Profiles in Christianity

[olivier in france]

Please enlighten us as to how blacks are persecuted in the United States.

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Only if you toldl me how muslims are persecuted in France...

 

Fact is the issues are exactly the same, while the two governments are supposed to guarantee equality among its citizens, Muslims in France and Blacks in America have to deal much more in their everyday lives with discrimination, poverty, low access to education and crime than the rest of the population.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

140 years after the end of slavery the integration into main stream America of its black minority is still a total failure. At least France has failed for only 30 years.

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That's a WEE bit of an exaggeration there, Ollie.

 

As a nation we've enacted just about every kind of imaginable law to assist black people in raising themselves up into the mainstream. Almost all of them have been failures. Why? Because they don't address individual initiative.

 

Also, I think there's a lot to be said for black leaders not wishing true integration because at that point they'd be out of a job. The goals of the NAACP and other civil-rights organizations have changed over the past 40 years from wanting a true equal footing to wanting the very thing they fought against so many years ago---SEPARATE but EQUAL status.

 

When you look at other cultural minorities in the US (for instance, Asians and Hispanics), you find a much different story. A quick walk through the inner-city of my local city finds a wealth of Hispanic-owned businesses and services. You also see many Indian and east-asian-owned shops as well.

 

These minorities get it, whereas many African Americans don't. To succeed in America, you MUST do it yourself. You can't rely on the government or the banks or other people to help you. You have to do it yourself and you have to want it bad enough.

[olivier in france]

That's a WEE bit of an exaggeration there, Ollie.

 

As a nation we've enacted just about every kind of imaginable law to assist black people in raising themselves up into the mainstream. Almost all of them have been failures. Why? Because they don't address individual initiative.

 

Also, I think there's a lot to be said for black leaders not wishing true integration because at that point they'd be out of a job. The goals of the NAACP and other civil-rights organizations have changed over the past 40 years from wanting a true equal footing to wanting the very thing they fought against so many years ago---SEPARATE but EQUAL status.

 

When you look at other cultural minorities in the US (for instance, Asians and Hispanics), you find a much different story. A quick walk through the inner-city of my local city finds a wealth of Hispanic-owned businesses and services. You also see many Indian and east-asian-owned shops as well.

 

These minorities get it, whereas many African Americans don't. To succeed in America, you MUST do it yourself. You can't rely on the government or the banks or other people to help you. You have to do it yourself and you have to want it bad enough.

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I know JSP but what you say about the black minority, its leaders and the specific problems thay have compared with other minorities is very similar to what France has to deal with with its muslim (mainly north african) minority. France has done a lot (financially, legally...)for that specific community and it has not worked while it has worked for others (chinese, italians, spaniards, eastern europeans, portuguese...)

We have not find a solution yet as America has not found yet a solution for its black minority.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

140 years after the end of slavery the integration into main stream America of its black minority is still a total failure.

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And you base this on what?

 

I think that statement is pure and utter horseshit. I base that on the fact that I actually live in mainstream America.

[olivier in france]

And you base this on what?

 

I think that statement is pure and utter horseshit.  I base that on the fact that I actually live in mainstream America.

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well it's easy to find a "base" on this! Just check who is under the poverty level in the USA, what is the less educated minority, what community is the most often victim of crime... Go in any american inner city and open your eyes, mainstream America is not black.

[SilverNRed]

Only if you toldl me how muslims are persecuted in France...

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I never said they were. Next.

 

Fact is the issues are exactly the same, while the two governments are supposed to guarantee equality among its citizens, Muslims in France and Blacks in America have to deal much more in their everyday lives with discrimination, poverty, low access to education and crime than the rest of the population.

Fact is: blacks are not persecuted in America. No one is going out of their way to hold them down. And if they are held to different standards, those standards are usually lower thanks to crap like affirmitive action which helps feed the victim mentality.

 

Immigrants and other ethnic groups are succeeding because they're taking control of their lives rather than whining about how bad things are for them. Not to mention the complete collapse of traditional families in black culture, where most children are born out of wedlock.

