Simon Posted December 5, 2005 Posted December 5, 2005 Since Nate has been such a lively topic of conversation, I thought I'd throw my two cents in. >Nate has had his share of struggles this year; for a couple weeks right around the Game 5 mark, vs San Diego, on a couple plays yesterday. But these struggles were entirely predictable, in fact they were predicted; and not by the many members of the "he gave up a completion, he sucks" crowd who know next to nothing about defense and even less about corner play. But the same individual who predicted these problems also knows that that they can be fixed. >I've even heard some ridiculous comments about how Clements has no heart. What-f'ing-ever. The guy sticks his face in the blender as much or more than any corner on the planet, but yeah, he really lacks heart. >As a former DB, Jerry Gray really ought to know better. I don't think I've ever seen a defensive coach who so consistently puts his corners in such untenable positions. He never lets his guys press, constantly allowing opposing receivers free releases and then somehow our corners are supposed to interfere with the timing of a route, not let their cushion get broken by a guy with a 10yrd head start, defend short zones and cover downfield all while being denied the opportunity to create contact early in the route. Starting a play 10-12 yrds off teh LOS is occasionally a good place to attack a route from (i.e. 3rd/10, 2/20, etc), but starting a play 10-12 yrds off the LOS is an absolutely horrible place to defend a route from. Yet our corners are asked to do those on every conceivable down and distance and against every conceivable offensive set. It is absurd and reason #2 that Jerry Gray deserves free air-fare out of town. Yesterday. >I've also heard repeated commentary about Nate's "stupid penalties", and I assume people are referring to that ridiculous call in the 4thqrtr yesterday. Can somebody please explain to me how it is a personal foul to throw down a receiver before the whistle is blown when he has both feet in bounds and is still fighting for yardage? I suppose Clements should have just let him go and hope an official calls his forward progress stopped for .015 seconds. >I find it hard to believe that yesterday's game could be a catalyst for all this Clements bashing. The guy is second on the team in tackles, defends a few passes (the last one vs the white-hot Chambers from the 1yrdline with :20 seconds left), gives up no touchdowns, forces a fumble, draws penalties and keeps the handful of catches he allowed right in front of him where he quickly secures the tackle. Yet somehow he becomes a primary target for crtiticism because he's around the ball and people know what # he wears. For future reference, of all the wildly under-rated Chambers' huge numbers, less than half of them came against Clements. >I imagine a few people are going to call me a moron.......again. They'll probably be the same people who called me a moron when I explained why I was worried about Nate before the season. Before they make fools of themselves any further, they should realize that I've been playing corner for 20 odd years (some of them very odd:-), often across from a former NFL All-Pro, and have learned a thing or two about the position over that time. So if you're going to do nothing but screech about how much Clements sucks with no analysis to further your point, then don't waste either of our time as I officially declare this a moron-free thread. i.e. if you act like a moron, your post will be removed.
ch19079 Posted December 5, 2005 Posted December 5, 2005 i just want to say he wasnt always covering chambers. i think hes still a great CB. that personal foul should not have been called.
GG Posted December 5, 2005 Posted December 5, 2005 >I've also heard repeated commentary about Nate's "stupid penalties", and I assume people are referring to that ridiculous call in the 4thqrtr yesterday. Can somebody please explain to me how it is a personal foul to throw down a receiver before the whistle is blown when he has both feet in bounds and is still fighting for yardage? I suppose Clements should have just let him go and hope an official calls his forward progress stopped for .015 seconds. 520776[/snapback] Actually, the hit was made much worse when Milloy came in and blasted Gilmore(?) from the top as Clements was turning him around.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted December 5, 2005 Posted December 5, 2005 i just want to say he wasnt always covering chambers. i think hes still a great CB. that personal foul should not have been called. 520780[/snapback] You can NOT do that in today's NFL. It was a foolish mistake that contibuted greatly to this team's crushing defeat. And as for Simon's sanctimonious tone re: cushion coverage....perhaps the CBs, including Nate can't HANDLE press coverage without getting burnt deep time and again.
