Orton's Arm Posted December 2, 2005 Posted December 2, 2005 " [in the 2002 draft], the easy second-guess is the Bills should have traded down. But after Harrington went No. 3, nobody was looking to move up. " http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20051...?tbd1066559.asp In fact, a lot of teams would have liked to move ahead of San Diego's 5th overall pick to take Quentin Jammer.
Fezmid Posted December 2, 2005 Posted December 2, 2005 Sorry, but all of the media reports at the time said the same thing - it was a weak draft and nobody wanted to trade up. CW
Orton's Arm Posted December 2, 2005 Author Posted December 2, 2005 Sorry, but all of the media reports at the time said the same thing - it was a weak draft and nobody wanted to trade up.CW 517763[/snapback] The same media reports that said Jammer "slipped" to #5 overall?
GG Posted December 2, 2005 Posted December 2, 2005 " [in the 2002 draft], the easy second-guess is the Bills should have traded down. But after Harrington went No. 3, nobody was looking to move up. " http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20051...?tbd1066559.asp In fact, a lot of teams would have liked to move ahead of San Diego's 5th overall pick to take Quentin Jammer. 517760[/snapback] What they were looking to do and what they were willing to give up to do it, is context you should be looking at. "Alex, I would like to trade Coy Wire & Constantin Ritzmann for the first pick in the draft, for $100, please."
Fezmid Posted December 2, 2005 Posted December 2, 2005 The same media reports that said Jammer "slipped" to #5 overall? 517765[/snapback] If you want to continue being upset at what happened nearly 4 years ago, feel free. Life's a bit too short though, isn't it?
smokinandjokin Posted December 2, 2005 Posted December 2, 2005 The same media reports that said Jammer "slipped" to #5 overall? 517765[/snapback] I heard the Chargers' media/fans are not thrilled with what they've gotten out of Jammer so far. He's been decent, but not top-5 pick worthy. Hmmm...a high first rounder in 2002 out of Texas who has underperformed as a starter??
Orton's Arm Posted December 2, 2005 Author Posted December 2, 2005 If you want to continue being upset at what happened nearly 4 years ago, feel free. Life's a bit too short though, isn't it? 517774[/snapback] You are dead-on right. I'm spending too much time being upset with this pick. I haven't gotten a decent night's sleep in the last three years thanks to dwelling on this particular TD mistake. Maybe now with your advice that will all change.
Orton's Arm Posted December 2, 2005 Author Posted December 2, 2005 I heard the Chargers' media/fans are not thrilled with what they've gotten out of Jammer so far. He's been decent, but not top-5 pick worthy. Hmmm...a high first rounder in 2002 out of Texas who has underperformed as a starter?? 517778[/snapback] My point wasn't that the Bills should have taken Jammer, it was that they should have traded the #4 overall pick to someone else who wanted him.
34-78-83 Posted December 2, 2005 Posted December 2, 2005 Take Jammer when they had Clements AND Winfield?
Orton's Arm Posted December 2, 2005 Author Posted December 2, 2005 Take Jammer when they had Clements AND Winfield? 517801[/snapback] Um, dude, you might want to, you know, look at the post immediately above yours!
Dan III Posted December 2, 2005 Posted December 2, 2005 In fact, a lot of teams would have liked to move ahead of San Diego's 5th overall pick to take Quentin Jammer. 517760[/snapback] TD was asked on espn during the draft if he considered trading down.. his reply: The phone did not ring after Harrington was selected.
34-78-83 Posted December 2, 2005 Posted December 2, 2005 Um, dude, you might want to, you know, look at the post immediately above yours! 517803[/snapback] Um sorry. I have this page up all day but I work from the PC as well so sometimes a reply window is sitting there for 10 minutes before I finish with it. Nice use of italics btw
Ramius Posted December 2, 2005 Posted December 2, 2005 My point wasn't that the Bills should have taken Jammer, it was that they should have traded the #4 overall pick to someone else who wanted him. 517797[/snapback] You have to get some worth to trade down. if you read further, it wouldnt have been worth trading down a bunch of spots just to pick up a 3rd rounder. Also, as Fez said, NO ONE WANTED TO TRADE UP INTO OUR SPOT!
obie_wan Posted December 2, 2005 Posted December 2, 2005 TD was asked on espn during the draft if he considered trading down.. his reply: The phone did not ring after Harrington was selected. 517810[/snapback] maybe because Teflon Tom was so sure HE was going to draft Joey H that he did very little to cultivate possible trading partners before the draft. Maybe TD should invest in a phone on which he could make outgoing calls The consensus is that nobody wanted to trade up - but that was due to the extortion offers typically demanded. The BIlls could have asked for reasonable compensation to move down around 10 and made out big time by not being stuck with an overpaid, over weight RTwho is still skewing their salary cap.
