duey Posted November 24, 2005 Posted November 24, 2005 Wow...another great episode. And what a beautiful ending. Some quick thoughts before the face stuffing begins... Ana Lucia...OK...I get it. Now calm down and become a member of society. Rose and her husband getting back together...nice. Same for Jin and Sun. I love Eko...I'm starting to think that he was their John Locke, and I wouldn't be surprised if he and Locke start working together. And I liked in the opening credits it said "Special Guest Star - Maggie Grace." All she did was lay there dead! I love the episode...a very very good watch. Have a happy turkey day everyone. Let the discussion resume Friday.
Rico Posted November 24, 2005 Posted November 24, 2005 The PR chick needs to shave that 'stache, she is fugly.
duey Posted November 24, 2005 Author Posted November 24, 2005 The PR chick needs to shave that 'stache, she is fugly. 511610[/snapback] Hey...didn't I read that somewhere else too!
Rico Posted November 24, 2005 Posted November 24, 2005 Hey...didn't I read that somewhere else too! 511611[/snapback] It was such a good post , I had to do it again.
UConn James Posted November 24, 2005 Posted November 24, 2005 Rose and her husband getting back together...nice. Same for Jin and Sun. I love Eko...I'm starting to think that he was their John Locke, and I wouldn't be surprised if he and Locke start working together. 511608[/snapback] I still hate AL; probably more than before. I hope she gets it, soon. Definitely don't think the writers should do a story of redemption, as I'm guessing they will try. In story, a person who makes a mistake as big as her has to be punished somehow --- it's usually in like kind of what they did, but there needs to be some kind of retribution. Fast-Draw McGraw, she is. And still barking out orders that no one follows, thinking she's in charge. So the ep was a parallel b/w her response to being shot (she murdered the guy, tho she lied about that to Sayid) and Sayid's response to her shooting Shannon, which was a very lame 'Sh-- Happens.' Or perhaps it was a parallel b/w the flashback and how AL is dealing with being the shooter this time, rather than the shoot-ee. Duey, there was definitely a kinship/mutual understanding b/w Locke and Eko. Locke is getting into the trappings of cubicle life again, doing the crossword while manning the button (Gilgamesh); I think he likes the structure and schedule of it. And yeah, the reunion was sentimental, and the music really played into that. Rose-Bernard. Jin-Sun (very nice to see that, after she thought he was dead). But there was also Vincent running toward Michael; and that is a sorrowful scene when you think about it. Here Michael is, right back to where he started from after having such high hopes, and his son has been kidnapped. It's going to be very interesting to see how it plays out w/ Michael's reaction over time and in how they're going to get Walt back.
Ramius Posted November 24, 2005 Posted November 24, 2005 Libby is growing on me...i need a blonde replacement for shannon all in all another great episode...i liked it, because a lot happend, but we werent bombarded with stuff happening like the past few eps. This one i felt i could just watch without having to look for 8,000 little things in the background. Any thoughts on what happens to kate next week? she mentions something about believing in ghosts in the previews, and its going to be interesting to see the dynamics in the Jack-Kate-Sawyer-Ana Lucis love square...
sweet baboo Posted November 24, 2005 Posted November 24, 2005 i certainly hope jack didn't go through medical school and years of residency for surgery just to end up with m-rod
cåblelady Posted November 24, 2005 Posted November 24, 2005 And yeah, the reunion was sentimental, and the music really played into that. Rose-Bernard. Jin-Sun (very nice to see that, after she thought he was dead). But there was also Vincent running toward Michael 511624[/snapback] That was so awesome.
slothrop Posted November 24, 2005 Posted November 24, 2005 anyone notice that the guy who shot AL looked similar to Sawyer? I don't think that was an accident. So that brings two possibilities into play: 1) Sawyer's similar appearance sparked AL emotional/mental breakdown; 2) Sawyer shot AL
UConn James Posted November 24, 2005 Posted November 24, 2005 anyone notice that the guy who shot AL looked similar to Sawyer? I don't think that was an accident. So that brings two possibilities into play: 1) Sawyer's similar appearance sparked AL emotional/mental breakdown; 2) Sawyer shot AL 511845[/snapback] Well, considering that she emptied a clip into the guy, and then went closer for a double-tap to the head, I'm thinking it wasn't Sawyer. I think the guy's name was Jason. But he did look a little like Sawyer, probably not accidental. Something else to think about, the guy shoots AL. AL refuses to ID him which prompts his release. Guy gets shot. You would think AL is the prime suspect in the murder (b/c that's what it is, regardless whether you think it was justified). Her mother was the captain.... Then there was the domestic where she pulled her gun; which in itself is a serious matter and requires paperwork-up-the-ass over whether it was necessary; and it being her first day back on the job after a shooting incident, there would/should have been disciplinary action for it, and desk duty for a long time. Her partner didn't report that she drew her weapon, her mother apparently put a kibosh on the investigation of Jason's murder. This is a girl (I won't say woman) who has had people covering for her f--kups for a long time. And she's ugly.
