Lothar Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 I really thought Gray might have learned some solid fundamentals from his time with both GW and Lebeau - but his lack of adjustments and mis-read of DL capability - point out he's in over his head. A good coach can adapt to stay competitive, make adjustments on the fly. Wade-O even, used to routinely make halftime adjustments during his tenure as DC - I remember remarking on this board how even if we looked lost on D early on, we'd almost always clamp down after halftime on whatever was working for the opposition. Unfortunately, I'm not sure Jerry's good at thinking on his feet. We have A gameplan - sometimes pretty good - like the one against Carolina. But he has a hard time making changes on the fly or throwing wrinkles into the formations. It was either all blitz all the time - or back off and play cover 2 - I see no nuances in his style. Whoever the new coach is, I'd like to see if Dom Capers might be his pick for DC. McNally's probably an even bigger disappointment. I heard, perhaps wrongly, that he doesn't like superstar players - he works better with hard workers who have tools. At least last year I thought that the line when healthy (with Tucker instead of Pucillo) was decent at run blocking, mediocre at pass blocking. Gandy for Jennings is probably a slight downgrade but he's shown himself to be a passable LT. But what did McNally possibly see in Bennie Anderson? I was worried during training camp when we signed a Dolphin reject to be our primary backup, then when we lost depth due to the Tucker injury, we basically put all our marbles on 2 things: Anderson better be the road grader they promised, and the line better stay healthy. I think preseason showed that Bennie was a bust. So it was just a matter of time before the existing line with a below average center (Teague), a good but aging RG (Villy), a tenuous RT (Williams) and a passable LT (Gandy) were overmatched when injuries started occuring. Maybe TD dictated terms to McNally but I think Mouse over-estimated the hand he was dealt. I'm willing to give him a little slack since he has shown an ability to build a good OL from the scrap heap (Pudgy Parker and Zeigler on the Giants come to mind), but we gotta have more solid depth. Even last year, Tucker and our swing tackle were pretty decent. With both gone, only the supreme athleticism of Peters is making this line move up from catastrophic to simply awful.
VABills Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 Zeigler wasn't scrap heep he was an up and comer that had promised the Bills that they could match an offer and instead signed for 20 million over 5 years. So he was expected to do well. Also, Bennie has actually been playing well and probably our best Olineman the last 4 weeks. He was terrible the first part of the year but he seems to have turned that around. That said, the backups and ability of the line to adjust sucks and I blame all of that on Mcnally.
Lothar Posted December 13, 2005 Author Posted December 13, 2005 Zeigler wasn't scrap heep he was an up and comer that had promised the Bills that they could match an offer and instead signed for 20 million over 5 years. So he was expected to do well. Also, Bennie has actually been playing well and probably our best Olineman the last 4 weeks. He was terrible the first part of the year but he seems to have turned that around. That said, the backups and ability of the line to adjust sucks and I blame all of that on Mcnally. 530399[/snapback] It was $10 mil over 5 years I believe - and at least according to Buschbaum (RIP), he was descibed as an over-achiever. Looking at those names below - Panos, Nails - yikes! ... and I don't think Panos ever was healthy that year. Our OL over the last 10 years seem snakebit with regard to injuries. The Pro Football Weekly Internet Edition asked contributing editor Joel Buchsbaum for his thoughts on the subject. Q: What’s the scouting report on Dusty Zeigler? Buchsbaum: He played guard with the Bills last year; he’ll play center with the Giants. He’s a scrappy, tough, tenacious, pumped-up overachiever type of guy who’s good enough, not great. You always want better, but he gets the job done. Also, if the Giants start (Luke) Petitgout and (Mike) Rosenthal, they’ll have three Notre Dame starting offensive linemen. Q: What does losing Zeigler mean to the Bills? Buchsbaum: From Buffalo’s standpoint, it doesn’t hurt badly if they can re-sign Ruben Brown and Joe Panos is healthy. But if they lose one of those guys, that means they’d have to go to Jamie Nails, and Nails is too fat and runs out of gas too quickly.