ch19079 Posted December 5, 2005 Posted December 5, 2005 You can NOT do that in today's NFL. It was a foolish mistake that contibuted greatly to this team's crushing defeat. And as for Simon's sanctimonious tone re: cushion coverage....perhaps the CBs, including Nate can't HANDLE press coverage without getting burnt deep time and again. 520787[/snapback] you mean you cant take a player to the ground when hes fighitng for extra yards. the ref didnt call the play dead untill the WR was already in the air. he coudnt stop at that point. i also forgot, clements should have had a INT and a TD.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted December 5, 2005 Posted December 5, 2005 i also forgot, clements should have had a INT and a TD. 520798[/snapback] Should have. Hell, any average CB would have made that play, it was like pitch-and-catch.
Simon Posted December 5, 2005 Author Posted December 5, 2005 You can NOT do that in today's NFL. It was a foolish mistake that contibuted greatly to this team's crushing defeat. And as for Simon's sanctimonious tone re: cushion coverage....perhaps the CBs, including Nate can't HANDLE press coverage without getting burnt deep time and again. 520787[/snapback] You cannot do what? Tackle a guy while he's in bounds and fighting for yardage? If he'd have let him go, you'd have had a fit about his soft play. And sorry to come across as sanctimonious, Coach Gray. As for pressing and getting beat deep, here's something you can learn from my "football genius". That 10yrd cushion doesn't make it easier to prevent getting beat deep, it makes it harder.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted December 5, 2005 Posted December 5, 2005 You cannot do what? Tackle a guy while he's in bounds and fighting for yardage? If he'd have let him go, you'd have had a fit about his soft play.And sorry to come across as sanctimonious, Coach Gray. 520824[/snapback] How about just giving him a shove out of bounds? You have to KNOW the refs are gonna call that one. Especially if you're an experienced vet like Nate purports to be.
bluv Posted December 5, 2005 Posted December 5, 2005 i just want to say he wasnt always covering chambers. i think hes still a great CB. that personal foul should not have been called. 520780[/snapback] My sentiments exactly. On that long pass play that was a busted 2 deep zone coverage where the safties were split wide with Fletcher covering the middle. I didn't even realize Chambers had such a great game until it was all over and the stats unveiled as I was more aware of the drops Chambers had; it is not like he was constantly toasting Clemens for all those catches. The coaching staff let this team down when it stopped playing to win and started experimenting with personell groups, especially on offense, that Parish pass is a clear example.
Mark VI Posted December 5, 2005 Posted December 5, 2005 Just an observation. Nate wants Champ Bailey $$ ( total Contract is 62 Mil ) . Will someoneone offer that to him ? Probably not, but close to it. With our current shortage in the trenches, is that where you spend your big $$ ? He can't stop the run or help block. Outside of QB, a team should then spend the $$ on the lines. I realize the Coaches are NOT playing to the strength of their players. Example - Milloy was never asked to cover in NE. He was used as a 4th,5th LB to play up on the line and support the run. The Corners are not getting the support deep from our Safties. Man coverage is a far better alternative. No matter now. 4-8 speaks for itself. Coaching and lack of quality Lineman on both O and D still seem to be the biggest problem on this team. Nate may be a great physical talent but "10 cent brain" syndrome seems to afflict him at critical times all too often. That's when you start to question his true worth. If we chop Williams, Moulds, Bennie Anderson and a couple other Vets, then we take a pretty steep hit in dead cap $$, since all have remaining years on their deals. After that, say we give Nate his deal. How much cap $$ do we have left ? I'd say about 20 dollars, which means another year of breakdowns along a patchwork OL and small DL. No thank you.
Simon Posted December 5, 2005 Author Posted December 5, 2005 How about just giving him a shove out of bounds? You have to KNOW the refs are gonna call that one. If he could have shoved him out of bounds, that's probably what he'd ahve done. But Chambers had all the momentum, Clements was on his heels just trying not to give ground and he took him down the only way he could. How the hell is anyboyd supposed to KNOW teh refs are going to call a personal foul for taking down a receiver before the whistle when he's in bounds and fighting for yardage?! It was a clown call.
