Profiles in Christianity

[SilverNRed]

The problem with what you're saying (and the point of this story), SilverNRed, is that it doesn't take an 'America full of racists' to persecute Blacks or Indians or Philipinos or whomever... All it takes is a few people here and there, (maybe without them even knowing it) doing things like I've brought up in my two anecdotal examples, and a larger group of people that either don't or won't see the problems that this (relatively) small amount of people cause...

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Of course, the problem with this is that you're judging the group by the actions of a few. Isn't that where stereotypes (including racial stereotypes) come from?

 

We could probably scoop together a few anecdotes the portray just about every minority negatively. Would that be fair?

[jjamie12]

Of course, the problem with this is that you're judging the group by the actions of a few.  Isn't that where stereotypes (including racial stereotypes) come from?

 

We could probably scoop together a few anecdotes the portray just about every minority negatively.  Would that be fair?

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I'm not sure what your point is here... My point is that it doesn't take an America full of racists (which it most assuredly is not) to hold down and persecute a group of people in some way. ie: a few bad apples can spoil the bunch... I don't believe I'm stereotyping or judging any group... Could you elaborate?

[olivier in france]

I have a buddy here in Ithaca, NY that goes to the Business School at Cornell with me.  He's a black fellow, about 6'3" 250 lbs... Needless to say, he sticks out like a sore thumb here.  He is a graduate of Colgate University, and is a really great guy; fun, good-natured and good-hearted... He's also fabulously wealthy.  He's a co-owner of a venture capital firm that has something like $100 million under management.

 

Anyhow... He drives some type of Jaguar.  Now, I'm no gearhead, and don't know what the name of this particular vehicle is, but I CAN tell you that this is a very, very, nice ride.  In any case, he's been in Ithaca since September and has been pulled over 4 times.  He's never been issued a ticket.  He's been pulled over because he was 'driving too slow' and because he 'looked lost'.  Of course, the first thing that the police officers do when they get to the window is to ask the question, "Who's car is this?" which is surprising because if someone looked lost, I would probably ask them if they needed directions or something.  Anyway, I don't think that their concern was the 'slow driving' or the 'lost lookingness' of this guy.

 

The problem with what you're saying (and the point of this story), SilverNRed, is that it doesn't take an 'America full of racists' to persecute Blacks or Indians or Philipinos or whomever... All it takes is a few people here and there, (maybe without them even knowing it) doing things like I've brought up in my two anecdotal examples, and a larger group of people that either don't or won't see the problems that this (relatively) small amount of people cause... Instead, they spend time on message boards, saying that the problems are minimal, Black people being poor is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and generally minimizing the difficulties that Black people have to deal with in these United States.

 

I happen to agree with you on one thing... I think that people like Rev.'s Sharpton and Jackson have probably done more harm than good for their people by playing racial politics in cases where there probably was no race case to be made.  However, what you're doing, by minimizing the impact of prejudice, and, to a lesser degree, racism in our society, is just as bad as sensationalizing race problems...

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great post Jjamie!

i could not agree more with that!

by the way what do you do in Antwerp? my company has one of its major warehouse there and maybe i'll visit it soon... maybe we can plan an "exiled Bills fan dinner"?!!

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

I have a buddy here in Ithaca, NY that goes to the Business School at Cornell with me.  He's a black fellow, about 6'3" 250 lbs... Needless to say, he sticks out like a sore thumb here.  He is a graduate of Colgate University, and is a really great guy; fun, good-natured and good-hearted... He's also fabulously wealthy.  He's a co-owner of a venture capital firm that has something like $100 million under management.

 

Anyhow... He drives some type of Jaguar.  Now, I'm no gearhead, and don't know what the name of this particular vehicle is, but I CAN tell you that this is a very, very, nice ride.  In any case, he's been in Ithaca since September and has been pulled over 4 times.  He's never been issued a ticket.  He's been pulled over because he was 'driving too slow' and because he 'looked lost'.  Of course, the first thing that the police officers do when they get to the window is to ask the question, "Who's car is this?" which is surprising because if someone looked lost, I would probably ask them if they needed directions or something.  Anyway, I don't think that their concern was the 'slow driving' or the 'lost lookingness' of this guy.

