SDS Posted December 13, 2005 Author Posted December 13, 2005 There are different types of leadership. Specifically, one does not have to be a complete dictator to be a leader. Indeed, how well do you think Marv would have gotten along in Buffalo with players like Kelly, Reed, Thomas, and Bruce if he was in their faces cussing them out and pissing in their wheaties on a day-to-day basis? I'd guess nowhere. But, back to Marv. The aforementioned players would've run through brick walls for the old guy if he asked them too. That is the leadership to which I am referring. Compare that to the head coach currently in Buffalo where his guys just coast through the game and collect a paycheck. 530768[/snapback] Agreed on all points. Marv had specific abilities well suited for THAT team....
East Brady Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 In 2005, "leadership" and $5 gets you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.... "Leadership" isn't going to rack up wins against a healthy Patriots team. Marv won with a single set of spectacularly talented guys of which many were hall of fame deserving. You brought up Marchibroda, but what about the cluster !@#$ that was Breshnahan and Shofner as co-coordinators? After he was forced to remove that abortion from the team - what about letting Dan Henning install the "H-Back" offense w/o the personnel to do that? It is one thing to "lead" a team overloaded with HOF talent, provided by the best GM in the game today, into battle - it is quite another to actually take a team that has average talent and put them into a position to win against equally, if not more talented, teams. Marv has never shown that ability and in fact I could list dozens of examples where his leadership failed this team in their pursuit of their goals, but I realize this isn't the place to lift the curtain on the wizard... 530742[/snapback] Let's not forget that the AFC was extremly weak for a number of years.I total agree with your sentiment about Marv, loved him for awhile but in the end he and his team choked, each loss was worse than the previous. Didn't he also hire the coach who totally insulted the hogs before superbowl 26 only to be spanked by them??? What was that guys name, Dickerson or something like that ????
dave mcbride Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 In 2005, "leadership" and $5 gets you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.... "Leadership" isn't going to rack up wins against a healthy Patriots team. Marv won with a single set of spectacularly talented guys of which many were hall of fame deserving. You brought up Marchibroda, but what about the cluster !@#$ that was Breshnahan and Shofner as co-coordinators? After he was forced to remove that abortion from the team - what about letting Dan Henning install the "H-Back" offense w/o the personnel to do that? It is one thing to "lead" a team overloaded with HOF talent, provided by the best GM in the game today, into battle - it is quite another to actually take a team that has average talent and put them into a position to win against equally, if not more talented, teams. Marv has never shown that ability and in fact I could list dozens of examples where his leadership failed this team in their pursuit of their goals, but I realize this isn't the place to lift the curtain on the wizard... 530742[/snapback] in 1995, the bills were going to face the browns in cleveland on monday night. the browns were picked by many to be the best team in the afc based on the talent and the coaching (belichick). they were coming off of a playoff season and had very high hopes. before the game, it came out that belichick had said that levy was a joke whose ideas were so antiquated that he had actually run the wing t offense. belichick sort of denied it, but not really; levy was pissed. the bills came in, and basically ran their vanilla offenses and defenses, matching up skill against skill. the bills kicked belichick's arrogant ass straight out to lake erie. by the way, do you in any way think that the dallas cowboys ran anything other than vanilla offenses and defenses in the johnson years? putting good players in a position to make plays is more of a strategy than you apparently think it is, and usually is more effective than the rube golbberg machine offensive plays that we are now periodically plagued with.
Peter Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 In 2005, "leadership" and $5 gets you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.... 530742[/snapback] I saw Jerry Seinfeld last Spring. He said that they should change the name of Starbucks to "Four Bucks."
apuszczalowski Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 Levy did one thing and it was the most important thing, He rallied his team and had them believe in him. He knew what to say to get his players to win and to play for him. He took them to 4 straight SB's. He won games. Of course he had great players, so did jimmy Johnson, so did Ditka, so did Parcells. The players are the ones who win the games, the coaches guide them in the right direction. Was he a great X's & O's coach? I have no idea, but he also had a great group of co-ordinators who are responsible for individual plays and helping the team win. A head coach does not make or break a team. Do you think just bringing someone like Dungy, Parcells, Billichik, Fox or Lewis into Buffalo would make a contendor? A good head coach will have a group of good co-ordinators and assistant coaches. Thats what makes a good team and thats why the coaches usually chose their own coaching staff. As for Marv, I like him as a coach, he is very intellegent guy who can lead a team, but I don't think he should be a candiate to come back and coach the bills. Let the guy enjoy retirement.
