom line. That's all that matters in the NFL. I agree his drafts have been pretty good in terms of producing quality players. But for all those quality players this team hasn't won.
dave mcbride Posted January 4, 2006 Posted January 4, 2006 The Bills were 16 million over the 2001 cap before free agency started thanks to overpaying and restructuring stalwarts like Jerry Ostroski and John Fina. It was a very real problem, not something Donaho created. It might be argued that he cut to much but cuts had to be made. I think the Bills had $14 million tied up in the QB situation alone. 553702[/snapback] to be clear, i don't think butler walked on water. the qb # was a real problem. the fina restructure in 2000 looks bad in retrospect, but at the time he was a decent lt (not great, mind you) in a league full of bad ones. he got hurt after that and deteriorated, but it's not like you can predict those things. he probably did get too much, but the alternative was pretty grim.
Bill from NYC Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 A bust....do people actually know what a bust is? Reed was a valuable part of the team this season, and I don't give a rats butt if he lives up to where he was drafted. People (mostly ignorant) called Kyle Boller a bust for years. The fact is, that the NFL takes patience. This isn't college football- it takes time to develop players, and educated fans realize that. Not to get on you, but just ranting here 553789[/snapback] Reed caught a few passes. He also had drop after drop. A "valuable part" of a 5-11 team? Come on, shall we? He has been hurting the Bills more than helping since his rookie year (which was good). Oh, on the rare instance when he plays special teams, he also sucks. Watch the replay. He got knocked on his ass and cost us the game vs. the jests on that kick return. Josh Reed is not a good football player. He would have been a score if drafted in round 7. As the 4th in round 2, he was yet another TD bust.
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