VIPP Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Eli Manning vs. Pittsburgh 16 of 23 (70%) for 182 yards, 2 TD, 1 INT, 2 rushes for 18 yards Tom Brady - Super Bowl (O.k., this was Brady's 2nd year, but Losman threw more passes as a rookie than Brady did.) Ben Roethlisberger - @Dallas (to pick just one example) 21 of 25 (84%!!!) for 193 yards, 2 TD Byron Leftwich - vs. San Diego 19 of 28 (68%) for 336 yards!!!, 2 TD Carson Palmer - @Baltimore (again, 2nd year, but Losman threw more passes as a rookie than Palmer did) 29 of 36 (80.6%!!) for 382 yards!!!, 3 TD and 1 INT Rex Grossman - vs. Washington 19 of 32 (59.4%) for 249 yds 2TD and 1 INT (note: this is not spectacular by any means, but is more yards than Losman has ever thrown for, and a higher completion percentage than ever game against the Texans.) Next question? JDG How bout we stick with that question! You all want to compare JP's stats to other young QB's and say that he isn't cutting it...well in terms of some of the other QB's that JDG offered as comparison, I just thought this would be of some importance Drew Brees- was HORRIBLE in his first few seasons, mainly because he is a checkdown passer that rarely throws it to the WR's. He relies mainly on his RB and TE to make plays...hence LT with over 100 catches for a season. But it wasn't until he got a SOLID TE that he finally started playing like a starting calibre QB! Eli Manning- Didn't have the greatest bunch of WR's. Tiki was playing well and can catch out of the backfield and he already had Jeremy Shockey. But with TIME and FAITH from the coaching staff who told the team like it or not THIS IS OUR QB so GET USED TO IT. THey took their lumps with the kid, fixed up the O-line the following season, brought in the best FA WR on the market...couple that with a year under his belt understanding the offence + TIKI + Shockey = Results Ben Roethlisberger- Yea he was extremely accurate, but thats when you go to a team that has an AMAZING defense that won't let u down and give up a crushing TD to the opposing team on the last play of the game. Ya he preformed well with his team racking up like 150 rush yards a game...making the play action actual FOOL someone! ANd look at his pass attempts rarely does Ben throw the ball over 20..b'cuz the offense doesn't ask him too. ANd lets be real, he had the BEST O-LINE in football, he had hines ward, plaxico burress, Randle El, Reimershma (a good pass catchin TE), and that other TE...plus they drafted that Miller Kid. ANd the key point was just don't lose the game BEN... Carson- lol, first of all the kid was the 1st overall pick for a REASON folks...secondly he also had a pretty damn good O-line, solid running game, CHAD..CHAD...and CHAD!!! plus TJ and a whole other cast of decent WR's...that TE Shoebel, who is also pretty good.. The only exception could be Leftwich...but he also had a good defense, fred taylor, and a solid o-line...only thing he lacked was a solid receiving corps but he did have Jimmy Smith and they drafted a ton of WR's! You see u did put up some pretty good arguments, but the fact remains that the common demoninator that all these QB's had as rookie were: 1) a GOOD offensive line 2) a checkdown receiver (a pass catching running back) 3) a Solid TE (they say that a TE is a rookie QB's best friend) 4) a good defense (that will keep u in the game, and get u back that ball) 5) and i didn't mention this, but a GOOD coach...a coach that BACKS his QB ala Tom Coughlin, a coach that utilizes his QB's talents, a coach that won't come out guns a blazing in the first quarter, and then go conservative for the rest of the game..Mularkey's play calling has been horrible at times and as much as you want to blame JP...he aint the one calling the plays 6) a solid Running game- i'm not saying that McGahee hasn't played well, but he has been sporatic! He gets pulled out of the games ALOT!! Once were down we shy away from the run, he splits TOO much time with that midget SHaud WIllliams, and we don't play that smash mouth football that MM has been saying that were going to be! if you can honestly tell me that JP has been given all, if not all at least SOME, of the above criteria then I agree that he is a bust and we need to get rid of him. But he HASN'T!! Couple that with some Fans that expect the world out of him + a washup backup QB who has 1 good game + a benching....i bet JP has regressed more this season than the progress he SHOULD have made. The kid has been asked to play like a 10 year vet, to win games with him arm regardless of an o-line, or a running game... I don't know of many QB's that can do that rookies or veterans! Next season hopefully they let the kid play the WHOLE season and either he has it or doesn't. With the way some fans react on the bills team, i'm glad none of you guys are GM b'cuz we would have never gotten the chance to see Eli Manning, or Drew Brees, or Boller develop! David Carr would have been gone after season 1, Harrington shouldn't even be seeing the field, and Alex Smith would have got benched before he'd have the ability to throw that first TD pass this week! It is what it is folks... Any more questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKO Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Next season hopefully they let the kid play the WHOLE season and either he has it or doesn't. With the way some fans react on the bills team, i'm glad none of you guys are GM b'cuz we would have never gotten the chance to see Eli Manning, or Drew Brees, or Boller develop! David Carr would have been gone after season 1, Harrington shouldn't even be seeing the field, and Alex Smith would have got benched before he'd have the ability to throw that first TD pass this week! 548740[/snapback] We can throw any stat for our JP-bashers or our JP-apologists... Let me bring one I just made up, but that I think would be very accurate... If you could ask 100 Buffalo Bill fans what would they prefer to see in their lifetime from these: a) Pick a 1st-rd QB, watch him though his struggling first two or three years, and then finally realize he has developed into a great QB which is always mentioned amongst the best in the business, with lots of yards, wins and TDs (ala Dan Marino), but NO championships... b) A super bowl win with a journeyman QB (ala Trent Dilfer) Which one would you think they would prefer? Me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risin Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 a) Pick a 1st-rd QB, watch him though his struggling first two or three years, and then finally realize he has developed into a great QB which is always mentioned amongst the best in the business, with lots of yards, wins and TDs (ala Dan Marino), but NO championships... b) A super bowl win with a journeyman QB (ala Trent Dilfer) Which one would you think they would prefer? Me too. 548748[/snapback] Why can't you win a Super Bowl in scenario "A"? Of course I'd rather win a Super Bowl with a journeyman, but there are no guarentees. So let's go with the guy we drafted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Why can't you win a Super Bowl in scenario "A"? Of course I'd rather win a Super Bowl with a journeyman, but there are no guarentees. So let's go with the guy we drafted. 