Albany,n.y. Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 In 2003 the 4-7 Bills won consecutive home games against the NYG & the NYJ, boosting their record to 6-7 in a futile effort to save a coaching staff before losing their final 3 games to finish 6-10. If the Bills had just lost 1 of those 2 NY games they would have finished 5-11. The 1 game cost the Bills at least 2 positions in the draft. That year, the difference was that had the Bills lost just one more game, they would have drafted Ben Roethlisberger and we wouldn't have the QB controversy that will exist into next season, and we might be a team on the rise, close to Super Bowl contention. So as we celebrate the win against the Bengals, lets just hope we don't rue the day we beat the Bengals (and probably the Jets this Sunday) years from now. Because that one extra win in 2003 altered this team's history for a few years at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 In 2003 the 4-7 Bills won consecutive home games against the NYG & the NYJ, boosting their record to 6-7 in a futile effort to save a coaching staff before losing their final 3 games to finish 6-10. If the Bills had just lost 1 of those 2 NY games they would have finished 5-11. The 1 game cost the Bills at least 2 positions in the draft. That year, the difference was that had the Bills lost just one more game, they would have drafted Ben Roethlisberger and we wouldn't have the QB controversy that will exist into next season, and we might be a team on the rise, close to Super Bowl contention. So as we celebrate the win against the Bengals, lets just hope we don't rue the day we beat the Bengals (and probably the Jets this Sunday) years from now. Because that one extra win in 2003 altered this team's history for a few years at best. 542990[/snapback] Ugh...Thanks for reminding me... I know Pro Teams are not going to go out and try to lose Games...But I don't think there is any question that MM is trying to save his Job right now, and there certainly can be an argument made that it's not the best thing for the Team in the long run...I'm not saying MM should not be Coaching to win...he should...But not playing JP? I mean what good is that doing the Bills long term? I don't know...it's another messed up situation, in a messed up year, for an Organization that is messed up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 I would just like to point out that having Ben R. here would just have resulted in the same result.... Ben fell into a wonderful situation. A team that beleived in a strong O line....a power running game....and great defense. We would be calling Ben R. an absolute flop had he came here..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 I would just like to point out that having Ben R. here would just have resulted in the same result.... Ben fell into a wonderful situation. A team that beleived in a strong O line....a power running game....and great defense. We would be calling Ben R. an absolute flop had he came here..... 543029[/snapback] Absolutely disagree... Would he have the same success in Buffalo? Maybe not... Is he 50 times the QB JP is right now...yep he sure is...Big Ben has taken his share of beatings in Pittsburgh already too...He's just a better QB at this point...Well...a MUCH better QB at this point... Sorry...there is a MAJOR difference in Players...Yes I understand there is a difference in Teams also...Just not 40 points in QB Rating difference...Heck KH has a much better output with this Offense, why would you think Big Ben would not do the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sound_n_Fury Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 In 2003 the 4-7 Bills won consecutive home games against the NYG & the NYJ, boosting their record to 6-7 in a futile effort to save a coaching staff before losing their final 3 games to finish 6-10. If the Bills had just lost 1 of those 2 NY games they would have finished 5-11. The 1 game cost the Bills at least 2 positions in the draft. That year, the difference was that had the Bills lost just one more game, they would have drafted Ben Roethlisberger and we wouldn't have the QB controversy that will exist into next season, and we might be a team on the rise, close to Super Bowl contention. So as we celebrate the win against the Bengals, lets just hope we don't rue the day we beat the Bengals (and probably the Jets this Sunday) years from now. Because that one extra win in 2003 altered this team's history for a few years at best. 542990[/snapback] Lose em' all...that way you never have to worry about missing "your guy" in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 Lose em' all...that way you never have to worry about missing "your guy" in the draft. 