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Posted
Not true if he'd taken that ball back that he dropped, not that easy Im sure, for a TD I'd be very happy. If he made a stop in a big situation I'd be happy. Maybe Grey has put NC in ugly schemes but he sure looks bad out there as of late.

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There is an old saying about corners and why they aren't WR's...

 

Who was the last CB we had that had as much talent as him? For YEARS we have been plagued with DBs that can't catch for crap. Thomas Smith, Antoine Winfield...

 

We have bad team with no direction. We are fundamentally flawed and that affects the good players too. I think Nate is a better corner than some of his games this year. If he leaves, we better have a plan that will make the team better. Getting rid of him for the sake of vengence is counter-productive to building a winning program.

Posted
You cannot do what? Tackle a guy while he's in bounds and fighting for yardage? If he'd have let him go, you'd have had a fit about his soft play.

 

And sorry to come across as sanctimonious, Coach Gray.  :(

As for pressing and getting beat deep, here's something you can learn from my "football genius". That 10yrd cushion doesn't make it easier to prevent getting beat deep, it makes it harder.

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That was his point. Even when they play soft, they still get beat deep. So why not mix in some press coverage and actually make the receiver work a bit to even get off the line of scrimmage once in a while. Mix it up....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

t

Posted
As for pressing and getting beat deep, here's something you can learn from my "football genius". That 10yrd cushion doesn't make it easier to prevent getting beat deep, it makes it harder.

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Hey, I'm not saying I enjoy the soft cushion coverage. I hate it. But perhaps he's doing it because he KNOWS that NC, McGee and others can't handle the press.

Posted
There is an old saying about corners and why they aren't WR's...

 

Who was the last CB we had that had as much talent as him?  For YEARS we have been plagued with DBs that can't catch for crap.  Thomas Smith, Antoine Winfield...

 

We have bad team with no direction.  We are fundamentally flawed and that affects the good players too.  I think Nate is a better corner than some of his games this year.  If he leaves, we better have a plan that will make the team better.  Getting rid of him for the sake of vengence is counter-productive to building a winning program.

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But I don't want to give him a huge deal if he stays. Maybe a new DC would help NC....honestly playing 12 yards off the LOS cant help any corner.

Posted
I guess I'm one of those morons who needs his post removed.  :(  Yet I find it strange to post a vigorous defense of a player that probably has 4 games left in his Bills career.

 

If he was as good as advertised, would we need to defend him ? It can't be all just blind bashing.

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I'm not convinced he's leaving yet.

And I think the vast majority of it is blind bashing. You never hear people saying that he bites on too many double moves, jumps too many routes and leaves the edge too early because he's hungry for contact. Those are the problems in his game but all we ever hear is "duh, the playmaker SUCKS!!!!"

 

I will add that it's likely that people get on Nate Clements around here (as we do with McGahee) because he's proclaimed himself to be the best without proving it on the field.

He proclaimed himself to be the best at the beginning of the year, when he was coming off a season where he had proved it on the field by being the best cornerback in the NFL in 2004.

 

But perhaps he's doing it because he KNOWS that NC, McGee and others can't handle the press.

This is where the argument makes no sense, because being able to engage a guy at the LOS is easier than giving a cushion and then having to figure out how not to get your cushion broken, while still defending underneath, all the while never even being able to put a single hand on a guy. Playing that kind of cushion is way harder to handle than playing press.

Posted
Since Nate has been such a lively topic of conversation, I thought I'd throw my two cents in.

 

>Nate has had his share of struggles this year; for a couple weeks right around the Game 5 mark, vs San Diego, on a couple plays yesterday. But these struggles were entirely predictable, in fact they were predicted; and not by the many members of the "he gave up a completion, he sucks" crowd who know next to nothing about defense and even less about corner play. But the same individual who predicted these problems also knows that that they can be fixed.