SDS Posted December 5, 2005 Posted December 5, 2005 How about just giving him a shove out of bounds? You have to KNOW the refs are gonna call that one. Especially if you're an experienced vet like Nate purports to be. 520826[/snapback] this is where you lose ALL objectivity. Nate is playing football and he tackled a guy. He wouldn't have come down half as hard if another guy didn't come along and smack him after Nate "no heart" took the guy off his feet. It was a ticky-tack foul called on NC. To go off on him for that just means you have turned into another hater... Nothing Nate can do or say will be good enough for you anymore.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted December 5, 2005 Posted December 5, 2005 Nothing Nate can do or say will be good enough for you anymore. 520836[/snapback] You're absolutely right. He's lost me for good. Actually, he lost me for good after the home opener last year.
Thailog80 Posted December 5, 2005 Posted December 5, 2005 this is where you lose ALL objectivity. Nate is playing football and he tackled a guy. He wouldn't have come down half as hard if another guy didn't come along and smack him after Nate "no heart" took the guy off his feet. It was a ticky-tack foul called on NC. To go off on him for that just means you have turned into another hater... Nothing Nate can do or say will be good enough for you anymore. 520836[/snapback] Not true if he'd taken that ball back that he dropped, not that easy Im sure, for a TD I'd be very happy. If he made a stop in a big situation I'd be happy. Maybe Grey has put NC in ugly schemes but he sure looks bad out there as of late.
Simon Posted December 5, 2005 Author Posted December 5, 2005 Just an observation. Nate wants Champ Bailey $$ ( total Contract is 62 Mil ) . Will someoneone offer that to him ? Probably not, but close to it. With our current shortage in the trenches, is that where you spend your big $$ ? He can't stop the run or help block. Outside of QB, a team should then spend the $$ on the lines. I realize the Coaches are NOT playing to the strength of their players. Example - Milloy was never asked to cover in NE. He was used as a 4th,5th LB to play up on the line and support the run. The Corners are not getting the support deep from our Safties. Man coverage is a far better alternative. No matter now. 4-8 speaks for itself. Coaching and lack of quality Lineman on both O and D still seem to be the biggest problem on this team. Nate may be a great physical talent but "10 cent brain" syndrome seems to afflict him at critical times all too often. That's when you start to question his true worth. If we chop Williams, Moulds, Bennie Anderson and a couple other Vets, then we take a pretty steep hit in dead cap $$, since all have remaining years on their deals. After that, say we give Nate his deal. How much cap $$ do we have left ? I'd say about 20 dollars, which means another year of breakdowns along a patchwork OL and small DL. No thank you. 520833[/snapback] A fine post, but this might fit better in one of the threads that actually has something to do with contracts and caps.