543062[/snapback] Sarcasm noted...but when a team is as bad as this one, it needs ALL the top-tier talent it can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sound_n_Fury Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 Sarcasm noted...but when a team is as bad as this one, it needs ALL the top-tier talent it can get. 543068[/snapback] Just like the Bills teams in the 90s...always drafted at the bottom of the round and found great players every year. I don't buy the "we need to lose so we can draft a better guy theory." What we need is talent evaluators who can find the "right guy" to compliment the team's personnel, coaching philosophy, chemistry, and attitude. It doesn't have to be a "top 5-10 pick"...which if you miss, can set you back for years. You can play the "if only we drafted two slots higher game" almost every year. How come no one ever says that when nearly one third of those players end up as busts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 This message is brought to you by the law firm of Coulda, Shoulda, and Woulda... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 Just like the Bills teams in the 90s...always drafted at the bottom of the round and found great players every year. I don't buy the "we need to lose so we can draft a better guy theory." What we need is talent evaluators who can find the "right guy" to compliment the team's personnel, coaching philosophy, chemistry, and attitude. It doesn't have to be a "top 5-10 pick"...which if you miss, can set you back for years. You can play the "if only we drafted two slots higher game" almost every year. How come no one ever says that when nearly one third of those players end up as busts? 543070[/snapback] Sure, hindsight is 20/20. But never forget that the great teams of the late-80s and early-90s featured a LOT of talent the was either top-ten or first and second round talent. See: Bruce Smith Jim Kelly Thurman Thomas Cornelius Bennett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 I don't buy the "we need to lose so we can draft a better guy theory." What we need is talent evaluators who can find the "right guy" to compliment the team's personnel, coaching philosophy, chemistry, and attitude. It doesn't have to be a "top 5-10 pick"...which if you miss, can set you back for years. 543070[/snapback] Sure, hindsight is 20/20. But never forget that the great teams of the late-80s and early-90s featured a LOT of talent the was either top-ten or first and second round talent. See: Bruce Smith Jim Kelly Thurman Thomas Cornelius Bennett 543072[/snapback] You both have valid points. I just don't believe there is one way set in stone to improve the talent level. It could be a mixture of getting good draft picks and of having a staff that can evaluate talent to the point where you can feel confident in the ability of the team to draft past round 2 or 3. Sorry fellas, but I don't believe there's any "I'm right and you're wrong" here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvermike Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 Sure, hindsight is 20/20. But never forget that the great teams of the late-80s and early-90s featured a LOT of talent the was either top-ten or first and second round talent. See: Bruce Smith Jim Kelly Thurman Thomas Cornelius Bennett 543072[/snapback] Bruce Smith was a #1 overall pick, but the rest weren't the kind of guys you had to take a dive to get the pick for: Kelly was a #14 pick, the kind of position we'll end up in even if we win next week Thomas was the #40 pick, and Bennett was traded for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 Bruce Smith was a #1 overall pick, but the rest weren't the kind of guys you had to take a dive to get the pick for:Kelly was a #14 pick, the kind of position we'll end up in even if we win next week Thomas was the #40 pick, and Bennett was traded for. 543075[/snapback] But IIRC, Bennett was a top-tier pick as well. The CORE of that team was at the top of the heap draftwise. Sure, you fill out a squad with lower round picks, but in order for a team to be a success, you MUST have successful first and second high-value picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvermike Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 Bennett was a top-tier pick, but so was Drew Bledsoe. You get'em how you get'em. As for that corps: Talley: #39 Reed: #86 Wolfford: #20 Odomes: #29 (2nd round, in those days) Ballard: #283 (!) Conlan and Bruce were top #10 picks, but you also have Ronnie Harmon and Tony Hunter stuffed up there. You've gotta scout, scout, scout and then get a little lucky. That's where we've been blowing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 ... and if the Bills would have won a few more games in 2001, perhaps Freeney would be here instead of Mike Williams. Tanking games works if you know you are getting a Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer or Reggie Bush. Everything else is a crap shoot. In the past 10 years or so (salary cap era), I bet teams have done better with the 7-10 picks than the 3-6 picks from a cost/performance measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zow2 Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 Some people are too enamored with the coaching/system then an actual players talent level. Ben R. was a much better QB the moment he stepped on the field than JP is now. Big Ben would have made a huge difference even behind our offensive line. It's like saying we would still be 5-10 with Brady,,,,Please, we'd be like 9-6 or 10-5 right now with Roethlisberger. Just think about losses to Miami, Carolina and at New England that would not have happened if we had a solid QB,,,,and we probably would have won at least one of Atlanta, New Orleans or Denver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 Some people are too enamored with the coaching/system then an actual players talent level. Ben R. was a much better QB the moment he stepped on the field than JP is now. Big Ben would have made a huge difference even behind our offensive line. It's like saying we would still be 5-10 with Brady,,,,Please, we'd be like 9-6 or 10-5 right now with Roethlisberger. Just think about losses to Miami, Carolina and at New England that would not have happened if we had a solid QB,,,,and we probably would have won at least one of Atlanta, New Orleans or Denver. 