 

Then again, I actually live in America....

[olivier in france]

I never said they were.  Next.

 

Fact is: blacks are not persecuted in America.  No one is going out of their way to hold them down.  And if they are held to different standards, those standards are usually lower thanks to crap like affirmitive action which helps feed the victim mentality.

 

Immigrants and other ethnic groups are succeeding because they're taking control of their lives rather than whining about how bad things are for them.  Not to mention the complete collapse of traditional families in black culture, where most children are born out of wedlock.

 

Then again, I actually live in America....

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i never said they were either. Only JSP said some people were persecuted...

Otherwise we more or less share the same views... The muslim minority in France has basically the same issues and peculiarities than the black one in the US

 

Then again i actually live in France ...

[Mickey]

I never said they were.  Next.

 

Fact is: blacks are not persecuted in America.  No one is going out of their way to hold them down.  And if they are held to different standards, those standards are usually lower thanks to crap like affirmitive action which helps feed the victim mentality.

 

Immigrants and other ethnic groups are succeeding because they're taking control of their lives rather than whining about how bad things are for them.  Not to mention the complete collapse of traditional families in black culture, where most children are born out of wedlock.

 

Then again, I actually live in America....

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Where was I when racism was defeated in the United States? How did I miss that party? Was their a declaration or something, sort of a VOR DAY, "Victory over Racism"?

 

Maybe you mean something besides "racism" when you speak of their being "no persecution"?

[SilverNRed]

Where was I when racism was defeated in the United States?  How did I miss that party?  Was their a declaration or something, sort of a VOR DAY, "Victory over Racism"?

 

Maybe you mean something besides "racism" when you speak of their being "no persecution"?

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Are you trying to tell me that racism and persecution are the same thing? I think of persecution as systematically trying to hold people down. Racism is someone's own issues with other groups of people and it's definitely not just a "white on black" thing.

 

Racism is going to exist until the end of time. Your fictional VOR Day (ha ha, so funny, send it to Letterman) will never take place. As a whole, however, this country doesn't hold any group down.

[Mickey]

Are you trying to tell me that racism and persecution are the same thing?  I think of persecution as systematically trying to hold people down.  Racism is someone's own issues with other groups of people and it's definitely not just a "white on black" thing.

 

Racism is going to exist until the end of time.  Your fictional VOR Day (ha ha, so funny, send it to Letterman) will never take place.  As a whole, however, this country doesn't hold any group down.

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That is why I asked because certainly, I see little difference between "persecution" and the effects of racism. Racism isn't limited to white on black but historically, that has been the type of racism most troubling in this country. There was that whole slavery thing, Jim Crow, etc. Racism isn't limited to individuals either such as country clubs that will not allow black members or schools like Bob Jones University. Whether a person is held down "systematically", whatever that means, or in some other way doesn't change the fact that they are just as held down. If your distinction is one being made between what a government does and what people do, fine. Again however, the result is the same though the solution would be different.

[OnTheRocks]

well it's easy to find a "base" on this! Just check who is under the poverty level in the USA, what is the less educated minority, what community is the most often victim of crime... Go in any american inner city and open your eyes, mainstream America is not black.

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this isn't an issue with race in America. it is an issue with something called "lazy". and it doesn't discriminate.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

well it's easy to find a "base" on this! Just check who is under the poverty level in the USA, what is the less educated minority, what community is the most often victim of crime... Go in any american inner city and open your eyes, mainstream America is not black.

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And how many American inner cities have you been in?

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

That is why I asked because certainly, I see little difference between "persecution" and the effects of racism.  Racism isn't limited to white on black but historically, that has been the type of racism most troubling in this country. 

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Sure. Just ask the nearest Native American.

