Line Reconstruction...

[cale]

I'm trying to think how we can rebuild both our lines...I'm not sure what the cap impact would be but maybe someone better informed can fill in...

 

Offensive line:

 

Heard that Brad Hopkins of the Titans may be let go for cap reasons. I'd like to see how he'd do on the Bills' left side. He's sort of Ruben Brown at left tackle in terms of false starts and penalties but he has protected the blind side of a very good mobile QB. His experience could be invaluable.

 

I think we let Gandy move in to left guard. That's more his position anyway.

 

Teague needs to be let go or moved to left tackle (if we don't make a play for Hopkins). Preston is our future at Center.

 

For now, Villarial needs to be right guard, with Geisinger being groomed for the future. JG is a fine player and I think will prove to be a real good find in last year's draft. His only concern is durability.

 

I'm in two minds about right tackle. As good as Jason Peters is, I don't think RT is his natural and best position. The kid should be a freak TE. Big, strong and fast with soft hands. Any DB, LB or Safety should be terrified to tackle or defend him. Plus he would make an enormous, safety outlet target for JP. I don't get why we're not using him that way. The guy could be our Matt Jones with snot and 'tude.

 

I realize we drafted Kevin Everett for the TE position. But, I know what we have with Peters as opposed to waiting to find out about KE.

 

So, as unpopular as this decision would be, I say get Williams to take a hefty pay cut and keep him at RT. He's been adequate when healthy. Or move Gandy to RT, get Steve Hutchinson in here at LG and try one of the following combos at LT and C.

 

Teague, Preston

Hopkins, Preston

Hopkins, Teague (with Preston at LG).

 

I think Ross Verba is available but he may ask too much money. And for God's sake - pay the talented guys to come to Buffalo.

 

Defensive Line:

 

1) No doubt about it - draft an impact DT in the first round. It's easier for a DT to contribute as a rookie than OTs.

 

2) Find a stop gap second tier veteran DE (like Brock or Mathis from Indy) for DL to be part of the rotation on the left side. I think the braintrust at OBD must be kicking themselves for letting someone like Kyle Vanden Bosch slipping thru our fingers.

 

I think that makes sense. I'd love to see more ideas...

 

Charles

[Bill from NYC]

I'm trying to think how we can rebuild both our lines...I'm not sure what the cap impact would be but maybe someone better informed can fill in...

 

Offensive line:

 

Heard that Brad Hopkins of the Titans may be let go for cap reasons.  I'd like to see how he'd do on the Bills' left side.  He's sort of Ruben Brown at left tackle in terms of false starts and penalties but he has protected the blind side of a very good mobile QB.  His experience could be invaluable.

 

I think we let Gandy move in to left guard.  That's more his position anyway.

 

Teague needs to be let go or moved to left tackle (if we don't make a play for Hopkins).  Preston is our future at Center.

 

For now, Villarial needs to be right guard, with Geisinger being groomed for the future.  JG is a fine player and I think will prove to be a real good find in last year's draft.  His only concern is durability.

 

I'm in two minds about right tackle.  As good as Jason Peters is, I don't think RT is his natural and best position.  The kid should be a freak TE.  Big, strong and fast with soft hands.  Any DB, LB or Safety should be terrified to tackle or defend him.  Plus he would make an enormous, safety outlet target for JP.  I don't get why we're not using him that way.  The guy could be our Matt Jones with snot and 'tude.

 

I realize we drafted Kevin Everett for the TE position.  But, I know what we have with Peters as opposed to waiting to find out about KE.

 

So, as unpopular as this decision would be, I say get Williams to take a hefty pay cut and keep him at RT.  He's been adequate when healthy.  Or move Gandy to RT, get Steve Hutchinson in here at LG and try one of the following combos at LT and C.

 

Teague, Preston

Hopkins, Preston

Hopkins, Teague (with Preston at LG).

 

I think Ross Verba is available but he may ask too much money. And for God's sake - pay the talented guys to come to Buffalo.

 

Defensive Line:

 

1) No doubt about it - draft an impact DT in the first round.  It's easier for a DT to contribute as a rookie than OTs.