SDS Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 It was $10 mil over 5 years I believe - and at least according to Buschbaum (RIP), he was descibed as an over-achiever. Looking at those names below - Panos, Nails - yikes! ... and I don't think Panos ever was healthy that year. Our OL over the last 10 years seem snakebit with regard to injuries. The Pro Football Weekly Internet Edition asked contributing editor Joel Buchsbaum for his thoughts on the subject. Q: What’s the scouting report on Dusty Zeigler? Buchsbaum: He played guard with the Bills last year; he’ll play center with the Giants. He’s a scrappy, tough, tenacious, pumped-up overachiever type of guy who’s good enough, not great. You always want better, but he gets the job done. Also, if the Giants start (Luke) Petitgout and (Mike) Rosenthal, they’ll have three Notre Dame starting offensive linemen. Q: What does losing Zeigler mean to the Bills? Buchsbaum: From Buffalo’s standpoint, it doesn’t hurt badly if they can re-sign Ruben Brown and Joe Panos is healthy. But if they lose one of those guys, that means they’d have to go to Jamie Nails, and Nails is too fat and runs out of gas too quickly. 530429[/snapback] My memories of Dusty Ziegler at c was him lying on his back with a size 15 footprint on his chest.
ans4e64 Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 McNally's probably an even bigger disappointment. I heard, perhaps wrongly, that he doesn't like superstar players - he works better with hard workers who have tools. At least last year I thought that the line when healthy (with Tucker instead of Pucillo) was decent at run blocking, mediocre at pass blocking. Gandy for Jennings is probably a slight downgrade but he's shown himself to be a passable LT. But what did McNally possibly see in Bennie Anderson? I was worried during training camp when we signed a Dolphin reject to be our primary backup, then when we lost depth due to the Tucker injury, we basically put all our marbles on 2 things: Anderson better be the road grader they promised, and the line better stay healthy. I think preseason showed that Bennie was a bust. So it was just a matter of time before the existing line with a below average center (Teague), a good but aging RG (Villy), a tenuous RT (Williams) and a passable LT (Gandy) were overmatched when injuries started occuring. Maybe TD dictated terms to McNally but I think Mouse over-estimated the hand he was dealt. I'm willing to give him a little slack since he has shown an ability to build a good OL from the scrap heap (Pudgy Parker and Zeigler on the Giants come to mind), but we gotta have more solid depth. Even last year, Tucker and our swing tackle were pretty decent. With both gone, only the supreme athleticism of Peters is making this line move up from catastrophic to simply awful. 530386[/snapback] I know a couple guys who are childhood friends with mcnally and they get together on a regular basis. I guess mcnally wanted to do a lot of things different all of which donahoe overrode. He said 2 years ago mike williams was a guard at best, but TD paid for a tackle. He also wanted peters in there from the start but TD didnt wanna take out his 1st round prospect in MW. So i guess we cant really say hes been a disapointment because we dont know whats going on behind the scenes, but it is fair to say our line is a disappointment.
Sound_n_Fury Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 Zeigler wasn't scrap heep he was an up and comer that had promised the Bills that they could match an offer and instead signed for 20 million over 5 years. So he was expected to do well. 530399[/snapback] It was 5-years and $9.5 million with a $1.9 million SB. Not much for a starting-quality OG, but he was a typical John Butler high character guy...something any team can always use more of.
SDS Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 It was 5-years and $9.5 million with a $1.9 million SB. Not much for a starting-quality OG, but he was a typical John Butler high character guy...something any team can always use more of. 530466[/snapback] What about the fact that he was terrible during his time in Buffalo? Does that matter?
RkFast Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 Oh goody...two MORE good coaches we can run out of town and watch succeed elsewhere. Seriously...we do we ask "Maybe its us?"
Simon Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 McNally's probably an even bigger disappointment. Considering that the OLine unit has suffered an obscene number of injuries(9 guys on just that one unit I believe) and is trying to protect a rookie QB, I'm willing to give McNally a pass on this season. Given the opportunity to coach 6-7 healthy players with some semblance of experience and continuity, I think you'll see very different results. My memories of Dusty Ziegler at c was him lying on his back with a size 15 footprint on his chest. I'm not sure if that is fair. There were also plenty of instances where he ended up sitting upright in the QB du jour's lap.