 

>I've even heard some ridiculous comments about how Clements has no heart. What-f'ing-ever. The guy sticks his face in the blender as much or more than any corner on the planet, but yeah, he really lacks heart.  :(

 

>As a former DB, Jerry Gray really ought to know better. I don't think I've ever seen a defensive coach who so consistently puts his corners in such untenable positions. He never lets his guys press, constantly allowing opposing receivers free releases and then somehow our corners are supposed to interfere with the timing of a route, not let their cushion get broken by a guy with a 10yrd head start, defend short zones and cover downfield all while being denied the opportunity to create contact early in the route. Starting a play 10-12 yrds off teh LOS is occasionally a good place to attack a route from (i.e. 3rd/10, 2/20, etc), but starting a play 10-12 yrds off the LOS is an absolutely horrible place to defend a route from. Yet our corners are asked to do those on every conceivable down and distance and against every conceivable offensive set. It is absurd and reason #2 that Jerry Gray deserves free air-fare out of town. Yesterday.

 

>I've also heard repeated commentary about Nate's "stupid penalties", and I assume people are referring to that ridiculous call in the 4thqrtr yesterday. Can somebody please explain to me how it is a personal foul to throw down a receiver before the whistle is blown when he has both feet in bounds and is still fighting for yardage? I suppose Clements should have just let him go and hope an official calls his forward progress stopped for .015 seconds.  :( 

 

>I find it hard to believe that yesterday's game could be a catalyst for all this Clements bashing. The guy is second on the team in tackles, defends a few passes (the last one vs the white-hot Chambers  from the 1yrdline with :20 seconds left), gives up no touchdowns, forces a fumble, draws penalties and keeps the handful of catches he allowed right in front of him where he quickly secures the tackle. Yet somehow he becomes a primary target for crtiticism because he's around the ball and people know what # he wears. For future reference, of all the wildly under-rated Chambers' huge numbers, less than half of them came against Clements.

 

>I imagine a few people are going to call me a moron.......again. They'll probably be the same people who called me a moron when I explained why I was worried about Nate before the season. Before they make fools of themselves any further, they should realize that I've been playing corner for 20 odd years (some of them very odd:-), often across from a former NFL All-Pro, and have learned a thing or two about the position over that time. So if you're going to do nothing but screech about how much Clements sucks with no analysis to further your point, then don't waste either of our time as I officially declare this a moron-free thread. i.e. if you act like a moron, your post will be removed.

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simon, i'm sorry, but the guy is having a down year. you're neglecting to mention the lack of INTs that he used to get. yesterday was a perfect example -- he should have took an easy one back for 6, but dropped it. that didn't happen in 03 and 04. he was beaten like a drum in the chargers game, and certainly gave up more than he took away against a one-legged randy moss.

 

is he capable of being one of the best cbs in the league? of course -- he certainly has the talent and attitude for it. however, since about game 5, he's really gone into the tank.

 

i think the bills should keep him in any case -- jabari greer at starting cb isn't a reassuring thought.

Posted
>I've also heard repeated commentary about Nate's "stupid penalties", and I assume people are referring to that ridiculous call in the 4thqrtr yesterday. Can somebody please explain to me how it is a personal foul to throw down a receiver before the whistle is blown when he has both feet in bounds and is still fighting for yardage? I suppose Clements should have just let him go and hope an official calls his forward progress stopped for .015 seconds.  :( 

This is only a side item from the game and this discussion, but couldn't believe that call. Later in the game Parrish caught a ball in the middle of the field and it looked like 3 or four Dolphins were carrying him on their shoulders in a funeral procession before they threw him to the ground - was waiting for the call there...

Posted
simon, i'm sorry, but the guy is having a down year.

 

Why are you sorry? The first line of my post was "Nate has had his share of struggles this year".

 

This is only a side item from the game and this discussion, but couldn't believe that call. Later in the game Parrish caught a ball in the middle of the field and it looked like 3 or four Dolphins were carrying him on their shoulders in a funeral procession before they threw him to the ground - was waiting for the call there...

Or maybe a call when Losman got punched in the head by a blitzing DB well after the ball was out.

Or maybe a call when he got speared in the back when he was already laying on the ground?

How in the hell can you allow a QB to take multiple cheap shots but then throw a flag at a guy who's tackling a live ball carrier? The lack of consistency is astounding.

 

When you consider the bogus call on Clements in combination with the bogus call on JLynch in the Den/KC game, you gotta wonder if the boss refs didn't send a call down this week for the zebras to do more to protect those poor widdle put upon weceivers.