[SilverNRed]

That is why I asked because certainly, I see little difference between "persecution" and the effects of racism.  Racism isn't limited to white on black but historically, that has been the type of racism most troubling in this country.  There was that whole slavery thing, Jim Crow, etc.  Racism isn't limited to individuals either such as country clubs that will not allow black members or schools like Bob Jones University.  Whether a person is held down "systematically", whatever that means, or in some other way doesn't change the fact that they are just as held down.  If your distinction is one being made between what a government does and what people do, fine.  Again however, the result is the same though the solution would be different.

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I think the race factor in this country is way overblown. I don't think racists are running around subverting opportunities for non-whites. What percentage of people in this country would you say are racist?

[Mickey]

Sure.  Just ask the nearest Native American. 

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I stand corrected, White on __________ racism has been the most troubling, historically, in this country, with the blank representing all the groups, races, etc. that whites have discriminated against, enslaved, killed, lynched, wrongfully imprisoned, etc. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Mickey]

I think the race factor in this country is way overblown.  I don't think racists are running around subverting opportunities for non-whites.  What percentage of people in this country would you say are racist?

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What is that assessment, that there are no racists subverting opportunities for non-whites, based on? Are you speaking from your personal experience or from some objective study? Both?

[Mickey]

this isn't an issue with race in America.  it is an issue with something called "lazy".  and it doesn't discriminate.

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I don't want to put words in your mouth but it sounds like you are saying "all poor people are lazy..." since this is in response to a comment about blacks living under the poverty level or whatever it is he said. Is that what you meant to say?

[SilverNRed]

What is that assessment, that there are no racists subverting opportunities for non-whites, based on?  Are you speaking from your personal experience or from some objective study?  Both?

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Personal experience and common sense. The vast majority of the people I've met in my life are not racist. And I have a hard time believing all the old white business men are emailing each other trying to find ways to keep black people out of the offices in their building. Anyone with a double digit IQ has more important things to worry about while running their company - like turning a profit, for example.

 

Again, what percentage of Americans do you think are racist?

[OnTheRocks]

I don't want to put words in your mouth but it sounds like you are saying "all poor people are lazy..." since this is in response to a comment about blacks living under the poverty level or whatever it is he said.  Is that what you meant to say?

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no. the original post was claiming that Poverty was an issue of race.

I was saying poverty was an issue of "lazy".

 

are all people living in poverty lazy? no.

are some? abso-damn-lutely.

are most? i don't know that percentages....but if i were a gambling man, i would say most have mutiple reasons for being in poverty. one reason is "lazy".

 

are you saying that people that live below the poverty level aren't lazy?

 

I am sure you would have to agree that the answer is "yes...some people in poverty are lazy".

 

That is when I would pull a "Mickey" and say.....Ah-haa...so you are saying Blacks in poverty are lazy.

[Mickey]

Personal experience and common sense.  The vast majority of the people I've met in my life are not racist.  And I have a hard time believing all the old white business men are emailing each other trying to find ways to keep black people out of the offices in their building.  Anyone with a double digit IQ has more important things to worry about while running their company - like turning a profit, for example.

 

Again, what percentage of Americans do you think are racist?

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I have no idea what the percentage is.

 

I appreciate your personal observations but they are just that. I too have had made personal observations to the contrary. I have known a number of racists in my life but almost none who thought they were. I had a boss once who very seriously believed that black people were inferior and he could prove it, he once said, because "all the good inventions were invented by white people." He didn't think he was a racist at all.

 

As for common sense, doesn't it also seem to be common sense that racism need not be by committee or conspiracy to be significant? The guy doing the hiring, the guy deciding on whether or not to issue a loan, etc., that is all it takes, no e-mails necessary.

 

The days of lynchings are not ancient history. Racists in America didn't all go to bed one night and awake the next completely reborn. That kind of thinking is not going to just vanish. White Power groups are on the fringes but their numbers are surprisingly large.

 

This is really where right and left disagree on race. One side sees racism as over and done with, the other doesn't. Blacks themselves, who if their is significant racism out there experience it first hand, clearly see it as a major problem.