After all this negativity on JP and this sudden KH

[bluv]

...that Cincy win with KH having his first and only great game as a Bill didn't have a negative effect on this team. Before this game there was a lot more fans who had a positive outlook for JP, especially since his return and play before the Pats game. Now all of a sudden a lot are questioning whether he is a bust, forgetting that he is a 2nd year starting only 8 games, can he get it done, blah,blah,blah. Before it was get him some blocking, a running game, and next year with Everett coming back a lot more people expected him to progress next year. Now its maybe we should go with KH for he has completed %68 of his passes and a 94 QB rating, forgetting that besides the Bengal game he really hasn't had much impact in those games. I mean he has played 8 games and threw 8 TD passes. With him he has been part of a blowout loss (OAK), almost let a team comeback (MIA same as JP), throws a 2 yard pass on 4th and 9 (NE); etc. But now there are questions that he might be the QB to go with next year. I'll bet if he had his typical %60 completions game with 200 yards but we still won the game there wouldn't be this discussion and we could move forward. Now if he goes out and put up 300 plus against a Jets team packing it in for the Reggie Bush Bowl then we will really have a QB controversy. I just hope if KH starts next year he plays like he did against the Bengals for I don't want to see in 2006 the KH that puts up these good looking stats but no impact, winning against average teams but no playoffs for that is what will happen he plays in 2006 like he has in his other 6-7 starts.

[ganesh]

I just hope if KH starts next year he plays like he did against the Bengals for I don't want to see in 2006 the KH that puts up these good looking stats but no impact, winning against average teams but no playoffs for that is what will happen he plays in 2006 like he has in his other 6-7 starts.

544645[/snapback]

 

I think that is exactly wat happened in Cleveland.....KH got a few games better

than Couch....then gets the starting job, but cannot keep it, because he stinks..

and the QB controversy exploded and cost Butch Davis job.

[bluv]

I think that is exactly wat happened in Cleveland.....KH got a few games better

than Couch....then gets the starting job, but cannot keep it, because he stinks..

and the QB controversy exploded and cost Butch Davis job.

544648[/snapback]

If you look at his career stats you would see a very accurate QB; after watching him play I can see why as all he does is throw checkdown passes whenever anyone gets near him. With an average team like the one he had in Cleveland he has proven that he can not be a difference maker and carry a team on his back but he can put up decent stats. That will be the case if he starts for us next year as he will complete a high percentage of passes but 80% will be off the same variety, dump offs, 5 yard passes, and 8 yards passes on 3rd and 9 while we finish as an average team. And if we do win it will not be because KH put up big numbers for he is what he is: a journeyman backup QB. I know some will say what has JP proved? Well he only has 8 starts and has proven he can make all the throws and his limitations are not physical and can be corrected with experience. Notice I said CAN be not WILL be. But if I had to win a drag race in the next 2 years I’d rather take my chances with a hot rod car that has the power but needs a lot of tuning and idling than a 4 cylinder that just runs good!

[Spiderweb]

If you look at his career stats you would see a very accurate QB; after watching him play I can see why as all he does is throw checkdown passes whenever anyone gets near him. With an average team like the one he had in Cleveland he has proven that he can not be a difference maker and carry a team on his back but he can put up decent stats. That will be the case if he starts for us next year as he will complete a high percentage of passes but 80% will be off the same variety, dump offs, 5 yard passes, and 8 yards passes on 3rd and 9 while we finish as an average team. And if we do win it will not be because KH put up big numbers for he is what he is: a journeyman backup QB. I know some will say what has JP proved? Well he only has 8 starts and has proven he can make all the throws and his limitations are not physical and can be corrected with experience. Notice I said CAN be not WILL be. But if I had to win a drag race in the next 2 years I’d rather take my chances with a hot rod car that has the power but needs a lot of tuning and idling than a 4 cylinder that just runs good!