It's no wonder most of them act like self-important prima donna jackasses when every league rule and enforcement ovcer the last 20 years has been an attempt to put them in the limelight with clean jerseys and shiny helmets. :(

Posted

Simon, I for one don't think you are a moron at all as I think your observations about DB play (the difficulty of doing good coverage when your D style does not allow you to press cover) are gemerally good. However. I do think some of your conclusions assume some circumstances that may (or may not) be true in in terms of what happened and why things are being done the way they are done.

 

1. The call on Clements for the personal foul seemed a bit bizarre to me also-

 

There is little that a player can do to control another player exactly as he is taking him to the ground and since NC wrestled the WR to the ground when theWR was well in play it seemed over the top to label it a personal fould. In fact, my thought from seeing the play in real speed was that the call was on Milloy for teeing up on a WR in the grasp (actually when I saw that the WR was well in bounds even this call would have been outrageous).

 

My guess as to why this call on NC was made also may well have included something that NC said as he legitimately threw the WR to the ground and though he seemed to be in the face of the prone WR based on the body language and probably said something. I do not know that he did or did not.

 

My sense is the ref should have kept the flag in his pocket, but some combination of an aggressive hit and some extra curricular langauage by NC may have prompted the call legit or not.

 

2. The lack of press coverage may be a reasonable response-

 

One of the main things which seems true about this Bills D is taht they are not getting significant one on one pressure from the front four. There certainly are a number of specific plays where Schobel does a great rush or Adams beats a DT with his explosive first step, but just as often Schobel gets handled one on one or Adams guesses wrong and Bills braintrust does not have enough confidence in their CBs to have them press or take a player one on one as they will get beat some of the time and if this coincides with mistakes on the pass rush the other side may get 7.

 

The sag CB coverage seems to me to be the product of a weak pass rush which does not force the OL to shift toward two or even one rusher with a double team. In addition, the problems our O has scoring points makes giving up a TD a huge thing and lack of confidence in our pass rush may be a legit reason for the sag coverage.

Posted

>I've even heard some ridiculous comments about how Clements has no heart. What-f'ing-ever. The guy sticks his face in the blender as much or more than any corner on the planet, but yeah, he really lacks heart.  :(

 

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Did you hear yesterday's post game interview?

 

Also, did you really just say that you've been playing Cornerback for the last 20 years? In what league? What's your 40 time?

Posted

Clements "claims" to be the best "shutdown" CB in the league and should be the top paid. He "used" to field punts (increasing his value) but Parrish has taken that away from him. A couple of questions:

 

1. If he is the best shutdown CB, why does he have to give the receiver a 10-15 yard cushion on most of the plays?

 

2. If he is the best shutdown CB, why are teams throwing his way so much lately and away from McGee?

 

3. They can discuss the two turnovers in the red zone as critical and they were, but why do we not hear about how Nate dropped a sure TD interception attempt that probably would have put the game away?

 

The answer is he is without a doubt one of the most overrated players on our team. If this guy makes the Pro Bowl, I will puke. :(

Posted
Bills braintrust does not have enough confidence in their CBs to have them press or take a player one on one as they will get beat some of the time and if this coincides with mistakes on the pass rush the other side may get 7.

 

You see to be under the impression that playig 10yrds off the LOS will somehow make it easier for you to play defense downfield. This is not the case. Being able to play at the LOS makes it "easier" to defend down the field, particularly when you possess the kind of speed that Clements does.

 

 

Did you hear yesterday's post game interview?

Also, did you really just say that you've been playing Cornerback for the last 20 years? In what league? What's your 40 time?

So you want me to ignore all the thigns I see on the field week after week and judge Clement's passion for the game based on a press conference? :(

I play in an amateur league (i.e. we don't get paid) here in Western Pennsyltucky. And I haven't the foggiest idea what my 40 time is. Considering how much dirt I have to deal just to keep up with these young track stars, I assume it's not very good any more. :(

Posted
Since Nate has been such a lively topic of conversation, I thought I'd throw my two cents in.

 

>Nate has had his share of struggles this year; for a couple weeks right around the Game 5 mark, vs San Diego, on a couple plays yesterday. But these struggles were entirely predictable, in fact they were predicted; and not by the many members of the "he gave up a completion, he sucks" crowd who know next to nothing about defense and even less about corner play. But the same individual who predicted these problems also knows that that they can be fixed.