Orton's Arm Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 There are three ways a coach can contribute to his team's success: - Motivating the players. Marv seemed excellent in this area. - Choosing coordinators and assistant coaches. Marv's record here is decidedly mixed. His only offensive coordinator was Marchibroda; everyone else was a failure while in Buffalo. His only defensive coordinator was Wade Phillips; all his other attempts at coordinators failed. - Contributing to game day X's and O's. Belichick does this in New England by looking for opponent tendencies to cleverly exploit. Speaking of Belichick, it was clear the Bills were heavily outcoached in their first Super Bowl. Overall, Marv's contribution to X's and O's was disappointing. If Tony Dungy can take a Bill Polian roster and go undefeated (or pretty close thereto), Marv Levy should have been able to take a Bill Polian roster and at least get a Super Bowl win.
dave mcbride Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 There are three ways a coach can contribute to his team's success: - Motivating the players. Marv seemed excellent in this area. - Choosing coordinators and assistant coaches. Marv's record here is decidedly mixed. His only offensive coordinator was Marchibroda; everyone else was a failure while in Buffalo. His only defensive coordinator was Wade Phillips; all his other attempts at coordinators failed. - Contributing to game day X's and O's. Belichick does this in New England by looking for opponent tendencies to cleverly exploit. Speaking of Belichick, it was clear the Bills were heavily outcoached in their first Super Bowl. Overall, Marv's contribution to X's and O's was disappointing. If Tony Dungy can take a Bill Polian roster and go undefeated (or pretty close thereto), Marv Levy should have been able to take a Bill Polian roster and at least get a Super Bowl win. 530834[/snapback] the only time the bills had superior talent in those super bowls was in the giants game, and obviously, they could have won that one. they were outclassed talent-wise by both the redskins and the cowboys. the bills actually had an *excellent* game plan in the final super bowl (emphasizing short passing -- kelly was 19/26 in the first half), and it gave them a td lead at halftime. after that, though, it all came down to talent, and the cowboys were simply too much for the bills.
JDG Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 If Tony Dungy can take a Bill Polian roster and go undefeated (or pretty close thereto), Marv Levy should have been able to take a Bill Polian roster and at least get a Super Bowl win. 530834[/snapback] I don't think the question before the house is "Was Marv Levy a good NFL Head Coach?" I think that debate was pretty-well settled about four years ago in a little town in Ohio called Canton. The question before the house, seems to be, "Would bringing back Marv Levy help the Buffalo Bills?" The answer to that, for about one hundred reasons, is a resounding NO." JDG
Orton's Arm Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 I don't think the question before the house is "Was Marv Levy a good NFL Head Coach?" I think that debate was pretty-well settled about four years ago in a little town in Ohio called Canton. Any time a team has success, there's always the question of who should get credit for what. Barry Switzer's Super Bowl ring with the Cowboys showed Johnson's earlier successes were due more to talent than coaching. Indianapolis's more recent successes have made it increasingly clear the man most responsible for the Bills' Super Bowl run was Bill Polian.
JDG Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 Any time a team has success, there's always the question of who should get credit for what. Barry Switzer's Super Bowl ring with the Cowboys showed Johnson's earlier successes were due more to talent than coaching. Indianapolis's more recent successes have made it increasingly clear the man most responsible for the Bills' Super Bowl run was Bill Polian. 530874[/snapback] Because Tony Dungy, Peyton Manning, and Edgerrin James are chopped liver - right? JDG
SDS Posted December 13, 2005 Author Posted December 13, 2005 the only time the bills had superior talent in those super bowls was in the giants game, and obviously, they could have won that one. they were outclassed talent-wise by both the redskins and the cowboys. the bills actually had an *excellent* game plan in the final super bowl (emphasizing short passing -- kelly was 19/26 in the first half), and it gave them a td lead at halftime. after that, though, it all came down to talent, and the cowboys were simply too much for the bills. 530852[/snapback] Since you brought up that last SB, let me throw out my most "stinging" memory of Marv Levy. Marv had taken over play calling whenever the ball was inside the 10 yard line (a baffling strategy if you ask me)... Well, at the end of the 1st half with the ball on the 5ish yard line and 3rd down, what does our Head Coach call? A fuggin' shovel pass against the fastest defense in the league... Nice call Marv. You guaranteed a FG when a TD was a real possibility. It set us up nicely for the James Washington fumble return to start the 2nd half.