Orton's Arm Posted December 2, 2005 Author Posted December 2, 2005 You have to get some worth to trade down. if you read further, it wouldnt have been worth trading down a bunch of spots just to pick up a 3rd rounder. Also, as Fez said, NO ONE WANTED TO TRADE UP INTO OUR SPOT! 517817[/snapback] If you look at TD's comments leading up to the draft, he said he'd received interest from other teams wanting to trade up. He also said that he's basically fallen in love with Mike Williams, and that it would take an extremely generous offer for him to trade down.
smokinandjokin Posted December 2, 2005 Posted December 2, 2005 The '02 Draft was a win-win situation for The Stadium Wall. Bills trade down at a discount (because nobody wanted to move up), Big Mike and McKinnie are drafted, and Wallers B word about TD and the state of our offensive line. -OR- Bills draft "can't miss" prospect Mike Williams at #4, Wallers B word about TD and the state of our line. Either way, everyone gets to do what they're best at: bitching and hindsight
Orton's Arm Posted December 2, 2005 Author Posted December 2, 2005 The '02 Draft was a win-win situation for The Stadium Wall. 517875[/snapback] Ultimately, TD had a job to do: fix the offensive line. He was given tools to do the job: time, draft picks, the ability to sign free agents, the ability to choose a coaching staff. He hasn't gotten the job done, as is plainly obvious from the line's putrid level of play. If fans look to see where TD went wrong, it's because it's obvious he messed up.
Rico Posted December 2, 2005 Posted December 2, 2005 maybe because Teflon Tom was so sure HE was going to draft Joey H that he did very little to cultivate possible trading partners before the draft.517871[/snapback] Could be... either that or he was still working on the Drew trade. 2002 draft + Drew trade = most disasterous off-season in Bills history.
2003Contenders Posted December 2, 2005 Posted December 2, 2005 The notion that Jammer "fell" was because everyone was sure that the Lions would take him at #3. He filled a huge need for them, and the Lions didn't seem to be in the market for a QB, as they still wanted to see what Mike McMahon had to offer. That didn't necessarily mean that Jammer carried with him a rating of a player worthy of going #3 overall. Indeed, even at the time of the draft, most pundits agreed that this class looked weak. Peppers was the only genuine blue chip prospect, and he went #2 because the expansion Texans wanted to draft their franchise QB right off the bat. It is also a myth that teams were interested in trading up for Harrington. His stock had risen rather quickly and late in the game, but at the end of the college season he was viewed as a late first rounder. The Bills were one team that was NOT interseted in him, as they had concerns about his arm strength in adverse weather conditions. Matt Millen REALLY tried to pimp that #3 pick even moreso that TD did, and he also had trouble finding a suitor. There was no consensus selection when we picked #4. I even recall Chris Berman being at a loss for who the team was going to take -- and he essentially made a guess that it would be an OT, but didn't say which one. We all know that the team has for years told him ahead of time who they were going to take in return for a promise that he'd keep it close to the vest until the final moment. That tells me that TD was not sure who he was taking with that pick either. In fact, he was hoping that a deal would be made to move down. A similar thing happened the following year, when it was actually Mort who reported the possibility of our drafting Willis. That was clearly news to Berman at the time. Recall also that MW wasn't even the consensus pick at the time within the organization. There were reports that Gregg REALLY wanted Roy Williams to the point where he was affectionately referring to him as his son, since they shared the same surname. (Does anyone ever remember the same references to Big Mike?) As I've said before, there is enough stuff for which to blame TD, where I wouldn't necessarily point the finger at him for the Mike Williams bust. I find it funny that many of the same people that want to villify TD for not paying enough attention to our OL, are the same ones that are so upset about the MW pick. Imagine how much better off our OL would be now if MW had turned out to be the perrenial All Pro RT that he was projected to be! We were picking in a bad spot, where there wasn't much in the way of value. Hind-sight is always 20-20, but we would have been much better off with John Henderson, Roy Williams, or Dwight Freeney. Henderson came with injury concerns -- and the other guys would have been considered reaches. The Colts were mocked for taking Freeney about 7-10 spots too soon. And the Cowboys actually traded down a couple spots to get RW. Maybe the lesson to be learned here is screw "draft value". Identify the guys you want at a specific position that you think will best fit your team and take them before you think someone else will. That's what Dungy did with Freeney -- and it's what the Pats have been doing for years.
Orton's Arm Posted December 2, 2005 Author Posted December 2, 2005 I find it funny that many of the same people that want to villify TD for not paying enough attention to our OL, are the same ones that are so upset about the MW pick. 517916[/snapback] Your post was well-written, and I respect that. At the same time, I'll take issue with some of the points you raised. TD has had five drafts with the Bills, meaning he's had 15 first-day picks. He's used 13% of those picks (2 out of 15) on offensive linemen. Yet 23% of your starters are offensive linemen (5 out of 22). In other words, the offensive line is getting only about half its fair share of first day draft picks. The offensive line is in shambles, and TD's lack of commitment to building it is a big reason why. The other year, Ralph Wilson was asked what the team's biggest area of need was. He said (not an exact quote), "The offensive line--both lines, really." From that point forward, the offensive line should have gotten more than its fair share of first day picks, both because of its importance, and because it was a position of need. Yet since 2002, the offensive line hasn't gotten any first-day picks. As a fan, I find this difficult to understand.
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