 

>I've even heard some ridiculous comments about how Clements has no heart. What-f'ing-ever. The guy sticks his face in the blender as much or more than any corner on the planet, but yeah, he really lacks heart.  :(

 

>As a former DB, Jerry Gray really ought to know better. I don't think I've ever seen a defensive coach who so consistently puts his corners in such untenable positions. He never lets his guys press, constantly allowing opposing receivers free releases and then somehow our corners are supposed to interfere with the timing of a route, not let their cushion get broken by a guy with a 10yrd head start, defend short zones and cover downfield all while being denied the opportunity to create contact early in the route. Starting a play 10-12 yrds off teh LOS is occasionally a good place to attack a route from (i.e. 3rd/10, 2/20, etc), but starting a play 10-12 yrds off the LOS is an absolutely horrible place to defend a route from. Yet our corners are asked to do those on every conceivable down and distance and against every conceivable offensive set. It is absurd and reason #2 that Jerry Gray deserves free air-fare out of town. Yesterday.

 

>I've also heard repeated commentary about Nate's "stupid penalties", and I assume people are referring to that ridiculous call in the 4thqrtr yesterday. Can somebody please explain to me how it is a personal foul to throw down a receiver before the whistle is blown when he has both feet in bounds and is still fighting for yardage? I suppose Clements should have just let him go and hope an official calls his forward progress stopped for .015 seconds.  :( 

 

>I find it hard to believe that yesterday's game could be a catalyst for all this Clements bashing. The guy is second on the team in tackles, defends a few passes (the last one vs the white-hot Chambers  from the 1yrdline with :20 seconds left), gives up no touchdowns, forces a fumble, draws penalties and keeps the handful of catches he allowed right in front of him where he quickly secures the tackle. Yet somehow he becomes a primary target for crtiticism because he's around the ball and people know what # he wears. For future reference, of all the wildly under-rated Chambers' huge numbers, less than half of them came against Clements.

 

>I imagine a few people are going to call me a moron.......again. They'll probably be the same people who called me a moron when I explained why I was worried about Nate before the season. Before they make fools of themselves any further, they should realize that I've been playing corner for 20 odd years (some of them very odd:-), often across from a former NFL All-Pro, and have learned a thing or two about the position over that time. So if you're going to do nothing but screech about how much Clements sucks with no analysis to further your point, then don't waste either of our time as I officially declare this a moron-free thread. i.e. if you act like a moron, your post will be removed.

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Thank you for bringing some sanity to this board.

Posted
Clements "claims" to be the best "shutdown" CB in the league and should be the top paid.  He "used" to field punts (increasing his value) but Parrish has taken that away from him.  A couple of questions:

 

1.  If he is the best shutdown CB, why does he have to give the receiver a 10-15 yard cushion on most of the plays?

 

2.  If he is the best shutdown CB, why are teams throwing his way so much lately and away from McGee?

 

3.  They can discuss the two turnovers in the red zone as critical and they were, but why do we not hear about how Nate dropped a sure TD interception attempt that probably would have put the game away?

 

The answer is he is without a doubt one of the most overrated players on our team.  If this guy makes the Pro Bowl, I will puke. :(

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Because that is the technique that the coaches are calling for on that particular play. Come on. You know that.

Posted
If he is the best shutdown CB, why does he have to give the receiver a 10-15 yard cushion on most of the plays

Because his defensive co-ordinator is a dumb ass who should know better. And so should you.

 

If he is the best shutdown CB, why are teams throwing his way so much lately and away from McGee

They are? I guess they throw away from McGee when he isn't even on the field. Fortunately they don't go after his replacement as Greer was hardly noticable in his place :(

 

They can discuss the two turnovers in the red zone as critical and they were, but why do we not hear about how Nate dropped a sure TD interception attempt that probably would have put the game away

I've heard about it at least 10 times already this morning.

Who else do you want to hear it from, George Bush?

 

The answer is he is without a doubt one of the most overrated players on our team.

Overated by whom? The dozens of people on this board who are ripping on him? The media who rips on him? The rest of the know-nothings who see a ball and a stat sheet and think they know what they're talking about? You? Who are all tehse people who overrate him? You must mean professional scouts and opponents who regularly say good things about him. But what the hell would they know compared to somebody like you who thinks Clements sucks because he plays 10-15 yrds off the ball.