 

2) Find a stop gap second tier veteran DE (like Brock or Mathis from Indy) for DL to be part of the rotation on the left side.  I think the braintrust at OBD must be kicking themselves for letting someone like Kyle Vanden Bosch slipping thru our fingers.

 

I think that makes sense.  I'd love to see more ideas...

 

Charles

514677[/snapback]

 

Forget Hopkins. He will be 36 years old in Sept. 06.

As for Peters, I am at a loss as to why anybody would want him to play TE. Do you think he would be great? If not, the Bills are already stacked with pedestrian TEs, and even have yet another of TD's injured draft specials waiting in the wings to jump out of his hospital bed and catch some passes.

 

Steve Hutchinson is a fantastic LG, and would be a great pick up for the Bills. CV is old, and if Geisenger is to be our RG next season, he had better start getting some snaps soon. Either way, I would love to see an early pick used on an OG.

 

This draft is said to be loaded with quality LTs, but they will, as always. be scooped up early. I would love to see TD grab one in round 1, keep Gandy around as a guard, or let him and Peters battle it out at RT. Gandy could even hold down the LT spot if the coaches think that said rookie is not quite ready.

 

With a little luck and a lot of determination, the Bills could straighten out this mess. Sadly, I am not counting on it.

[OnTheRocks]

the key is to find someone who can draft talent.

 

i think TD has been living on reputation for too long. he has sucked the life right out of this organization by drafting "average" to below average players on both sides of the line.

 

2001

2nd Aaron Schobel (Very Avg.)

3rd Ron Edwards (Below Avg.)

3rd Jonas Jennings (I will give him a better than avg. grade because he did well playing any position on the line....injuries aside, he played ok.)

5th Marques Sullivan (Below Avg.)

7th Tyrone Robertson (Below Avg.)

 

2002

1st Mike Williams (Below Avg)

2nd Ryan Denney (Below Avg)

5th Justin Bannan (Avg....considering draft pos.)

7th Mike Pucillo (Below Avg)

 

2003

2nd Chris Kelsay (Avg. to Below Avg)

5th Ben Sobieski (Below Avg)

6th Lauvale Sape (Below Avg)

 

2004 & 2005 - Jury still out but at this point, Tim Anderson and Duke Preston are the only two likely to pan out.

[Bflojohn]

First, realization at One Bills Drive that the back seven are fine, sign Nate Clements! To make Aaron Schobel and Chris Kelsay MUCH MORE effective, draft two very early DT's ( I've suggested Gabriel Watson and Orien Harris) and mend the fences with Sam Adams! Offensively, make a concerted effort to woo either LeCharles Bentley and/or Steve Hutchinson! Dedicate Jason Peters development to his destined position, OLT! I agree, play Duke Preston NOW! Mike Gandy has been a bit of a "unsung" hero, but I'd like him to be the Marcus Price of this offense, very valuable, but definately NOT a starter! Rebuilding this team from the inside out will instantly propel the Bills into contention, IMO

[stuckincincy]

Sign the most promising center you can. Then your guards. All three tend to be reliable for years. Those three establish the core of your offensive protection and certainly your run game. The most talented of tackles without center and guard competency is a waste of money. Tackles seldom protect against a middle collapse.

 

Once you have those three spots sewed up, you will have a bunch of flexibility regarding your tackle, running back, fullback, and qb choices.

 

Having a sure-handed rb or fb will save your qb and ol's bacon, btw.

[cale]

Forget Hopkins. He will be 36 years old in Sept. 06.

As for Peters, I am at a loss as to why anybody would want him to play TE. Do you think he would be great? If not, the Bills are already stacked with pedestrian TEs, and even have yet another of TD's injured draft specials waiting in the wings to jump out of his hospital bed and catch some passes.

 

Steve Hutchinson is a fantastic LG, and would be a great pick up for the Bills. CV is old, and if Geisenger is to be our RG next season, he had better start getting some snaps soon. Either way, I would love to see an early pick used on an OG.

