Is this what the Dem's mean when they say..

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

I don't think "right" and "wrong" are the issue in this particular case.  If the Iraqi people want us there, we can fairly claim to be "liberators" if the Iraqi people do not want us there, we are "invaders". 

 

I get your point, but I don't think this is necessarily that black and white. I've read plenty of quotes from Iraqis of the nature of "Thank you for liberating us from Saddam...now get the !@#$ out of our country." Even if you simplisticly boil the "liberator/invader" label down to "What do the Iraqis think?", it's not as clear as you make it out.

 

Whether or not it is "right" for us to be there regardless of what the Iraqi's think for our own reasons such as our national security is another issue entirely.  As for the issue at hand, ie, Dean claiming that 80% of Iraqis do not want us there and OTR's questioning of that position, the cited poll is perfectly relevant, decisive even.  That doesn't mean that Dean's conclusions based on that finding are sound, just that he is apparently right as to the fact that was placed in question.

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A lot of it, of course, depends on the nature of the poll as well. What question did the polled respond to? "Do you want the US out of your country?", or "Do you wish the US never entered your country?", or "Do wish the US never got rid of Hussein?", while roughly equivalent statements, will garner vastly different responses. It also matters, too, who you ask...is that 80% of everyone in Iraq, or 80% of Kurds, or 80% of Shi'ites, or 80% of Sunni Ba'athists? It's perfectly reasonable, I think, to question the nature of Dean's claim, as it's again NOT that black and white, and all polls are not created equal.

[Alaska Darin]

I don't think "right" and "wrong" are the issue in this particular case.  If the Iraqi people want us there, we can fairly claim to be "liberators" if the Iraqi people do not want us there, we are "invaders".  Whether or not it is "right" for us to be there regardless of what the Iraqi's think for our own reasons such as our national security is another issue entirely.  As for the issue at hand, ie, Dean claiming that 80% of Iraqis do not want us there and OTR's questioning of that position, the cited poll is perfectly relevant, decisive even.  That doesn't mean that Dean's conclusions based on that finding are sound, just that he is apparently right as to the fact that was placed in question.

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I wasn't referring to Iraq. I was referring to polls - which has ALWAYS been my stance, "regardless" of what my father says in his above post.

[Alaska Darin]

You spend far too much time failing to take a stand on anything that would require responsibility for your rants

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That is as big a crock of RCOW as it was when he first started it. It's also probably the single biggest reason his little B word ass left when he did. Such backbone. Your politics and "fight" are the very reason the Founding Fathers decided to risk their lives to establish this country.

 

I suppose I could be like most of you and pretend that aligning myself with corrupt political parties who care about me only when they need my vote. If that's "taking a stand", then you are absolutely correct - count me out.

 

The fact of the matter is you partisan idiots simply can't handle the truth and need to be human sheep so you can feel like you belong to something. The Democratic party should absolutely be up in arms about the Hussein "administration" being up in arms because his government was ABSOLUTELY the result of the liberal vision of turning over all power to a faceless entity.

 

Continue to lie to yourself if you must but it's highly unlikely that the most rich and powerful entity in the world that faces ZERO accountability is ever going to provide the things for you that you won't provide the neighbor you don't wave to everyday.

[Mickey]

I get your point, but I don't think this is necessarily that black and white.  I've read plenty of quotes from Iraqis of the nature of "Thank you for liberating us from Saddam...now get the !@#$ out of our country."  Even if you simplisticly boil the "liberator/invader" label down to "What do the Iraqis think?", it's not as clear as you make it out.

A lot of it, of course, depends on the nature of the poll as well.  What question did the polled respond to?  "Do you want the US out of your country?", or "Do you wish the US never entered your country?", or "Do wish the US never got rid of Hussein?", while roughly equivalent statements, will garner vastly different responses.  It also matters, too, who you ask...is that 80% of everyone in Iraq, or 80% of Kurds, or 80% of Shi'ites, or 80% of Sunni Ba'athists?  It's perfectly reasonable, I think, to question the nature of Dean's claim, as it's again NOT that black and white, and all polls are not created equal.