SDS Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 I'm not sure if that is fair. There were also plenty of instances where he ended up sitting upright in the QB du jour's lap. 530490[/snapback] Snap #1 of Buff vs. Tenn playoff game saw ol' Dusty get trampled for a sack... Flat on his back. Paris Hilton took notes...
JoeF Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 Q: What does losing Zeigler mean to the Bills? Buchsbaum: From Buffalo’s standpoint, it doesn’t hurt badly if they can re-sign Ruben Brown and Joe Panos is healthy. But if they lose one of those guys, that means they’d have to go to Jamie Nails, and Nails is too fat and runs out of gas too quickly. ___________________________________________________________ If that scrawny, freakish looking little Buchsbaum guy was still alive--I would kick his ass for calling my man Jamie too fat...he never stood behind him--Jamie never ran out of gas baby... I miss Joel Buchsbaum....those PFW draft books just haven't had the same biting commentary since he passed.
Coach Tuesday Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 Also, Bennie has actually been playing well and probably our best Olineman the last 4 weeks. He was terrible the first part of the year but he seems to have turned that around. 530399[/snapback] Dude, what have you been watching? Bennie has been flat-out AWFUL. He is responsible for at least one blown-up play per SERIES. The guy is a joke, guaranteed the coaches hate his guts but have no other options right now. He wouldn't even cut it in NFL Europe.
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 Dude, what have you been watching? Bennie has been flat-out AWFUL. He is responsible for at least one blown-up play per SERIES. The guy is a joke, guaranteed the coaches hate his guts but have no other options right now. He wouldn't even cut it in NFL Europe. 530503[/snapback] You sure you're not confusing him with Gandy? Damn it, this line has changed so many times over the season, I don't even know who's playing where anymore! That's probably the biggest reason the line sucks...
BEAST MODE BABY! Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 I know a couple guys who are childhood friends with mcnally and they get together on a regular basis. I guess mcnally wanted to do a lot of things different all of which donahoe overrode. He said 2 years ago mike williams was a guard at best, but TD paid for a tackle. He also wanted peters in there from the start but TD didnt wanna take out his 1st round prospect in MW. So i guess we cant really say hes been a disapointment because we dont know whats going on behind the scenes, but it is fair to say our line is a disappointment. 530456[/snapback] I know this is total hearsay, but it has a ring of truth to it. I can see Donahoe holding on too long and not being brave enough to cut his losses. McNally stikes me as the kind of guy who walks in and says how it is. I mean, why the heck is Coy Wire still here? I find it very believable that Donahoe tries to hold on to guys that coaches would want to get rid of.
John from Riverside Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 You know.....reading along in this thread just gives me an upset feeling in my stomach.... No it isn't because of any of you....it is just the though that bills management has just not gotten it.....for years and years..... The last time our Bills were actually good was when they biult a quality O Line WITH some guys who could play multiple positons backing them up...... Even when we were getting bounced in the 1st round of playoffs we had O Linemen who could play multiple positions.....we dont have that now.... If we do indeed get a high enough draft position that might make other teams give up something for it.....we NEED to trade down and pick up multiple picks and rebiuld both our lines...... I could see the opportunity to get a lot of picks in a quality draft....for instance..... - Say we got a top 3 pick (is that possible?) I would trade OUT of that pick to the middle of the round....picking up and additional 2nd and an additional 4th. - I really dont believe the top that Nate Clements cannot be franchised and traded for anything higher then a 1st.....if you cant get a 1st then you keep him and work out a deal....but I DO beleive that someone will pony up that 1st rounder - We have the additional 3rd from the Titans (which is looking like a smart move) - We will probably get an additional 4th for the losses in free agency 2 1sts 2 2nds 2 3rds 2 4ths We need DT, OL, a physical wideout, etc etc. I think our improved TE is already on the roster in Everitt....I think our backup RB is on the roster in Lional Gates.....we also need a pass rushing specialist DE that we can put in on 3rd downs......etc etc Start with the lines