544699[/snapback]

 

Can't say that I disagree with much (if anything) above. In Cleveland, there was a lot of internal pressure in that organization to give every opportunity to Couch to succeed. yet, when Kelly was finally given his chance, and despite a couple notable performances, he fell flat and lost the starting role. Holcomb is a solid backup, with an accurate but rag arm. As for decision making, he seems to read defenses better for sure, but those 3 yards dumpoffs on 3 and long infuriate me. Sure, once in awhile thatis the prudent thing to do, but he does it far too often for my tastes. I too cannot forget the 4th and 7 play for 2 yards against NE. That ranks right up there with our beloved former QB Drew who once threw the ball away on a 4th down play that sealed another loss under his wonderous reign.

 

Kelly is a backup, a caretaker, and could be a teacher, but he's not a great starter.

 

With the season having gone down the tubes, and with JP showing improvement up until the NE debacle (2nd NE contest), JP should have been getting the starts. If he ends up not cutting the mustard, so be it, but he needs the opportunity to play for us to find out. Kelly starting is simply a case of spinning our wheels.

[colin]

kelly doesn't take very good care of the ball either.

 

if his checkdowns aren't there he gets sacked just standing like drew used too, he drops the ball way too much and does make some bone headed plays (lateral passes out of bounds, running backwards while getting sacked, soft passes into coverage 5 yards down field etc).

 

he is great at the easy stuff, but has never been even remotely cabable of the hard stuff, JP seems to be the opposite.

 

i'll take kelly as a back up, but lets shoot TD and MM out of a cannon and get some people in who know what they are doing.

[Orton's Arm]

I'm less than pleased with the direction this thread has taken. In Oakland, the offense put up 17 points despite no running game and absolutely no offensive line whatsoever. Doesn't that say something positive about the passing game?

 

As for checkdowns, it's hard for me to believe that you can put up 300 yards on the Bengals simply by throwing for 5 yards on 3rd and 10. Holcomb has the support of his teammates, and that says a lot to me. Maybe guys who play football for a living, and who get to see Holcomb in practice every day, know a little more about him than posters on these boards.

[bluv]

I'm less than pleased with the direction this thread has taken. In Oakland, the offense put up 17 points despite no running game and absolutely no offensive line whatsoever. Doesn't that say something positive about the passing game?

 

As for checkdowns, it's hard for me to believe that you can put up 300 yards on the Bengals simply by throwing for 5 yards on 3rd and 10. Holcomb has the support of his teammates, and that says a lot to me. Maybe guys who play football for a living, and who get to see Holcomb in practice every day, know a little more about him than posters on these boards.

544782[/snapback]

So one game against a team he has put up good numbers against in the past makes him a threat all off a sudden? Just like I said a win like that will make some forget how average his play has been all season and get them caught up into stats or start bashing JP when he is only a young green QB who shouldn't be given up on. In the past 4-5 games has JP played that bad? Is KH so much better than JP that we should just build the team around him? HE!! NO!! And of course some of his team mates will support him; they got to have an excuse, someone to blame for their pitiful performance this season when they were suppose to carry JP vs the other way around. The difference is given a year or two Jp has the talent to carry this team; KH DOES NOT!!

[34-78-83]

With the season having gone down the tubes, and with JP showing improvement up until the NE debacle (2nd NE contest), JP should have been getting the starts.

544738[/snapback]

 

He would have gotten the starts if he weren't injured so that is a non-issue. The injury (occured early in the NE game) also explains why he threw wounded ducks for the rest of the game.

 

Now for this week, it appears that JP is probably healthy enough to be effective again, but has missed out on many of the starter reps. We will see what happens with the decision of which qb starts, but I do agree that JP should start as long as he is healthy.

[Alaska Darin]

I think that is exactly wat happened in Cleveland.....KH got a few games better

than Couch....then gets the starting job, but cannot keep it, because he stinks..

and the QB controversy exploded and cost Butch Davis job.

544648[/snapback]

In Cleveland Holcomb played on an offense that had no players that would've started in Buffalo THIS year. He didn't lose the starting job because he stunk, he lost it because he got hurt. Their offensive line was the worst I've ever seen.

 

Davis lost his job because they continued to ignore their offensive line and literally missed every first day draft choice (except Jeff Faine) for five straight seasons.

 

But we can pretend if you want.

[Orton's Arm]

In Cleveland Holcomb played on an offense that had no players that would've started in Buffalo THIS year.  He didn't lose the starting job because he stunk, he lost it because he got hurt.  Their offensive line was the worst I've ever seen.