dave mcbride Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 Since you brought up that last SB, let me throw out my most "stinging" memory of Marv Levy. Marv had taken over play calling whenever the ball was inside the 10 yard line (a baffling strategy if you ask me)... Well, at the end of the 1st half with the ball on the 5ish yard line and 3rd down, what does our Head Coach call? A fuggin' shovel pass against the fastest defense in the league... Nice call Marv. You guaranteed a FG when a TD was a real possibility. It set us up nicely for the James Washington fumble return to start the 2nd half. 530895[/snapback] yes, i hated the shovel passes too. other than that, though, i thought they were well prepared and had a pretty good defensive game plan. then jimmy figured he could run at phil hanson for 15 straight plays and not suffer any ill consequences.
Orton's Arm Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 Because Tony Dungy, Peyton Manning, and Edgerrin James are chopped liver - right? And who's the guy who chose Peyton Manning when many felt Ryan Leaf would have the better career? Who's the guy who had so much confidence in Edgerrin James that he ignored Mike Ditka's offer of basically an entire draft? Who's the guy who hired Tony Dungy?
Guest BackInDaDay Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 ....game planning, and ensuring the gameplan is properly exicuted, as well as making "adjustments" should probably be under the perview of the co-ordinators. "Teaching" the individule players should come under the perview of the position coaches.530708[/snapback] Yes. he must have a "vision" of what the personality of the team is going to be and communicating that "vision" to the GM/scouting staff so they will be able to stock the roster with the type of player that will fit in to that vision. He must communicate with his co-ordinators so they can construct game plans that coincide with his vision. He must communicate to his players to convince them that by playing within his vision they can/will be sucessful. 530708[/snapback] Big Yes. What I'm trying to say is the head coach is the captain of the ship ....... he isn't the guy steering the ship, but he IS responsible to make sure the guy that is steering knows which direction he wants to go.530708[/snapback] Nicely done. This should be pinned and sent to Wikipedia as the definition of a pro-football head coach.
Rico Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 If Tony Dungy can take a Bill Polian roster and go undefeated (or pretty close thereto), Marv Levy should have been able to take a Bill Polian roster and at least get a Super Bowl win. 530834[/snapback] Let's see Dungy make it to a Super Bowl first before comparing him to Marv.
Guest BackInDaDay Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 Do I get the job then????? 530954[/snapback] It's yours, pal!
Taro T Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 Let's not forget that the AFC was extremly weak for a number of years.I total agree with your sentiment about Marv, loved him for awhile but in the end he and his team choked, each loss was worse than the previous. Didn't he also hire the coach who totally insulted the hogs before superbowl 26 only to be spanked by them??? What was that guys name, Dickerson or something like that ???? 530782[/snapback] Let's also not forget that including the 4 superbowls and 2 end of season games when the Bills sat most of their regulars, the Bills were 14-6 against the NFC from '90-'93. That includes a win in '90 at the Giants, the no punt game against Frisco, and a win in '93 at Dallas (yes, Smith didn't play that game, but they still went down there and won). I will agree that Marv was outcoached in the 4 superbowls, but the Bills didn't only make those Superbowls because the AFC stunk. Going back to the main point of this thread, Marv would not be a good HC for this current Bills team.
BuffOrange Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 Youre treading on DANGEROUS ground there, pal. I applaud you. 530563[/snapback] Yah, me too. It's true though - switch coaches in SB XXV and the Bills win by a TD.
finknottle Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 When Marv was brought in I thought it was a mistake. I saw him as just another retread who had failed miserably with his last team, the USFL Chicago Blitz. I was wrong. Yes, I did not think he was a good as the 'good' coaches at game-time adjusments. But he proved exceptional in three aspects. 1. He got the players to focus each and every game and play up to their potential. They never believed they were out of it. Many people say he had an easy time because the talent was there. I'm not so sure about that, outside of a few. He (or the system) made average players very good - think Talley or Tasker or Bebe or Kenneth Davis. 2. On balance, he was good at picking competent assistant coaches and maintaining stability. They came and went without the system lurching dramatically to and fro - contrast this with the TD era. 3. With the onset of free agency (coinciding with our glory years) it seemed that Buffalo got the short end. We seemed to lose at least two starters a year, including an OL, but the team managed to turn whoever was new into a legitimate starter by mid-season. So basically Levy brought competent management, a stable system, and motivation.
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