 

The problem with what you're saying (and the point of this story), SilverNRed, is that it doesn't take an 'America full of racists' to persecute Blacks or Indians or Philipinos or whomever... All it takes is a few people here and there, (maybe without them even knowing it) doing things like I've brought up in my two anecdotal examples, and a larger group of people that either don't or won't see the problems that this (relatively) small amount of people cause... Instead, they spend time on message boards, saying that the problems are minimal, Black people being poor is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and generally minimizing the difficulties that Black people have to deal with in these United States.

 

I happen to agree with you on one thing... I think that people like Rev.'s Sharpton and Jackson have probably done more harm than good for their people by playing racial politics in cases where there probably was no race case to be made.  However, what you're doing, by minimizing the impact of prejudice, and, to a lesser degree, racism in our society, is just as bad as sensationalizing race problems...

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I shared this vignette with some of my South African friends. They're highly amused at the idea that someone who's "oppressed" is driving a friggin' Jaguar.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I shared this vignette with some of my South African friends.  They're highly amused at the idea that someone who's "oppressed" is driving a friggin' Jaguar.

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True enough, but a white guy driving the same Jaguar is unlikely to be pulled over needlessly. There is a bit of a stigma in our society still that a black man with riches has not earned them legally.

 

I think we've rightly eliminated most of the brutal aspects of racism in this country, but it's been traded for that harder-to-fight racism that lives in everyone who fears difference -- and I think that lies in all of us to an extent. It's also something that's encoded in pop culture and upbringing and the things that surround us daily. And I don't think it's limited to white-on-black racism; there are preconceived notions that every race or ethnicity has about another. It's in everyone's best interests to look at the person and their actions first and the skin color or ethnicity far down the line.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

But while fear can breed oppression, they're still not the same thing, as some people (not you) want to pretend.

 

You nailed it there, Tom. Systematic racism IMO has been eliminated from this country. Individual racism may not have, but that's OK with me. People are allowed to have their own opinions, no matter how outre they are.

[Mickey]

I shared this vignette with some of my South African friends.  They're highly amused at the idea that someone who's "oppressed" is driving a friggin' Jaguar.

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Certainly there is some irony there but at the same time, just because he is driving a jaguar doesn't mean he has forfeited any right to be upset that he is getting pulled over repeatedly for no reason.

 

Apart from anecdotes such as this, the stats show that crimes motivated by race, including black against white as well as white against black are not insignificant. These are stats where the racism was bad enough that it was actually criminal. I don't think it is a stretch to conclude that most racsim, as bad as it is, doesn't rise to the level of criminality and so does not show up in those stats.

 

I am pulling the numbers together to see what they say but I haven't had the time finish it yet. Later.

[X. Benedict]

Systematic racism IMO has been eliminated from this country. Individual racism may not have, but that's OK with me. People are allowed to have their own opinions, no matter how outre they are.

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Do you really believe that of all policies and practices in this country, private and public, that there are none that have a disproportionately negative impact on minorities?

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

True enough, but a white guy driving the same Jaguar is unlikely to be pulled over needlessly.  There is a bit of a stigma in our society still that a black man with riches has not earned them legally.

 

But is that oppression or simply racism? While the racism certainly exists whereby people look suspiciously at the black man driving a luxury car (and I'm not disputing it happens - it happens to freinds of mine not infrequently), there are equally certainly legal protections in place that keep blacks from being oppressed so that they can't purchase luxury cars.

 

And I have never - never - heard or seen any sort of stigma in our society that even implies a black man who has money can't have earned it legally. My rather well-off black acquaintances (of whom I have a few) have never heard of it either. That's largely crap - and the degree to which it does exist is due far less to race than it is socio-economic stratification: my acquaintences and I move in middle class circles where any sort of wealth is presumed to be rightfully earned regardless of race. That race plays a part in socio-economic stratification, however, is stipulated...but the degree to which it does is so arguable that I won't even begin to discuss it if anyone tries. I've got better windmills to tilt at.

 

I think we've rightly eliminated most of the brutal aspects of racism in this country, but it's been traded for that harder-to-fight racism that lives in everyone who fears difference -- and I think that lies in all of us to an extent.  It's also something that's encoded in pop culture and upbringing and the things that surround us daily.  And I don't think it's limited to white-on-black racism; there are preconceived notions that every race or ethnicity has about another.  It's in everyone's best interests to look at the person and their actions first and the skin color or ethnicity far down the line.