The Jokeman Posted November 24, 2005 Posted November 24, 2005 So the ep was a parallel b/w her response to being shot (she murdered the guy, tho she lied about that to Sayid) and Sayid's response to her shooting Shannon, which was a very lame 'Sh-- Happens.' Or perhaps it was a parallel b/w the flashback and how AL is dealing with being the shooter this time, rather than the shoot-ee.. 511624[/snapback] I think Sayid's response was a natural one. As after hearing her story he probably related to her a little bit and probably didn't want to have another killing on his conscious**. Not to mention giving AL the satisfaction of killing her as appears she wanted him to do it as probably felt had nothing to live for at that time. Of course now that she has seen Jack she's probably going to start to feel better about herself and wouldn't be shocked if she some how ends up saving Aaron or possibly Walt as the writers still have to get her on the viewers side as I still haven't warmed up to her. Any thoughts on what happens to kate next week? she mentions something about believing in ghosts in the previews511668[/snapback] Sayid mentioned hearing those he killed in his head and it seems there are many characters that have killed others on this show: Kate, Sawyer, Sayid, AL, Jack (by not attending to Shannon's dad), Charlie. Perhaps the whispers in the woods are Ghosts of the dead people in their prior lives trying to contact them. Infact death is starting to become a big part of this show if look back. Well, considering that she emptied a clip into the guy, and then went closer for a double-tap to the head, I'm thinking it wasn't Sawyer. I think the guy's name was Jason. But he did look a little like Sawyer, probably not accidental. Something else to think about, the guy shoots AL. AL refuses to ID him which prompts his release. Guy gets shot. You would think AL is the prime suspect in the murder (b/c that's what it is, regardless whether you think it was justified). Her mother was the captain.... Then there was the domestic where she pulled her gun; which in itself is a serious matter and requires paperwork-up-the-ass over whether it was necessary; and it being her first day back on the job after a shooting incident, there would/should have been disciplinary action for it, and desk duty for a long time. Her partner didn't report that she drew her weapon, her mother apparently put a kibosh on the investigation of Jason's murder. This is a girl (I won't say woman) who has had people covering for her f--kups for a long time. And she's ugly. 511866[/snapback] The simple reason AL didn't finger Jason was probably because she probably thought the time he would end up serving wouldn't make up for the loss of her baby. As I'm pretty sure no jury would find him guilty of murder in the first on an unborn child especially since AL didn't appear to be pregnant. Therefore taking justice in her own hands was her answer. Also, I could of sworn AL told Sayid they never found the body so she probably dumped him somewhere she knew the cops wouldn't look. So there was no cover up.
UConn James Posted November 24, 2005 Posted November 24, 2005 Of course now that she has seen Jack she's probably going to start to feel better about herself and wouldn't be shocked if she some how ends up saving Aaron or possibly Walt as the writers still have to get her on the viewers side as I still haven't warmed up to her. I don't think she can get on viewers' good sides. As I said, in story-telling, a character who kills a character we've come to know or like has to pay for that in some manner. Either in prison, mental health, their own death or any combination of that. Maybe the writers will try to redeem AL as a kind of anti-hero (look up the meaning of this, b/c it's probably not what you think it means*). This kind of character is a very tricky thing to establish. As you say, she'll probably have to rescue one of the group. I honestly don't see Ms. One-way doing that. *anti-hero: the/a central character in a play, book or film who does not possess traditionally heroic qualities, such as bravery, and is admired instead for, or despite, what society generally considers to be a weakness of their character Sayid mentioned hearing those he killed in his head and it seems there are many characters that have killed others on this show: Kate, Sawyer, Sayid, AL, Jack (by not attending to Shannon's dad), Charlie. Perhaps the whispers in the woods are Ghosts of the dead people in their prior lives trying to contact them. Infact death is starting to become a big part of this show if look back.The simple reason AL didn't finger Jason was probably because she probably thought the time he would end up serving wouldn't make up for the loss of her baby. As I'm pretty sure no jury would find him guilty of murder in the first on an unborn child especially since AL didn't appear to be pregnant. Therefore taking justice in her own hands was her answer. Also, I could of sworn AL told Sayid they never found the body so she probably dumped him somewhere she knew the cops wouldn't look. So there was no cover up. 511899[/snapback] Death will become a part of any show with a basis in disaster and being marooned on an island, except Gilligan's Island, o' course. The reason why she didn't ID him was so he would be back on the street where she could hunt him down, rather than entering the penal system where he's protected from retribution. Watch it again, and you know her mother knows what AL is thinking about doing. She asks her, what three times, to ID the guy? Her mother didn't get to be a captain by being stupid. In the flashback, AL shoots him, puts the gun in her jacket and then walks away; she didn't pick up the body and dump/bury it somewhere. Jason's prints are in the system, so he's easily identifiable; an arrest record search, nevermind the cops in the precinct would show her connection to Jason, which is instant motive. Someone had to have covered for her somewhere. What you're talking about is the part where AL lied when Sayid asked her if she ever saw (and an implied "Did you take revenge on...?") the guy who shot her. She said No, probably b/c she was thinking about her own present situation. If you're AL, you probably don't want to tell Sayid that when someone shot you, you gunned them down in cold blood.