 

This draft is said to be loaded with quality LTs, but they will, as always. be scooped up early. I would love to see TD grab one in round 1, keep Gandy around as a guard, or let him and Peters battle it out at RT. Gandy could even hold down the LT spot if the coaches think that said rookie is not quite ready.

 

With a little luck and a lot of determination, the Bills could straighten out this mess. Sadly, I am not counting on it.

514696[/snapback]

 

 

I don't know if Peters is gonna be great - but he would be a ridiculous mismatch for defenses. Plus the size, speed, hands combo is unheard of. Shouldn't that be the point?

 

I think the other suggestions make sense. Also agree with "stuckincincy" in terms of rebuilding interior line.

 

Charles

[d_wag]

Sign the most promising center you can.  Then your guards. All three tend to be reliable for years. Those three establish the core of your offensive protection and certainly your run game. The most talented of tackles without center and guard competency is a waste of money. Tackles seldom protect against a middle collapse.

 

Once you have those three spots sewed up, you will have a bunch of flexibility regarding your tackle, running back, fullback, and qb choices.

 

Having a sure-handed rb or fb will save your qb and ol's bacon, btw.

514729[/snapback]

 

i prefer the colts stategy of locking down the LT, RT, and C spot........they turn out guards each year but they maintain consistancy at those 3 positions.........makes the most sense cap wise as well.......

[Tortured Soul]

what are the odds that Hutch or Bentley hit the open market?

[d_wag]

what are the odds that Hutch or Bentley hit the open market?

514764[/snapback]

 

very good -- tough to pay franchise tag money to a guard or center.....if it was broken down by position it would be easier, but with the OL assigned one number it will be up around 7 or 8 million this year......

 

can't see why bentley would want to resign with the saints given their mess.....hutch may have some loyalty.......

[N.Y. Orangeman]

I don't see us getting a shot at Hutchinson or Bentley.

 

For the guard spot, I'd love to take a look at Terrance Metcalf from the Bears, Stephen Neal from the Pats, and RFA Vincent Manuwai from Jacksonville. At the tackle spot, Backus is the only real FA who excites me and he will cost a bundle.

[Larry Playfair]

I don't know if Peters is gonna be great - but he would be a ridiculous mismatch for defenses.  Plus the size, speed, hands combo is unheard of.  Shouldn't that be the point?

 

514745[/snapback]

 

Peter is nowhere near fast enough to play TE in the NFL, that is why he has been moved to O-Line.

[stuckincincy]

i prefer the colts stategy of locking down the LT, RT, and C spot........they turn out guards each year but they maintain consistancy at those 3 positions.........makes the most sense cap wise as well.......

514758[/snapback]

 

 

I disagree. Strong tackles are only going to help my run game now and then. I'll put my money on the interior. And a strong blocking FB.

[bills_fan]

Just taking a stab at it...cut MW, Bennie Anderson. Don't re-sign Teague.

 

Sign Hutchinson to play LG. Draft a LT prospect in the 2nd round to groom. Keep Gandy. We'd look like this...

 

LT - Gandy/ Draft Pick

LG - Hutchinson

C - Preston

RG - Villarial

RT - Peters

 

We'd have Geisinger as the backup G, the draft pick as a backup T (eventually will be Gandy). I would also look to sign a versatile OL who can play G or C, for depth purposes.

 

I'd save the big spending (1st Round Pick and FA) for the DT spots.

[cale]

Peter is nowhere near fast enough to play TE in the NFL, that is why he has been moved to O-Line.

514798[/snapback]

 

Hmm...I looked up his combine stats - 330 and 4.9 Ben Watson was 4.53 Is there really that much of a difference? Marv Levy used to say there's something called "game speed." A 330 lb monster running under 5 secs rushing at me would look pretty intimidating...

 

Look I don't know what it takes to play TE in the NFL - but s*** seems to me he couldn't be any worse than the sorry crew we've got now...