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True enough...add mental illness (Lord knows I've been discriminated against for being bipolar - and in ways that, were the same decisions made based on skin color, would be violations of federal law), physical handicap, religion, and what have you. People fear difference. The French fear it in Algerian immigrants; we fear it in inner-city blacks. But while fear can breed oppression, they're still not the same thing, as some people (not you) want to pretend.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Certainly there is some irony there but at the same time, just because he is driving a jaguar doesn't mean he has forfeited any right to be upset that he is getting pulled over repeatedly for no reason.

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I didn't say that. (Hell, I'm upset by it.)

 

But what we were talking about was not racism, but the "oppression" of minorities in this country. Someone please explain to me how the minority I, as a pasty-white upper-middle class caucasian male, am "oppressing" is driving a nicer !@#$ing car than I am.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Do you really believe that of all policies and practices in this country, private and public, that there are none that have a disproportionately negative impact on minorities?

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Well, I suppose you could say Affirmative Action is a racist policy.

[X. Benedict]

Well, I suppose you could say Affirmative Action is a racist policy.

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When individual prejudices are not checked within the system, that is not

systemic, such as in the judicial legal system? If you can prove empirically that

first time black offenders are sentenced to more jail time that white first time offenders, is that not a systemic problem?

 

I don't know, but it seems that denial of any systemic racism would preclude any such facts should they exist. (and I don't know if they do, but suspect they might)

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

When individual prejudices are not checked within the system, that is not

systemic, such as in the judicial legal system? If you can prove empirically that

first time black offenders are sentenced to more jail time that white first time offenders, is that not a systemic problem?

 

I don't know, but it seems that denial of any systemic racism would preclude any such facts should they exist. (and I don't know if they do, but suspect they might)

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I think that many such statistics are anecdotal rather than scientific, and that's the problem. Anecdotal evidence only serves to stir irrational emotion rather than factual investigation...

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

When individual prejudices are not checked within the system, that is not

systemic, such as in the judicial legal system? If you can prove empirically that

first time black offenders are sentenced to more jail time that white first time offenders, is that not a systemic problem?

 

I don't know, but it seems that denial of any systemic racism would preclude any such facts should they exist. (and I don't know if they do, but suspect they might)

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I think that confuses "systematic" with "societal". It is not built into the justice system (i.e. it is not systemic) that black first-timers get harsher sentences than white first-timers. Rather, it is a reflection of societal mores in this country in general. "Systemic" implies a legal structure designed with bias inherent...such as Nazi racial laws, for example, or apartheid, or Afghanistan under the Taleban.

[X. Benedict]

I think that many such statistics are anecdotal rather than scientific, and that's the problem. Anecdotal evidence only serves to stir irrational emotion rather than factual investigation...

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Saying that systemic racism (or anything esle for that matter) doesn't exist is an enormous claim (It's the Aristotelean in me). To say that there is no systemic racism is to say that there is no racism that is institutional such as in our Federal, State, County, and City governments, our Churches, Universities, the NCAA, Professional Sports, etc...

 

To say it is no longer as prevalent as it once was is another matter.

[jjamie12]

I didn't say that.  (Hell, I'm upset by it.)

 

But what we were talking about was not racism, but the "oppression" of minorities in this country.  Someone please explain to me how the minority I, as a pasty-white upper-middle class caucasian male, am "oppressing" is driving a nicer !@#$ing car than I am.

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I don't believe that anyone here said that all white people are oppressing all minorities. Clearly, CTM, you (or anyone else, for that matter) are not 'oppressing' my friend. Just as clearly, though, there are *some* white people oppressing *some* black people in their own way. Is the racist manager who is responsible for hiring people in his department 'oppressing' black people? In some small way, he is, even if that person gets a job somewhere else. The problem is looking the other way and not recognizing that this goes on. Those 'small ways' can add up to some pretty large problems if we aren't willing to recognize them.