 

Davis lost his job because they continued to ignore their offensive line and literally missed every first day draft choice (except Jeff Faine) for five straight seasons.

 

But we can pretend if you want.

544830[/snapback]

An excellent post.

 

In 2003 (when Holcomb was a starter in Cleveland), his QB rating was a Bledsoe-like 74.6. Not terrible, but certainly below average. But prior to that year, he'd had only three starts. If Losman is allowed to look bad due to lack of experience, why not Holcomb?

 

Since then, Holcomb has improved. His QB ratings for 2004 and 2005 are 96.8 and 92.9. Those aren't the ratings of a journeyman. But many people see a journeyman anyway, because that's what they expect to see.

[bluv]

An excellent post.

 

In 2003 (when Holcomb was a starter in Cleveland), his QB rating was a Bledsoe-like 74.6. Not terrible, but certainly below average. But prior to that year, he'd had only three starts. If Losman is allowed to look bad due to lack of experience, why not Holcomb?

 

Since then, Holcomb has improved. His QB ratings for 2004 and 2005 are 96.8 and 92.9. Those aren't the ratings of a journeyman. But many people see a journeyman anyway, because that's what they expect to see.

544861[/snapback]

You look at stats: I will look at play. KH is not as good as his numbers say; Jp is not as bad as his say. JP has more talent than KH. WHile JP runs around, avoids sacks, and throws the ball out of bounds, KH after 3 secs in the pocket looks to checkdown and for stats sack will never throw the ball away. How can anybody who has watched all the games this year not see the difference in talent level and potential between these two? And if KH was soo much better I'd be on his bandwagon but he is an average QB with average skills who besides completion percentage has average stats.

[Alaska Darin]

You look at stats: I will look at play. KH is not as good as his numbers say; Jp is not as bad as his say. JP has more talent than KH. WHile JP runs around, avoids sacks, and throws the ball out of bounds, KH after 3 secs in the pocket looks to checkdown and for stats sack will never throw the ball away. How can anybody who has watched all the games this year not see the difference in talent level and potential between these two? And if KH was soo much better I'd be on his bandwagon but he is an average QB with average skills who besides completion percentage has average stats.

544878[/snapback]

That's alright. You're a below average poster with below average cognitive reasoning yet we haven't benched you yet.

[Orton's Arm]

You look at stats: I will look at play. KH is not as good as his numbers say; Jp is not as bad as his say. JP has more talent than KH. WHile JP runs around, avoids sacks, and throws the ball out of bounds, KH after 3 secs in the pocket looks to checkdown and for stats sack will never throw the ball away. How can anybody who has watched all the games this year not see the difference in talent level and potential between these two? And if KH was soo much better I'd be on his bandwagon but he is an average QB with average skills who besides completion percentage has average stats.

544878[/snapback]

Look at production. When Holcomb has played from start to finish, the Bills have never scored fewer than 16 points. In 2005, Patriots have twice been held to 16 points, and twice been held to 17. Holcomb's passer rating for the year--92.9--is similar to Brady's of 93.0. With Holcomb under center, the Bills have averaged 22.3 points per game. With Brady under center, the 2005 Patriots have averaged 23.5 points per game.

 

And it's not like Holcomb is surrounded by worlds of offensive talent. There is no offensive line, the running game is often absent, and the playcalling is sometimes questionable. Despite these and other problems, the Bills produce points at a Patriots-like level when Holcomb is taking the snaps. I fail to see the problem with having Holcomb under center.

[Johnny]

Look at production. When Holcomb has played from start to finish, the Bills have never scored fewer than 16 points. In 2005, Patriots have twice been held to 16 points, and twice been held to 17. Holcomb's passer rating for the year--92.9--is similar to Brady's of 93.0. With Holcomb under center, the Bills have averaged 22.3 points per game. With Brady under center, the 2005 Patriots have averaged 23.5 points per game.

 

And it's not like Holcomb is surrounded by worlds of offensive talent. There is no offensive line, the running game is often absent, and the playcalling is sometimes questionable. Despite these and other problems, the Bills produce points at a Patriots-like level when Holcomb is taking the snaps. I fail to see the problem with having Holcomb under center.