 

But, they do mention on the NFL.com site that a lot of scouts thought even if Peters was a TE coming out, would be the best OT taken - so there's your case ;-)

 

Charles

[Mikie2times]

C- Its Teague’s last contact year and I would be surprised to see the Bills work out a deal to keep him. The Saints OL hasn't exactly been great this year but LeCharles has built a solid reputation, and is a player I really want the Bills to pursue.

 

RG- CV is a solid player who's getting old, and it would be difficult to count on him much past next year. With Bentley at C, Preston can take the experience he got this year at RG and be groomed to replace CV after the 2006 season.

 

LG- I'll gladly take Hutch but with Alexander not around to use up Seattle’s Franchise tag Hutchinson will probably get it. Gandy's most recent action before signing with the Bills was at LG in Chicago, and unlike some I feel like he has been one of the Bills best OL this year (I know, not saying much). I say we move Gandy over to LG, and explore LT options via the draft.

 

LT- If PP has first round value so does Nate Clements. I'm not delusional about how much Nate means to the Bills, he is an outstanding player and top 5 NFL corner. The problem is a CB loses its value, just like many other positions will, when you’re getting killed in the trenches. Replace Nate with Will Allen, or Jerry Azumah, and trade him away for a 1st rounder we can use to address LT.

 

RT- Peters has looked like a converted TE in his first few starts, but who really expected him to look much better then that at this point? The Bills already have a ton of holes to fill on both lines so hopefully by the end of the year Peters will show enough at RT that we don't need to find a replacement.

 

DE- Back when this defense was among the best in the NFL the combination of Chris Kelsey, Ryan Denney, and Aaron Schobel led the charge at DE. Now when this defense is among the worst in the NFL a more experienced Chris Kelsey, Ryan Denney, and Aaron Schobel are again leading the charge at DE. The point is the high motor guys aren't killing us at DE. It wouldn't hurt the Bills to add talent at this spot but OL, and DT is a much more pressing matter.

 

DT- If Grey's around we need a fat SOB to eat up blockers, Grady Jackson is not an elite DT, but he is a fat SOB that can eat up blockers. For his partner I make Haloti Ngata (Oregon’s DT) our first round pick. Jackson, Ngata, Anderson, and Edwards will certainly be more effective then what we have at this point.

 

In just about every scenario I can come up with have Rookies, and FA's filling a big part of the equation. This rebuilding probably won't happen overnight, or be complete by 2006. That said we can still make the lines strong enough to not be such a glaring weakness, and hopefully start the foundation of good line play or years to come.

[John from Riverside]

I dont have a philosphy in terms of certain players....but here is my take.....

 

I dont want to sign free agents for the sake of signing them and I dont want to draft line players just because there is a need.....

 

I want THE VERY BEST I can get in terms of talent for each needed position......if the OLT is the best talent when drafting (and free agency is weak at that spot) go with the draftee.....and vice versa.....

 

I would also like to trade down in this draft.....I dont want another Mike Williams....EVER. Lets francise Nate....trade down.....and get a bunch of picks in the first 3 rounds.

[Mikie2times]

Hmm...I looked up his combine stats - 330 and 4.9  Ben Watson was 4.53  Is there really that much of a difference?  Marv Levy used to say there's something called "game speed."  A 330 lb monster running under 5 secs rushing at me would look pretty intimidating...

 

Look I don't know what it takes to play TE in the NFL - but s*** seems to me he couldn't be any worse than the sorry crew we've got now...

 

But, they do mention on the NFL.com site that a lot of scouts thought even if Peters was a TE coming out, would be the best OT taken - so there's your case ;-)

 

Charles

514821[/snapback]

 

The difference between a 4.9 and a 4.53 is massive. The fastest players in the NFL run around 4.3's at the combine, which is about two tenths of a second faster then Watson. Peters is four tenths of a second slower then Watson, so take the difference between Watson and the fastest players in the league and multiply it by 2, and that’s the difference in speed from Peters to Watson.

 

As for game speed that is the reason Peters can't play TE. The 40 measures straight line speed, which Peters does exceptionally well at for such a large man. But the 40 doesn't properly measure his football speed, which for a TE would be snail like. He doesn't have much agility, or acceleration, and doesn't move in and out of his cuts with any fluidness. That is of course measuring him against other TE's, for OL he fairs really well in all of these areas.