 

There have been studies done wherein people submit the same resume for a job, the only difference being that one has a 'black' sounding name, and the other has a 'white' sounding name. Of course, the 'white' sounding name received many more interview opportunities than the 'black' one. Does this mean that all of those people are racists? Probably not. Are black people being oppressed by this? Probably. It is undeniably more difficult, in general, for black people to rise to the same socio-econoomic strata as white people with the same abilities, qualifications, and background... and that is what oppression is, isn't it? Don't we all just want everyone to have a fair shake?

 

Most people aren't racists. Everyone is prejudiced in some way, by definition. It is important for people to understand their own prejudices, because you might be doing yourself, your company, your children a disservice by giving up possible friendships that could enrich your life, not hiring workers that could make your company profitable, or passing on certain tendencies to your children because you aren't aware that you are excluding certain people from your life. And that's a shame.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

I don't believe that anyone here said that all white people are oppressing all minorities. 

 

Olivier did. That's what started all this. While your example is a very good one of racism in this country, it doesn't even BEGIN to demonstrate (and you didn't say it did, I know) olivier's observation that blacks are "oppressed" in the US.

 

Clearly, CTM, you (or anyone else, for that matter) are not 'oppressing' my friend.  Just as clearly, though, there are *some* white people oppressing *some* black people in their own way.  Is the racist manager who is responsible for hiring people in his department 'oppressing' black people?  In some small way, he is, even if that person gets a job somewhere else.  The problem is looking the other way and not recognizing that this goes on.  Those 'small ways' can add up to some pretty large problems if we aren't willing to recognize them. 

 

There have been studies done wherein people submit the same resume for a job, the only difference being that one has a 'black' sounding name, and the other has a 'white' sounding name.  Of course, the 'white' sounding name received many more interview opportunities than the 'black' one.  Does this mean that all of those people are racists?  Probably not.  Are black people being oppressed by this?  Probably.  It is undeniably more difficult, in general, for black people to rise to the same socio-econoomic strata as white people with the same abilities, qualifications, and background... and that is what oppression is, isn't it?  Don't we all just want everyone to have a fair shake?

 

Most people aren't racists.  Everyone is prejudiced in some way, by definition.  It is important for people to understand their own prejudices, because you might be doing yourself, your company, your children a disservice by giving up possible friendships that could enrich your life,  not hiring workers that could make your company profitable, or passing on certain tendencies to your children because you aren't aware that you are excluding certain people from your life.  And that's a shame.

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All true. As RunTheDamnBall said, people fear difference...when they aren't simply ignorant, like my parents. "Oh, I hope those blacks don't buy the house behind us...all the drugs and wild parties..."

[Mickey]

I didn't say that.  (Hell, I'm upset by it.)

 

But what we were talking about was not racism, but the "oppression" of minorities in this country.  Someone please explain to me how the minority I, as a pasty-white upper-middle class caucasian male, am "oppressing" is driving a nicer !@#$ing car than I am.

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The quality of your car may not be the sole measure of "oppression". If the guy owns a great car but can't enjoy it becasue every time he gets behind the wheel he gets pulled over by the police for no good reason, isn't he "oppressed" compared to a white guy with the same care who can drive it all he wants without a problem? Certainly, it is not "oppression" on a par with what many others have to endure in different places and in different circumstances.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

The quality of your car may not be the sole measure of "oppression".  If the guy owns a great car but can't enjoy it becasue every time he gets behind the wheel he gets pulled over by the police for no good reason, isn't he "oppressed" compared to a white guy with the same care who can drive it all he wants without a problem?  Certainly, it is not "oppression" on a par with what many others have to endure in different places and in different circumstances.

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So "oppression" is a relative term now?

[Alaska Darin]

Do you really believe that of all policies and practices in this country, private and public, that there are none that have a disproportionately negative impact on minorities?

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Probably a similiar number to those that affect the majority. The biggest effect these laws have is creating the "we deserve something for nothing" ideology that pervades such a large portion of the less fortunate.

 

Today on the radio a woman was complaining because she now has to pay a small amount for her children's medicade. She works, her husband works and they have four children. Her exact statement was: "They base it on how much money we make but they don't take into account our expenses. It used to be FREE."

 

I wish I had been the radio host. I would have explained to her that it was NEVER free. Her neighbors have been working to pay for it. They don't take into account YOUR expenses? What about everyone who has been subsidizing YOUR family?