543090[/snapback] Adding another skill player will fix the team's woes, eh? Tom Donahoe loves you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 You both have valid points. I just don't believe there is one way set in stone to improve the talent level. It could be a mixture of getting good draft picks and of having a staff that can evaluate talent to the point where you can feel confident in the ability of the team to draft past round 2 or 3. Sorry fellas, but I don't believe there's any "I'm right and you're wrong" here. 543074[/snapback] The most amazing thing about the draft to me is how good AND bad GMs can be. Players such as Pat Williams, Jason Peters and, hold onto your hat....Larry Little were undrafted. I wont even pretend to understand why not. Otoh, along come RJ with his super first round talent (as well as good character) and he lasts until the 4th. They knew. The Bills Organization simply cannot afford another stupid TD draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockpile Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 ...and we took that loser Lee Evans two picks later (and Losman 22nd). We SHOULDA traded the 13th, 22nd, and Bledsoe for Big Ben! BTW, what is QB Phil Rivers up to these days with San Diego? He was chosen 4th vs Big Ben 11th? Career stats: 2004 - 5/8, 33 yards, 1 TD 2005 - 1 play and he was sacked (-1) His career rating is 110.9 though! Games started = 0 In 2003 the 4-7 Bills won consecutive home games against the NYG & the NYJ, boosting their record to 6-7 in a futile effort to save a coaching staff before losing their final 3 games to finish 6-10. If the Bills had just lost 1 of those 2 NY games they would have finished 5-11. The 1 game cost the Bills at least 2 positions in the draft. That year, the difference was that had the Bills lost just one more game, they would have drafted Ben Roethlisberger and we wouldn't have the QB controversy that will exist into next season, and we might be a team on the rise, close to Super Bowl contention. So as we celebrate the win against the Bengals, lets just hope we don't rue the day we beat the Bengals (and probably the Jets this Sunday) years from now. Because that one extra win in 2003 altered this team's history for a few years at best. 542990[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokinandjokin Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 In 2003 the 4-7 Bills won consecutive home games against the NYG & the NYJ, boosting their record to 6-7 in a futile effort to save a coaching staff before losing their final 3 games to finish 6-10. If the Bills had just lost 1 of those 2 NY games they would have finished 5-11. The 1 game cost the Bills at least 2 positions in the draft. That year, the difference was that had the Bills lost just one more game, they would have drafted Ben Roethlisberger and we wouldn't have the QB controversy that will exist into next season, and we might be a team on the rise, close to Super Bowl contention. So as we celebrate the win against the Bengals, lets just hope we don't rue the day we beat the Bengals (and probably the Jets this Sunday) years from now. Because that one extra win in 2003 altered this team's history for a few years at best. 542990[/snapback] Whatever man. We can say all week that it is better to lose, it will help our draft slot, etc. It's all a bunch of B.S. We're setting ourselves up for the loss we all think is coming. I knew the game meant nothing, and losing can help the future team via draft selections. But once the game starts, losing never seemed like a good idea. I was so happy watching McGee return the kick and the pick....And I had money on the Bengals!!! It was a wonderful Xmas surprise-- frustrating, yes, because we knew this team was capable of playing with the big dogs, they just never actually proved it. I've seen the Bills fold so many times and lose games exactly like Saturday's game. That's why I was so happy they won. And by the way, it's not where you draft, it's who you draft. The shtty Patriots are down to 4th stringers at some positions, and they've been drafting last in each round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockpile Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 Sorry fellas, but I don't believe there's any "I'm right and you're wrong" here. 543074[/snapback] I am sorry, but you are wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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