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OTR was, it seemed to me, incredulous over Dean's claim, as if the notion that the majority of Iraqi's at this point do no want our troops in their country is total nonsense. I don't know whether the poll was sound or not but certainly, Dean's claim is not the far fetched, couldn't possibly be true nonsense OTR thought it was.

 

Certainly the rest is all debatable. Maybe they wanted us then and don't want us there now. I was sacrificing subtlety for clarity as to the main point. The whole issue of whether we have any support for continuing to be there and what that determination would mean for our policy in Iraq is a pretty complex one.

 

The one exit strategy that might allow us to leave without it being claimed that we were defeated and without having wiped out the insurgency is for the Iraqi people and their government to order/ask us to leave.

[ExiledInIllinois]

I am glad you didn't vote for Bush, clearly I raised you right. Or perhaps you turned out OK in spite of the way I raised you.

 

Still, doing what is right versus what is popular may mean that someone will have to make a decision that may be contrary to the will of the people (that which is popular).  Who should make that decision????  If it is going to be made by whoever the current administration may be (Dem, Repub, Libertarian, IBP) it means that someone is making a decision as regards what is best for everybody, regardless how the greater body ploitic may feel. frequently the Dems get bashed for doing such things.  Currently it is the Republicans (GW and his cronies) doing that.  yet the "hotpockets" Republican crowd here on PPP fail to see that inconsistency (surprise). BTW, my boy, I never said yoiu were one of theose Repubs.  You spend far too much time failing to take a stand on anything that would require responsibility for your rants

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Don't you know him by now? He just wants it to be HIM making the "right" choices. Screw everybody else. If it isn't HIS choice, it is a "faceless governement."

 

You can have 6 million faces in those polls and they'd still be wrong. Heck! everybody is wrong. Just leave me alone and let me do what I want!

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Prayer?

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Christian?

[ExiledInIllinois]

Continue to lie to yourself if you must but it's highly unlikely that the most rich and powerful entity  in the world that faces ZERO accountability is ever going to provide the things for you that you won't provide the neighbor you don't wave to everyday.

522712[/snapback]

 

Both my neighbors even have my key!

 

I wave to my neighbors everyday... Heck, I wave to everyone. People even get my "slow down" wave when I am on the freeway... A move I perfected as a "canal commie" on transiting vessels. Then there is the "thumbs up," "open hand," and various other gestures to signal positon, approval, or DISPROVAL ( ).

 

I am just one gesticulator!

[IowaBill]

I wasn't referring to Iraq.  I was referring to polls - which has ALWAYS been my stance, "regardless" of what my father says in his above post.

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So you don't like polls, thats a pretty extreme poistion, you sure you don't want to just sit back and say something, "yeah go ahead and participate in polls, you andthe rest of the lemmings" or something equally well thoughtout. I am interested in what you next equally contraversial opinion will be ..............perhaps you can say that 'you don't like Mondays".........hey, that could be a song.

[Alaska Darin]

So you don't like polls, thats a pretty extreme poistion, you sure you don't want to just sit back and say something, "yeah go ahead and participate in polls, you andthe rest of the lemmings" or something equally well thoughtout.  I am interested in what you next equally contraversial opinion will be ..............perhaps you can say that 'you don't like Mondays".........hey, that could be a song.

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I have a new fan. Now I can get through the day.

 

You're right. I don't like polls because they rarely ask pointed questions and to be quite honest not many of the people who are "sampled" have the slightest degree of sophistication in regards to the issue at hand (all one has to do is watch the "man on the street" segments of any tv or radio show to understand).

 

Governing by poll is a recipe for disaster for the same reason. I'm really sorry that this sensible concept is so elusive for you.

[ExiledInIllinois]

So you don't like polls, thats a pretty extreme poistion, you sure you don't want to just sit back and say something, "yeah go ahead and participate in polls, you andthe rest of the lemmings" or something equally well thoughtout.  I am interested in what you next equally contraversial opinion will be ..............perhaps you can say that 'you don't like Mondays".........hey, that could be a song.

