Turning back the clock a bit

[dave mcbride]

"the greatest show on turf" put up 23 points against the Titans on a neutral site.  1 TD better than our Bills...

526604[/snapback]

the rams put up 436 yards that day. that's a good bit better than the bills did.

[Dawgg]

I don't know where you are going here... but if you are trying to imply RJ was better than Flutie based on these two "facts," it is quite laughable.

 

Moreover, if you are trying to imply that Flutie and RJ were even in the same class...

 

you get the idea

 

 

Fact: Flutie - 2 fumbles, and 1 INT. 17 points.  Ironically, ended game on his back w/o ball

Fact: Johnson - 0 fumbles, 0 INT, 1 safety. 16 points. Ended game with would be winning points.

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[Brandon]

well, at least I've got you to stop championing the tennessee defense!

 

also remember that miami's offense played pretty well that game. the bills gained over 400 yards (the only team to do so that year, i think), but miami gained 352 and marino had a very productive day. mare missed a 26 yard field goal as well.

 

look we can argue about stats all we want, but you and i watched both of those games. the bills offense was thrilling that day in miami, but were killed by the turnovers. moulds had a career day 9 catches for 240 yards.  also the bills probably would have had 21 if not for the absolutely braindead penalty by reed at the goal line. in tennessee, the bills offense looked like utter crap the entire game except for that one drive spurred by that 50 yard run by antowain smith and that last drive in which johnson played very, very well. the miami defense was clearly the superior foe, though.

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And just who committed those turnovers against Miami???

[The Jokeman]

facts:

 

flutie was 21-36 for 360 yards (10 yds/pass play) with 1 td and 1 int and 4 rushes for 29 yards.  he also lost a fumble on a sack by trace armstrong.

 

that year, miami was 7-1 at home and their only loss was a squeaker to the jets.

 

as for their defense, they were 3rd overall, led the league in INTs, and were 6th in TD passes allowed.

 

and whoever was playing tackle for the bills that day surely wasn't much better than the guys lining up in 1999 notwithstanding any hobbling. actual pocket awareness on the part of the qb tends to make those '98 guys look better, though.

 

call me crazy, but given the circumstances, that looks like lighting them up to me.

 

johnson was 10-22 for 131 yards and was sacked in the endzone, which of course resulted in points for TN. 

 

TN, which was 8-0 at home (pretty much a wash compared to the dolphins), was 26th in pass defense, 27th in ypa given up, 27th in TD passes allowed, and 17th in interceptions. they were 18th overall in defense.

 

those are the facts, actually.

 

p.s. 2000 was a different season.

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pps The Titans made the Super Bowl and might have won had Dyson not been stoppeed at the 1 yard line that year but what did Miami do after beating us the year before?

[dave mcbride]

pps The Titans made the Super Bowl and might have won had Dyson  not been stoppeed at the 1 yard line that year but what did Miami do after beating us the year before?

526717[/snapback]

well, the issue is comparing the two teams in their respective playoff performances.

[dave mcbride]

And just who committed those turnovers against Miami???

526666[/snapback]

don't go there brandon - the year that flutie had in '98 was infinitely better than anything johnson put up in his truly sorry ass career stretching from usc -- where he lost 3 straight years to both nd and ucla (i was at ucla in grad school at the time) with really poor performances despite having tony boselli and, in succession, three first round picks at WR (curtis conway, johnny morton, and Keyshawn) -- to the pros.

[The Jokeman]

don't go there brandon - the year that flutie had in '98 was infinitely better than anything johnson put up in his truly sorry ass career stretching from usc -- where he lost 3 straight years to both nd and ucla (i was at ucla in grad school at the time) with really poor performances despite having tony boselli and, in succession,  three first round picks at WR (curtis conway, johnny morton, and Keyshawn) -- to the pros.

526740[/snapback]

Yeah Johnson was bad at he only set 20 NCAA, Pac-10 and USC records at Southern Cal and was considered by most the best QB in the nation following his junior year.

[dave mcbride]

Yeah Johnson was bad at he only set 20 NCAA, Pac-10 and USC records at Southern Cal and was considered by most the best QB in the nation following his junior year.

526752[/snapback]

clearly, you didn't watch the games. he was truly awful in every big game he played except for the freedom/carquest/whatever bowls that usc ended up being relegated too after chokes against the top dogs in the pac 10 & ND. 0-3 against ucla and 0-3 against ND in really bad losses will do that to you. also know that he had the best passing talent (including the pass blocking on the o-line) in the country for 3 years going. there's a reason he dropped to the top of the 4th round, and it wasn't because of physical talent, which he had in abundance. in fact, i watched the draft that year and one of the local stations set up shop in his apartment. he had expected to go in the first, but it didn't happen. i actually felt bad for him; it was pretty depressing.