 

They stopped giving the heaviest kid the ball around elementary school for good reason. If we did start him at TE he would be a slow glorified OL, with no good knees left from DB's cut tackling him. We already have a couple TE's that fill that role; the goal is to find one that can give us more then that (Everett PLEASE!!)

[colin]

i like the ideas, but i still think we can salvage mike williams if the price is right.

 

if we keep him at RT we have a guy who can still improve and is a very good run blocker. we will still have peters and gandy so if he goes down we have people to take his place.

 

i'd go after hutch and bently, and also look at the other good interior guys coming out.

 

Gandy/peters, hutch, bently, preston, williams would be a VERY solid line and the best in buffalo since a guy named jim was calling his own plays

[Tcali]

C- Its Teague’s last contact year and I would be surprised to see the Bills work out a deal to keep him. The Saints OL hasn't exactly been great this year but LeCharles has built a solid reputation, and is a player I really want the Bills to pursue.

 

RG- CV is a solid player who's getting old, and it would be difficult to count on him much past next year. With Bentley at C, Preston can take the experience he got this year at RG and be groomed to replace CV after the 2006 season. 

 

LG- I'll gladly take Hutch but with Alexander not around to use up Seattle’s Franchise tag Hutchinson will probably get it. Gandy's most recent action before signing with the Bills was at LG in Chicago, and unlike some I feel like he has been one of the Bills best OL this year (I know, not saying much).  I say we move Gandy over to LG, and explore LT options via the draft.

 

LT- If PP has first round value so does Nate Clements. I'm not delusional about how much Nate means to the Bills, he is an outstanding player and top 5 NFL corner. The problem is a CB loses its value, just like many other positions will, when you’re getting killed in the trenches. Replace Nate with Will Allen, or Jerry Azumah, and trade him away for a 1st rounder we can use to address LT. 

 

RT- Peters has looked like a converted TE in his first few starts, but who really expected him to look much better then that at this point? The Bills already have a ton of holes to fill on both lines so hopefully by the end of the year Peters will show enough at RT that we don't need to find a replacement.

 

DE- Back when this defense was among the best in the NFL the combination of Chris Kelsey, Ryan Denney, and Aaron Schobel led the charge at DE.  Now when this defense is among the worst in the NFL a more experienced Chris Kelsey, Ryan Denney, and Aaron Schobel are again leading the charge at DE. The point is the high motor guys aren't killing us at DE.  It wouldn't hurt the Bills to add talent at this spot but OL, and DT is a much more pressing matter.

 

DT- If Grey's around we need a fat SOB to eat up blockers, Grady Jackson is not an elite DT, but he is a fat SOB that can eat up blockers. For his partner I make Haloti Ngata (Oregon’s DT) our first round pick. Jackson, Ngata, Anderson, and Edwards will certainly be more effective then what we have at this point.

 

In just about every scenario I can come up with have Rookies, and FA's filling a big part of the equation. This rebuilding probably won't happen overnight, or be complete by 2006.  That said we can still make the lines strong enough to not be such a glaring weakness, and hopefully start the foundation of good line play or years to come.

514848[/snapback]

Uhhhhhh.Kzoo--could you explain that DE logic again for me?? it sounded ill logical.

Our defense was never the best in the league--unless it was against the Browns at the Ralph.--and Because our former DTs covered up for their ineptness the DEs are now not a problem/priority??

[finknottle]

i prefer the colts stategy of locking down the LT, RT, and C spot........they turn out guards each year but they maintain consistancy at those 3 positions.........makes the most sense cap wise as well.......

514758[/snapback]

 

I'm not sure about it making more cap sense. Here's why:

 

Salaries are fairly consistent except when you have the very best, at which point you may be paying ~4 times (?) the average salary for the position. Since the tackles make much more money on average than guards, the premiums for dominant players are higher. I would expect that having 3 all-pros in the interior and average starters at the tackles would probably cost less than having an average interior with 2 all-pro tackles.