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IMO, It is really a control issue. Unless people like that are controlling things, they hate everything else.

 

People will preach accountability. What kind of accountability (to others especially) do people like that (who you explain above) have when they exercise distain for everything else except their own notions of how things should be run? They are accountable to nobody except their own self. This works well if you are hermit or you are cloistered ( inside joke)... But, who can be like that in society at large?

 

Signed,

 

Dr. EII PhD.

[IowaBill]

I have a new fan.  Now I can get through the day.

 

You're right.  I don't like polls because they rarely ask pointed questions and to be quite honest not many of the people who are "sampled" have the slightest degree of sophistication in regards to the issue at hand (all one has to do is watch the "man on the street" segments of any tv or radio show to understand).

 

Governing by poll is a recipe for disaster for the same reason.  I'm really sorry that this sensible concept is so elusive for you.

523215[/snapback]

I wouldn't disagree with you regarding the lack of sophistication on the part of people that are "sampled". Those people do make up the general public and body politic. If pollsters were to screen respondents they may get different answers, but they wouldn't be any more accurate regarding how people feel on a certain topic. further, who would set the standards for "sophistication". the whoel thing smacks of elitism, whcich is a crappy way to run a business or a country, for that matter.

 

On another note, after being a fan of the Bills through the 70's and 80's (Bruce Mathison under center), being a fan of yours is easy.

[Alaska Darin]

I wouldn't disagree with you regarding the lack of sophistication on the part of people that are "sampled".  Those people do make up the general public and body politic.  If pollsters were to screen respondents they may get different answers, but they wouldn't be any more accurate regarding how people feel on a certain topic.  further, who would set the standards for "sophistication". the whoel thing smacks of elitism, whcich is a crappy way to run a business or a country, for that matter.

As opposed to trying to be all things to all people, which is what has been going on for the last 50 years? If you reread your first couple of sentences, you'll almost get why polls suck - because really no matter how you conduct them they really ain't accurate. Thanks for making my point for me.

 

On another note, after being a fan of the Bills through the 70's and 80's (Bruce Mathison under center), being a fan of yours is easy.

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I'm way better at this stuff than Bruce Mathison ever was at football.

[X. Benedict]

Christian?

523147[/snapback]

 

I was thinking of the entire range from Aboriginal to Zoastrian.

[IowaBill]

As opposed to trying to be all things to all people, which is what has been going on for the last 50 years?  If you reread your first couple of sentences, you'll almost get why polls suck - because really no matter how you conduct them they really ain't accurate.  Thanks for making my point for me.

I'm way better at this stuff than Bruce Mathison ever was at football.

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I get it, you don't like polls. I don't think we will ever agree on an altrenative method then of determining the interests or ideas of the general public, or at least the voting public. If you can suggest a different way of determining such things, lets hear it. If we don't at least try to determine what the voting public wants, the we will have an elitist ruling class system. I can't believe you think that is a good idea either. I we are going to have a government "by the people, for the people, etc", lets at least find out what "the people" think.

 

Congratulations on being better at "this stuff" (whatever that may be) than Bruce Mathison was at football. Lofty standards, indeed.

[Alaska Darin]

I get it, you don't like polls. I don't think we will ever agree on an altrenative method then of determining the interests or ideas of the general public, or at least the voting public.  If you can suggest a different way of determining such things, lets hear it.  If we don't at least try to determine what the voting public wants, the we will have an elitist ruling class system. 

What exactly would you say we have now?

 

I can't believe you think that is a good idea either.  I we are going to have a government "by the people, for the people, etc", lets at least find out what "the people" think.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. This sure as hell ain't government by or for the people and hasn't been for a long time. It's government for sale to the highest bidder, regardless of how bad it is for the people or the long term health of the country.

 

Congratulations on being better at "this stuff" (whatever that may be) than Bruce Mathison was at football.  Lofty standards, indeed.

523476[/snapback]

Thanks man.