[splinter21]

WOW. i never thought i would see the day where a fan would try and reason why RJ was good. I thought bills fans acrosss the board despised him. he's liek the measure of incompetence on this board yet people are defendng him and saying he was actually better than flutie??? WOW

[DCM]

my cat is old and lost some of his teeth.....now he kinda drools all over the house.

[The Jokeman]

clearly, you didn't watch the games. he was truly awful in every big game he played except for the freedom/carquest/whatever bowls that usc ended up being relegated too after chokes against the top dogs in the pac 10 & ND. 0-3 against ucla and 0-3 against ND in really bad losses will do that to you.  also know that he had the best passing talent (including the pass blocking on the o-line) in the country for 3 years going.  there's a reason he dropped to the top of the 4th round, and it wasn't because of physical talent, which he had in abundance. in fact, i watched the draft that year and one of the local stations set up shop in his apartment. he had expected to go in the first, but it didn't happen. i actually felt bad for him; it was pretty depressing.

526756[/snapback]

Yeah that game that he brought USC against UCLA back with less than than a minute on the clock was horrible. I mean he threw an INT in the end zone that caused his team to lose but his coach choosing not to go for 1 and tie the game had no baring on that loss. I've stated my beliefs in another Flutie thread but here's a thought. What if the Bills took RJ instead of Todd Collins in the 2nd Round? Would he be so hated, I doubt it as he might of developed and we might have taken Tra Thomas (a LT we have lacked regardless of our QB) with the pick we traded to get RJ for. But yeah RJ proved to be far worse than Stoney Case and Eric Zeier too (some of the other QBs that went earlier than RJ in 1995 not named Todd Collins ).

[dave mcbride]

Yeah that game that he brought USC against UCLA back with less than than a minute on the clock was horrible. I mean he threw an INT in the end zone that caused his team to lose but his coach choosing not to go for 1 and tie the game had no baring on that loss. I've stated my beliefs in another Flutie thread but here's a thought. What if the Bills took RJ instead of Todd Collins in the 2nd Round? Would he be so hated, I doubt it as he might of developed and we might have taken Tra Thomas (a LT we have lacked regardless of our QB) with the pick we traded to get RJ for. But yeah RJ proved to be far worse than Stoney Case and Eric Zeier too (some of the other QBs that went earlier than RJ in 1995 not named Todd Collins ).

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wait a second - that was not a 2 point try. sc was down by 3, and john robinson tried to win it with a minute left with first down on the 2 (the right thing to do). that ucla team he played against his junior season was in pretty much entirely inferior to sc that year, yet they still lost because of that really bad INT he threw to marvin goodwin. no way should ucla have won that game, but they did, and went to the rose bowl as a consequence despite the fact that wayne cook was their qb. plus he did the same thing again the following year against a *worse* bruins team, yet had keyshawn to throw to. keyshawn did get to enjoy his rose bowl but it was a year later with a true no-name at qb. your point about collins is an excellent one, but as it turned out i really don't think any of those guys were particularly worthy. i guess it was a bad year for the sleeper mid-round qb. it happens.

[Kelly the Dog]

Yeah Johnson was bad at he only set 20 NCAA, Pac-10 and USC records at Southern Cal and was considered by most the best QB in the nation following his junior year.

526752[/snapback]

I have asked this question several times and no one has ever come close to giving me a reason for it. I will ask it of you:

 

Prior to the NFL draft, Rob Johnson had set 20 NCAA, Pac-10 and USC records. He was big, very fast, had a cannon for an arm and could run like the wind. He had good mechanics. he had good feet. He could make every throw as they say. He played at a big school in a major conference with a pro-style offense with former pro coaches. He had Keyshawn and Johnnie Morton as his receivers. Boselli was his roommate. His father was a highly reputable high school football coach in California. He had EVERYTHING scouts love. Players with half of these measurables and qualities rocket up the charts for no reason. Players with his size and arm strength and running ability that never did a thing jump two, three, four rounds in the draft based on potential. So why on earth would Rob Johnson, with no injury record, no bad personality marks, no questionable off the field issues whatsoever, last until the fourth round? Guys like that go way up the charts every year. Why did this guy go down?

 

Because, perhaps, scouts just didn't think he was very good.

[The Jokeman]

wait a second - that was not a 2 point try. sc was down by 3, and john robinson tried to win it with a minute left with first down on the 2 (the right thing to do). that ucla team he played against his junior season was in pretty much entirely inferior to sc that year, yet they still lost because of that really bad INT he threw to marvin goodwin. no way should ucla have won that game, but they did, and went to the rose bowl as a consequence despite the fact that wayne cook was their qb.  plus he did the same thing again the following year against a *worse* bruins team, yet had keyshawn to throw to. keyshawn did get to enjoy his rose bowl but it was a year later with a true no-name at qb. your point about collins is an excellent one, but as it turned out i really don't think any of those guys were particularly worthy.  i guess it was a bad year for the sleeper mid-round qb. it happens.