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 I really thought Gray might have learned some solid fundamentals from his time with both GW and Lebeau - but his lack of adjustments and mis-read of DL capability - point out he's in over his head. A good coach can adapt to stay competitive, make adjustments on the fly. Wade-O even, used to routinely make halftime adjustments during his tenure as DC - I remember remarking on this board how even if we looked lost on D early on, we'd almost always clamp down after halftime on whatever was working for the opposition. Unfortunately, I'm not sure Jerry's good at thinking on his feet. We have A gameplan - sometimes pretty good - like the one against Carolina. But he has a hard time making changes on the fly or throwing wrinkles into the formations. It was either all blitz all the time - or back off and play cover 2 - I see no nuances in his style. Whoever the new coach is, I'd like to see if Dom Capers might be his pick for DC. McNally's probably an even bigger disappointment. I heard, perhaps wrongly, that he doesn't like superstar players - he works better with hard workers who have tools. At least last year I thought that the line when healthy (with Tucker instead of Pucillo) was decent at run blocking, mediocre at pass blocking. Gandy for Jennings is probably a slight downgrade but he's shown himself to be a passable LT. But what did McNally possibly see in Bennie Anderson? I was worried during training camp when we signed a Dolphin reject to be our primary backup, then when we lost depth due to the Tucker injury, we basically put all our marbles on 2 things: Anderson better be the road grader they promised, and the line better stay healthy. I think preseason showed that Bennie was a bust. So it was just a matter of time before the existing line with a below average center (Teague), a good but aging RG (Villy), a tenuous RT (Williams) and a passable LT (Gandy) were overmatched when injuries started occuring. Maybe TD dictated terms to McNally but I think Mouse over-estimated the hand he was dealt. I'm willing to give him a little slack since he has shown an ability to build a good OL from the scrap heap (Pudgy Parker and Zeigler on the Giants come to mind), but we gotta have more solid depth. Even last year, Tucker and our swing tackle were pretty decent. With both gone, only the supreme athleticism of Peters is making this line move up from catastrophic to simply awful. 530386[/snapback] Perhaps Gray and JMac deserve the central blame as the cause of the 2005 OL D and OL failures. However, if this is true then one must explain: 1. Were the D and OL of 2004 last year good or even better than expected under Gray and JMac? I think the answers are yes in both cases. The results this year were in fact disappointing because their units (especially the D) and their work was good last year (and actually the last two for Gray). 2. If they and their work was good last year and the results sucked this year what was different? I think if one is going to point to them as problems the useful and logical thing to do would be to point to how they were different this year or provide arguments that the success last year was due to other causes and it was their failure this year that was the problem. While there may be a case that the success experiencd by the D was due to LeBeau's scheme he brought hear in 2003, I think that the fact this unit improved its performance under Gray with LeBeau gone last year points to its success being more than a simple matter of LeBeau's work. Even if you want to argue that 2004's results was simply LeBeau's doing and once changes occured to make this Gray's team the devolution began actually ignores the fact that since 10 of 11 players were the same this was still the LeBeau team. Why was LeBeau's team better without him in 2004 and then sucked without him 2005. His prescence or absence does not fit the direction of Dperformance. My sense is that what was different was that the overarching leadership provided and how the team responded to this MM/GM leadership are actually the lead issues here. The performance outage impacted both the O and the D so i would look to a common problem to explain the devolution not focus on two underlings.
BEAST MODE BABY! Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 I will point to the beginning and the end of last year as an example of how this D was over-rated...and how we played a bunch of weak NFC opponents. I have never been impressed with gray.
Bill from NYC Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 My memories of Dusty Ziegler at c was him lying on his back with a size 15 footprint on his chest. 530451[/snapback] Mine was when he was on the sidelines gasping for air during a game. He frequently used to run out of gas I can't remember who our opponent was, but RJ had a run of about 60 yards called back for holding.
ganesh Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 Grays biggest weakness in his 5 years with the bills: Inability to get off the field on 3rd and longs.....That one failure caused this team from being a dominating defense for 4 years and from being a good one in its final year......Especially this year, with 4 years of films they really exposed him....thanks to Dick LeBeau who showed how to run against this defense in the last week of last season....Everyone used that game as a blueprint to beat us....and Gray COULD NOT adjust...
Buckeye Eric Posted December 13, 2005 Posted December 13, 2005 The problem is not so much McNally. TD wrongly assumed that McNally would be able to be able to turn Lead like Bennie Anderson into Gold. Even the worlds best chemists can only turn Lead into Fools Gold.
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