548805[/snapback] The problem is real life. The next time a QB wins an SB leading the team that picked him in the 1st round to an SB he will be the first QB to do this since Dallas chose Aikman in the first round in 1989. McNabb leading Philly to the SB and getting a loss was the first time a team even smelled the SB led by a QB they chose in the first round since McNair led the Titans there in 1999. This stat is to some extent an anomaly that it has proven to be he rule for so long, but it is an anomaly which is based upon a 1st round stud QB who is good weighing so heavily against the cap that a team like Philly could not afford to get good WRs that McNabb needed to get over the top. It was only due to the fluke of Philly obtaining a stud FA WR last year that empowered them to make the Game, but we all saw this year the meltdown that led to as Owens demanded a ton more money than his cap restrained FA deal that bought him to Philly and they melted down. Indy is interesting this year because they have made the huge cap investment to the offensive side of their game to hang onto Manning and also keep Harrison and James who play a key role in Manning being such a stud. They supplemented this O talent by having Polian who has cut some excellent deals to maintain the ST, gotten and held the best kicker in the game, and hired the best defensive HC in the game to balance out the overinvestment they had to make in Manning. The irony may be that the suicide of Dungy's son may only serve to keep this anamoly going yet another year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Brady wasn't a first rounder but he was a NE draft pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffalOhio Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Brady wasn't a first rounder but he was a NE draft pick. 548876[/snapback] Yeah, in the SIXTH round! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 The problem is real life. The next time a QB wins an SB leading the team that picked him in the 1st round to an SB he will be the first QB to do this since Dallas chose Aikman in the first round in 1989. McNabb leading Philly to the SB and getting a loss was the first time a team even smelled the SB led by a QB they chose in the first round since McNair led the Titans there in 1999. This stat is to some extent an anomaly that it has proven to be he rule for so long, but it is an anomaly which is based upon a 1st round stud QB who is good weighing so heavily against the cap that a team like Philly could not afford to get good WRs that McNabb needed to get over the top. It was only due to the fluke of Philly obtaining a stud FA WR last year that empowered them to make the Game, but we all saw this year the meltdown that led to as Owens demanded a ton more money than his cap restrained FA deal that bought him to Philly and they melted down. Indy is interesting this year because they have made the huge cap investment to the offensive side of their game to hang onto Manning and also keep Harrison and James who play a key role in Manning being such a stud. They supplemented this O talent by having Polian who has cut some excellent deals to maintain the ST, gotten and held the best kicker in the game, and hired the best defensive HC in the game to balance out the overinvestment they had to make in Manning. The irony may be that the suicide of Dungy's son may only serve to keep this anamoly going yet another year. 548859[/snapback] You should not take a RB in R1 then, either. Only two first round RBs have won a Super Bowl with the team that drafted them in the same time frame. It really shocked me that the same holds true for WRs. Only two of them have done it. Been a LOT of WRs and RBs taken in R1 since 1990, too. TEs? Two, but this one is kinda cheap considering that both are on the same Patriots team. OTs are a little better, I think there are 5 of them, but one was a total flop (Michels for GB). 1st round OGs have put up a goose egg. Cs? 1, Damien Woody. Granted, that's just a quick skimming over them, but it doesn't look like any other position offensively is much, if any better. There were five OTs, but probably 3 times as many OTs were picked in R1 as QBs. I have not looked at defense yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Our opinions dont matter, as few of us will make a decision of this importance, much less of real importance. Every player is different in their rate of development, and all we can do is be patient until Losman either develops, or the Bills give up on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Our opinions dont matter, as few of us will make a decision of this importance, much less of real importance. Every player is different in their rate of development, and all we can do is be patient until Losman either develops, or the Bills give up on him. 549174[/snapback] You are correct, of course, but that makes for an awfully boring message board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven in MD Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 The problem is real life. The next time a QB wins an SB leading the team that picked him in the 1st round to an SB he will be the first QB to do this since Dallas chose Aikman in the first round in 1989. 548859[/snapback] The following playoff teams have 1st rd picks at QB Indy Cincy Pitt Jacksonville Chicago NY Giants 6 of the 12 teams. The other 6 have QBs that were either selected in a later round by their team (2 of 12) New England TB Or a free agent pick up (4 of 12) Washington Carolina Denver Seattle There is no conclusive evidence since the other first round QBs are home right now (Brees/Rivers, Carr, Losman, Pennington, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catholic Guilt Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 We can throw any stat for our JP-bashers or our JP-apologists... Let me bring one I just made up, but that I think would be very accurate... If you could ask 100 Buffalo Bill fans what would they prefer to see in their lifetime from these: a) Pick a 1st-rd QB, watch him though his struggling first two or three years, and then finally realize he has developed into a great QB which is always mentioned amongst the best in the business, with lots of yards, wins and TDs (ala Dan Marino), but NO championships... b) A super bowl win with a journeyman QB (ala Trent Dilfer) Which one would you think they would prefer? Me too. 548748[/snapback] I'd like to see JP get the time to develop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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