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According to this article the Trojans were down, 38-31, with less than a minute to play. Quarterback Rob Johnson scored on a 1-yard quarterback sneak to bring USC within one. USC Coach Larry Smith opted for the two-point conversion. With 41 seconds left in the game, Johnson's pass intended for tight end Yonnie Jackson was intercepted by UCLA linebacker Nkosi Singleton and the Bruins held on to the 38-37 win.

[dave mcbride]

According to this article the Trojans were down, 38-31, with less than a minute to play. Quarterback Rob Johnson scored on a 1-yard quarterback sneak to bring USC within one.  USC Coach Larry Smith opted for the two-point conversion. With 41 seconds left in the game, Johnson's pass intended for tight end Yonnie Jackson was intercepted by UCLA linebacker Nkosi Singleton and the Bruins held on to the 38-37 win.

526816[/snapback]

???

 

keep reading the article:

 

This time, the return of John Robinson almost guaranteed a victory for USC.

Late in the game, Johnson found himself in a similar predicament, only this time the Trojans were down, 27-21. With under two minutes remaining in the game, Smith elected to prove the Bruins had a mild case of amnesia and tried another pass to the tight end.

This time, Bruin linebacker Marvin Goodwin was the recipient of Johnson's pass intended for tight end Tyler Cashman.

Once again, the big play went the Bruins' way and so did the game that cost USC a Rose Bowl berth.

"I feel like I let down every `SC fan and the team," Johnson said after the game.

In the months that followed, alumni and students also rested the blame on Johnson's arm.

The next two years saw the Trojans fail to come within striking distance late in the game.

[The Jokeman]

I have asked this question several times and no one has ever come close to giving me a reason for it. I will ask it of you:

 

Prior to the NFL draft, Rob Johnson had set 20 NCAA, Pac-10 and USC records. He was big, very fast, had a cannon for an arm and could run like the wind. He had good mechanics. he had good feet. He could make every throw as they say. He played at a big school in a major conference with a pro-style offense with former pro coaches. He had Keyshawn and Johnnie Morton as his receivers. Boselli was his roommate. His father was a highly reputable high school football coach in California. He had EVERYTHING scouts love. Players with half of these measurables and qualities rocket up the charts for no reason. Players with his size and arm strength and running ability that never did a thing jump two, three, four rounds in the draft based on potential. So why on earth would Rob Johnson, with no injury record, no bad personality marks, no questional off the field issues whatsoever, last until the fourth round? Guys like that go way up the charts every year. Why did this guy go down?

 

Because, perhaps, scouts just didn't think he was very good.

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Or perhaps he didn't have as great as a senior year as scouts had hoped and fell down the draft charts. Not to mention sometimes if a player begins to fall in the draft other GMs are relunctant to take a guy. Part of the reason he was taken by the Jags with the 1st pick in the 4th was because all the positives you mentioned about him despite them having their QB in place when they traded for Marc Brunell prior to the draft.

[dave mcbride]

Or perhaps he didn't have as great as a senior year as scouts had hoped and fell down the draft charts. Not to mention sometimes if a player begins to fall in the draft other GMs are relunctant to take a guy. Part of the reason he was taken by the Jags with the 1st pick in the 4th was because all the positives you mentioned about him despite them having their QB in place when they traded for Marc Brunell prior to the draft.

526824[/snapback]

i think you're partly right, but as it so happens i paid exceptionally close attention to college ball and the draft that year and the word at least in the LA media as i recall it was that there were questions about his attitude, football intelligence, and the quote-unquote fire in his belly. the local LA papers and many other places had him going anywhere from late 1st (the most common slotting) to late second. everyone knew he had a killer arm and good athletic skills.

[Kelly the Dog]

Or perhaps he didn't have as great as a senior year as scouts had hoped and fell down the draft charts. Not to mention sometimes if a player begins to fall in the draft other GMs are relunctant to take a guy. Part of the reason he was taken by the Jags with the 1st pick in the 4th was because all the positives you mentioned about him despite them having their QB in place when they traded for Marc Brunell prior to the draft.

526824[/snapback]

That is kind of my point. They knew. Guys that run and throw like him always go up but he didn't, he went down. Because they knew. He just wasn't a winner. He had everything going for him but he simply didnt do it. Part of it was never beating UCLA. Never really winning a big game.

 

And there may be some cases but I can't recall one, when a player fell like that and other GMs didn't take him that didn't have a question mark. It's always a guy that has a lot of talent but there are off the field or injury or personality issues that makes some GMs stay away from him and then it begins a snowball effect. I don't recall too many players that had no issues that this happened to, although I assume it has happened.

[The Dean]

the quote-unquote fire in his belly

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"fire in his belly"

 

It's easier. Saves keystrokes

 

I'm just sayin...

[dave mcbride]

sometimes i just have to step back and remind myself, "this is deep RJ territory." it's a dark, dark place, man.