RuntheDamnBall Posted December 5, 2005 Posted December 5, 2005 >As a former DB, Jerry Gray really ought to know better. I don't think I've ever seen a defensive coach who so consistently puts his corners in such untenable positions. He never lets his guys press, constantly allowing opposing receivers free releases and then somehow our corners are supposed to interfere with the timing of a route, not let their cushion get broken by a guy with a 10yrd head start, defend short zones and cover downfield all while being denied the opportunity to create contact early in the route. Starting a play 10-12 yrds off teh LOS is occasionally a good place to attack a route from (i.e. 3rd/10, 2/20, etc), but starting a play 10-12 yrds off the LOS is an absolutely horrible place to defend a route from. Yet our corners are asked to do those on every conceivable down and distance and against every conceivable offensive set. It is absurd and reason #2 that Jerry Gray deserves free air-fare out of town. Yesterday. 520776[/snapback] So right, Simon. We've watched them get burned game after game with soft coverage schemes, while at the same time our receivers get beat with the press. Either these coaches are not paying attention or they are as stubborn as they are dumb. You give 'em 10 yards every time, they're bound to get something. And it's clearly not helping them stop the deep route when it counts, either, so what is it with this "strategy?" >I've also heard repeated commentary about Nate's "stupid penalties", and I assume people are referring to that ridiculous call in the 4thqrtr yesterday. Can somebody please explain to me how it is a personal foul to throw down a receiver before the whistle is blown when he has both feet in bounds and is still fighting for yardage? I suppose Clements should have just let him go and hope an official calls his forward progress stopped for .015 seconds. 520776[/snapback] That was a BS call. Fine, the D blew it, but BS calls keep a drive alive and that one was a biggie. And I don't want to hear anyone else talking about some Bills fan syndrome of complaining about the refs. Say what you want about the others (like the defensive holding that the networks never like to show for some reason -- it'd be nice to be able to see what's going on there), but that call was a very, very poor one. >I find it hard to believe that yesterday's game could be a catalyst for all this Clements bashing. The guy is second on the team in tackles, defends a few passes (the last one vs the white-hot Chambers from the 1yrdline with :20 seconds left), gives up no touchdowns, forces a fumble, draws penalties and keeps the handful of catches he allowed right in front of him where he quickly secures the tackle. Yet somehow he becomes a primary target for crtiticism because he's around the ball and people know what # he wears. For future reference, of all the wildly under-rated Chambers' huge numbers, less than half of them came against Clements. 520776[/snapback] It sucks that he was not in position to cover on the ultimate play there, I am not sure whose fault that is, but Jabari Greer is never going to make that play (he said so himself). Clements might have. I am really against overpaying the guy, but we might have to take these things into consideration. However, I am also pessimistic as to whether Jerry Gray will know what to do with whatever personnel ends up manning that spot.
stuckincincy Posted December 5, 2005 Posted December 5, 2005 As a former DB, Jerry Gray really ought to know better. I don't think I've ever seen a defensive coach who so consistently puts his corners in such untenable positions. He never lets his guys press, constantly allowing opposing receivers free releases and then somehow our corners are supposed to interfere with the timing of a route, not let their cushion get broken by a guy with a 10yrd head start, defend short zones and cover downfield all while being denied the opportunity to create contact early in the route. Starting a play 10-12 yrds off teh LOS is occasionally a good place to attack a route from (i.e. 3rd/10, 2/20, etc), but starting a play 10-12 yrds off the LOS is an absolutely horrible place to defend a route from. Yet our corners are asked to do those on every conceivable down and distance and against every conceivable offensive set. It is absurd and reason #2 that Jerry Gray deserves free air-fare out of town. Yesterday. 520776[/snapback] Quite so. I only see the Bills one or two times a season on tv, and it really stands out. Sometimes, the camera shot before the snap makes me wonder if the Bills are playing with nine players.
Simon Posted December 5, 2005 Author Posted December 5, 2005 If he made a stop in a big situation I'd be happy. You mean like knocking down a pass intended for Chambers from the 1yrd line with :30 left? Or were you looking for a bigger situation?
Mark VI Posted December 5, 2005 Posted December 5, 2005 A fine post, but this might fit better in one of the threads that actually has something to do with contracts and caps. 520842[/snapback] I guess I'm one of those morons who needs his post removed. Yet I find it strange to post a vigorous defense of a player that probably has 4 games left in his Bills career. If he was as good as advertised, would we need to defend him ? It can't be all just blind bashing.
RuntheDamnBall Posted December 5, 2005 Posted December 5, 2005 I will add that it's likely that people get on Nate Clements around here (as we do with McGahee) because he's proclaimed himself to be the best without proving it on the field. Now, McGahee can only do so much with a bad game plan and a bad offensive line, and in the same way, Clements can only do so much on talent and a prayer given a bad game plan (and a defensive line that needs another talented run-stuffing tackle). Certainly, it's worth criticizing these guys for having big mouths, but blaming a global failure on them is to miss the big picture.
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