Gavin in Va Beach Posted November 25, 2005 Posted November 25, 2005 In the flashback, AL shoots him, puts the gun in her jacket and then walks away; she didn't pick up the body and dump/bury it somewhere. Jason's prints are in the system, so he's easily identifiable; an arrest record search, nevermind the cops in the precinct would show her connection to Jason, which is instant motive. Someone had to have covered for her somewhere. 511984[/snapback] Do we know why she was in Australia? Could have been laying low...
SilverNRed Posted November 25, 2005 Posted November 25, 2005 Do we know why she was in Australia? Could have been laying low... 512134[/snapback] They never said why she was in Australia but that would be my guess.
UConn James Posted November 25, 2005 Posted November 25, 2005 If that's the case, why is she returning to LA (was that where she was? I heard the first couple of minutes but missed the visual.... was washing off paint) now? It can't be very long afterward.
CosmicBills Posted November 25, 2005 Posted November 25, 2005 Maybe the writers will try to redeem AL as a kind of anti-hero (look up the meaning of this, b/c it's probably not what you think it means*). This kind of character is a very tricky thing to establish. 511984[/snapback] The writers are not attempting to establish AL as an anti-hero, nor do they need to. The writers have crafted her as a tragic hero (more Oedipus than Jim Stark). Every move she has made on the island has been rooted in the belief that she was doing the right thing for others (saving everyone over just Sawyer, Nathan in the pit, Goodwin, even Shannon), however she has tragically f'ed up nearly every one of those situations. I'm not saying she has acted prudently, but everything she has done has been understandable in relation to her character and the situation. This does not make her an anti-hero. It makes her a tragic figure. It's also the reason why people are having such a hard time (myself included) sympathyzing with her character. To introduce a tragic hero so late in a story is difficult because the tragedies she causes involve characters we have known longer and understand more fully than AL. So instead of coming off as tragic, she is coming off as a B word. It's an interesting choice from a dramatic standpoint, but perhaps a necessary one. With no hatch to discover, no French woman, no monster (at least at the moment), no raft to build, there needed to be a disruptive force within the camp itself to cause conflict. This last few episodes (save for the montage at the end of "The Other 48 Days" have been very well written in my eyes. Restored my faith in the show.
UConn James Posted November 25, 2005 Posted November 25, 2005 The writers are not attempting to establish AL as an anti-hero, nor do they need to. The writers have crafted her as a tragic hero (more Oedipus than Jim Stark). Every move she has made on the island has been rooted in the belief that she was doing the right thing for others (saving everyone over just Sawyer, Nathan in the pit, Goodwin, even Shannon), however she has tragically f'ed up nearly every one of those situations. I'm not saying she has acted prudently, but everything she has done has been understandable in relation to her character and the situation. This does not make her an anti-hero. It makes her a tragic figure. It's also the reason why people are having such a hard time (myself included) sympathyzing with her character. To introduce a tragic hero so late in a story is difficult because the tragedies she causes involve characters we have known longer and understand more fully than AL. So instead of coming off as tragic, she is coming off as a B word. It's an interesting choice from a dramatic standpoint, but perhaps a necessary one. With no hatch to discover, no French woman, no monster (at least at the moment), no raft to build, there needed to be a disruptive force within the camp itself to cause conflict. This last few episodes (save for the montage at the end of "The Other 48 Days" have been very well written in my eyes. Restored my faith in the show. 512261[/snapback] You almost convinced me, except the bold part would be a classic reaction to a weak anti-hero (must say that I'm not arguing that she's liked for her character flaws, rather that they are simply understood and somewhat forgiven, just as you did above). Funny that you bring up Oedipus, b/c there are character similarities b/w him and AL. That was in the Greek definition of tragedy where the punishment was far worse than the crime committed. Despite what everyone including the chorus was telling him, he didn't stop doing what was the wrong move. Bad judgment compounded by quick action. Sound familiar? Going on the Greek def., unless AL is flayed alive by the Others, I don't know that it fits. And then there's Arthur Miller, who redefined the tragic figure: "Tragedy, then, is the consequence of man's total compulsion to evaluate himself justly" and has an "inherent unwillingness to remain passive in the face of what he conceives to be a challenge to his dignity." I understand how you can see this in AL's character. Really, I do, esp. in the scene after she cuts Sayid's rope and says 'I deserve to die.' Maybe you're right and it's just b/c I haven't finished my morning coffee yet. And probably, a determination shouldn't be made until we see how she acts going forward. Thing is, the tragic figure usually has to die, go to jail, etc soon after their self-revelation. I don't see how the writers can have AL maintaining this "tragic figure" role for much longer. If she is to stay on the island, it would fit more into the anti-hero, where we can understand why she did what she did and move on accepting that this is what she does. And, probably, her compunction to act quickly and with bad judgment will pay off one of these days.
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