Posted

Champ Bailey did not have a good year last year IMO, but I don't the Broncos are too upset that they gave him that much jack, cause he's a player & a difference-maker.. and he's back this year. Similarly, I think you've got to consider a lot of favorable things before you cut ties with Nate.

- his age... still got a whole lot of years left

- you're not paying for potential... you're paying for a proven player who is unfortunately having a bad year on a bad team with bad leadership.

 

At this time, there are too many unanswered questions with 4 games left regarding the future of this team, from TD to the practice squad. Let's see how everything plays out first before showing Nate the door.

 

I've been playing corner for 20 odd years (some of them very odd:-), often across from a former NFL All-Pro

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Really? :( Who?
Posted

As a frequent Nate basher but not hater, I'll throw my two cents in.

 

1. Here is my problem with Nate: The emblematic play of Nate's year was the dropped interception. Most fans will say that was an easy TD and the playmaker didn't make the play. When I looked at the replay, what stuck out to me is that was one the quickest breaks on a ball I have ever seen a CB make. He was on his back foot, planted and exploded on the ball, making up a few yards in a couple steps. I don't think more than a handful of players in the league would have been in a position to drop that ball that looked so easy. But he did. He is simply not making the plays when he has as much talent as any player at his position in the league. Having as much talent doesn't mean as much production. That was a Nate Clements dropped TD. Few if any other players would have been on that ball so fast in order to drop it. But if he is going to be great, he has to make it a catch and TD, too. It almost certainly would have won the game and we could have applauded him instead or harrassing him.

 

2. Nate has had a mediocre year, with just as many bone-headed and terrible plays as playmaker plays. More this year than any other year in fact. He has been flat beat in one on one coverage more times than any in his career over the course of the season. But that's just for him, not compared to everyday CB's.

 

3. I agree with Simon that the defensive coaches often put him in a terrible position, especially in their soft zones. The Bills were killing the Dolphins with their regular defense and then they went away from it with 23-3 lead. How many times does this have to blow up in coaches faces before they stop it?

 

4. In the first period Nate was beat bad and then came around from behind and knocked the ball loose for the fumble. So he was partly responsible for one of our first TDs.

 

5. The penalty was three things to me: Mildly unnecessary by Nate, rarely called against a DB so close to in bounds, and never would have been called had not Milloy smacked the Dolphin which made it look way more flagrant than Nate threw him down. If Milloy doesn't touch the guy, there is no penalty called.

 

6. That is the first totally bad game I have ever seen him play, and I get on him as much as anyone. And he still forced a turnover and made a great play in the endzone on second down with 10 seconds or so left. I think he gets beat on coverage far more than his biggest fans allow but he doesn't usually have bad games just bad singular plays or a few of them. I get on him because he could and perhaps should be as good as people say he is. He has more talent than any CB in the league. And could play like that. He just doesn't. In that way, he is like this team.

Posted
As a frequent Nate basher but not hater, I'll throw my two cents in.

 

1. Here is my problem with Nate: The emblematic play of Nate's year was the dropped interception. Most fans will say that was an easy TD and the playmaker didn't make the play. When I looked at the replay, what stuck out to me is that was one the quickest breaks on a ball I have ever seen a CB make. He was on his back foot, planted and exploded on the ball, making up a few yards in a couple steps. I don't think more than a handful of players in the league would have been in a position to drop that ball that looked so easy. But he did. He is simply not making the plays when he has as much talent as any player at his position in the league. Having as much talent doesn't mean as much production. That was a Nate Clements dropped TD. Few if any other players would have been on that ball so fast in order to drop it. But if he is going to be great, he has to make it a catch and TD, too. It almost certainly would have won the game and we could have applauded him instead or harrassing him.

 

2. Nate has had a mediocre year, with just as many bone-headed and terrible plays as playmaker plays. More this year than any other year in fact. He has been flat beat in one on one coverage more times than any in his career over the course of the season. But that's just for him, not compared to everyday CB's.

 

3. I agree with Simon that the defensive coaches often put him in a terrible position, especially in their soft zones. The Bills were killing the Dolphins with their regular defense and then they went away from it with 23-3 lead. How many times does this have to blow up in coaches faces before they stop it?

 

4. In the first period Nate was beat bad and then came around from behind and knocked the ball loose for the fumble. So he was partly responsible for one of our first TDs.