544920[/snapback]

lol...patriot like level.....the patsie troll is present

[Orton's Arm]

lol...patriot like level.....the patsie troll is present

544929[/snapback]

Yeah, a LOT of Patriots fans have pro-Holcomb sigs.

[Johnny]

Is this your way of saying the Bills should aspire to a Jets-like level of point production? 

544943[/snapback]

 

certainly not ...but if youre going to aim, aim high......like Indianapolis, Denver, Pittsburgh, or Seattle

[MDH]

I'm less than pleased with the direction this thread has taken. In Oakland, the offense put up 17 points despite no running game and absolutely no offensive line whatsoever. Doesn't that say something positive about the passing game?

 

As for checkdowns, it's hard for me to believe that you can put up 300 yards on the Bengals simply by throwing for 5 yards on 3rd and 10. Holcomb has the support of his teammates, and that says a lot to me. Maybe guys who play football for a living, and who get to see Holcomb in practice every day, know a little more about him than posters on these boards.

544782[/snapback]

 

Or maybe they're willing to accept the known commodity of a below average QB rather than risking a season while waiting for JP to come around (if he ever does). These guys don't want to wait to win but I wouldn't take their backing of Holcomb to mean that they think the guy is anything more than he is: A below average QB that doesn't bring much to the table. As a fan I'd rather roll the dice with JP than go with Check Down though I can understand why the vets on the team don’t want to roll the dice.

[meazza]

An excellent post.

 

In 2003 (when Holcomb was a starter in Cleveland), his QB rating was a Bledsoe-like 74.6. Not terrible, but certainly below average. But prior to that year, he'd had only three starts. If Losman is allowed to look bad due to lack of experience, why not Holcomb?

 

Since then, Holcomb has improved. His QB ratings for 2004 and 2005 are 96.8 and 92.9. Those aren't the ratings of a journeyman. But many people see a journeyman anyway, because that's what they expect to see.

544861[/snapback]

 

4th & 7 in NE territory, Holcomb completes 3 yard pass to Josh Reed... Game Over.

That is not what i expect to see from a 11 year veteran in the nfl.

Same as Drew Bledsoe. Play of the game, takes the snap, voila, Steelers LB grabs it from him and runs back for a TD.

 

I've seen some pretty crappy QB's in the short time I've been watching football but I refuse to accept this level of play.

[MDH]

His QB ratings for 2004 and 2005 are 96.8 and 92.9. Those aren't the ratings of a journeyman. But many people see a journeyman anyway, because that's what they expect to see.

544861[/snapback]

 

Rob Johnson's career QB rating is 83.6. Kelly Holcomb's is 81.4.

 

Stats don't tell the story, one has to watch the games to understand the value of a player. I've seen enough of the guy to know that he's not what I want in a QB.

[WVUFootball29]

In Cleveland Holcomb played on an offense that had no players that would've started in Buffalo THIS year.  He didn't lose the starting job because he stunk, he lost it because he got hurt.  Their offensive line was the worst I've ever seen.

 

Davis lost his job because they continued to ignore their offensive line and literally missed every first day draft choice (except Jeff Faine) for five straight seasons.

 

But we can pretend if you want.

544830[/snapback]

 

 

AD our line is just as bad and already got him knocked silly a couple times this year...If he starts fulltime behind this line, it'll be Cleveland all over again.

 

Think of it this way...either way we are putting all our faith into an unproven QB (KH has shown me no proof that he can bring this team to the playoffs, i.e. NE game 1 choking in the clutch) One is 33 and the other is 25 next season, I dont see what good it is going to do if we give the reigns to KH, let him start 2 maybe 3 seasons, then draft another QB and go through all this mess again???

 

If anyone thought this team was a playoff contender this year with either QB at the helm, well you could also tell me the flavor of Kool-Aid that TD was serving. but there is no need to set this team back 3 more years because we might have a slightly better chance of winning 3 more games with KH than JPL. I think it is a ludicrous idea to give up on a QB after his first 8 unconsecutive starts in this league, especially for a guy who hasn't done much of anything in 9 seasons.