 

5. The penalty was three things to me: Mildly unnecessary by Nate, rarely called against a DB so close to in bounds, and never would have been called had not Milloy smacked the Dolphin which made it look way more flagrant than Nate threw him down. If Milloy doesn't touch the guy, there is no penalty called.

 

6. That is the first totally bad game I have ever seen him play, and I get on him as much as anyone. And he still forced a turnover and made a great play in the endzone on second down with 10 seconds or so left. I think he gets beat on coverage far more than his biggest fans allow but he doesn't usually have bad games just bad singular plays or a few of them. I get on him because he could and perhaps should be as good as people say he is. He has more talent than any CB in the league. And could play like that. He just doesn't. In that way, he is like this team.

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great post, but in making him emblematic of the team, you're presuming that the bills overall are a talented team. they aren't, and are in the bottom half of the league talentwise. they have a borderline qb (he may get better, of course), one really talented WR alongside a slowing, disgruntled vet and some nonentities, a pretty good RB who doesn't fumble, a terrible offensive line, no capable tight end, one very good defensive end in schoebel alongside a group of nonentities on the d-line, a good cb in clements, a promising-but-hardly-great (and also injured) cb in mcgee, aging safeties (one of whom, milloy, looks about done), and a mediocre LB crew. and damione shelton - forgot about him.

Posted
As a frequent Nate basher but not hater, I'll throw my two cents in.

 

1. Here is my problem with Nate: The emblematic play of Nate's year was the dropped interception. Most fans will say that was an easy TD and the playmaker didn't make the play. When I looked at the replay, what stuck out to me is that was one the quickest breaks on a ball I have ever seen a CB make. He was on his back foot, planted and exploded on the ball, making up a few yards in a couple steps. I don't think more than a handful of players in the league would have been in a position to drop that ball that looked so easy. But he did. He is simply not making the plays when he has as much talent as any player at his position in the league. Having as much talent doesn't mean as much production. That was a Nate Clements dropped TD. Few if any other players would have been on that ball so fast in order to drop it. But if he is going to be great, he has to make it a catch and TD, too. It almost certainly would have won the game and we could have applauded him instead or harrassing him.

 

2. Nate has had a mediocre year, with just as many bone-headed and terrible plays as playmaker plays. More this year than any other year in fact. He has been flat beat in one on one coverage more times than any in his career over the course of the season. But that's just for him, not compared to everyday CB's.

 

3. I agree with Simon that the defensive coaches often put him in a terrible position, especially in their soft zones. The Bills were killing the Dolphins with their regular defense and then they went away from it with 23-3 lead. How many times does this have to blow up in coaches faces before they stop it?

 

4. In the first period Nate was beat bad and then came around from behind and knocked the ball loose for the fumble. So he was partly responsible for one of our first TDs.

 

5. The penalty was three things to me: Mildly unnecessary by Nate, rarely called against a DB so close to in bounds, and never would have been called had not Milloy smacked the Dolphin which made it look way more flagrant than Nate threw him down. If Milloy doesn't touch the guy, there is no penalty called.

 

6. That is the first totally bad game I have ever seen him play, and I get on him as much as anyone. And he still forced a turnover and made a great play in the endzone on second down with 10 seconds or so left. I think he gets beat on coverage far more than his biggest fans allow but he doesn't usually have bad games just bad singular plays or a few of them. I get on him because he could and perhaps should be as good as people say he is. He has more talent than any CB in the league. And could play like that. He just doesn't. In that way, he is like this team.

521046[/snapback]

 

In reference to #6, did you see his performance against San Diego? I was there and he was easily beat on two TDs and looked pathetic. Now, I am not saying he is the worst CB. All I am saying is for someone who believes he is the top shutdown corner and should be compensated as the best, he certainly has not come close to backing up those statements.

 

Nate seemed to play better before all these self proclamations. Maybe he put too much pressure on himself to perform. But, I do know that Miami was going straight after him yesterday on numerous occasions and Chambers had him for lunch.

 

So, where does he fit in? He is a good cornerback with a salary comparable to about 50-60% of what he thinks he is worth, or about $3.0 - 3.5 million per year. No way do we place the franchise tag on him. That would be a waste of salary cap space.

 

And lastly, I believe we extended our best cornerback in McGee who, when healthy, makes plays and does not leave much separation between himself and the receiver.

 

:blink:

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