Roger and You

[Bill from NYC]

I exclude the "conservatives" on this board from this rant. You guys have made it clear that due to your experience, observations, or just opinions, you are no friend of organized labor. A couple even admitted to jealousy. I have no problem with this.

 

You lefties however have struck again. When Michael Moore made the movie "Roger and Me," many were moved by the plight of the working people in Flint Michigan, which was portrayed as a wonderful town, complete with good schools, low crime, and even racial harmony. This at least was the picture painted by Mr. Moore.

 

Now, the "left" is supposedly sympathetic to working Americans, right? Well, 30,000 Americans (and Canadians) are about to lose their jobs, houses, etc. due to the closing of perhaps a dozen GM plants. Flint will be hit yet again.

Why are sales down? I don't think the cars are SO bad. I own a Ford Taurus. It was built by unionized workers in Atlanta, Georgia and it runs just great. It was NOT built by people who bombed Pearl Harbor, nor killed our soldiers and threw Jews in the nearest oven.

Whether or not you agree with Bush in Iraq, Germany turned their backs on us. They will be oh so glad to see you lefties plunk down your cash for a Volkswagon, but when you need them, forget it.

If dems truly did care about the working class, this would not be happening. There would be enough American cars sold for these workers to sustain a living.

Repubs, led by a president who seems to hate the working class, do not pretend to be our friends. President Bush is currently trying his best to ram through a tax package which will injure average working people and benefit his rich friends.

Dems are worse, for they are wolves in sheep's clothing.They pay lip service to organized workers while on their way to the Volvo Dealer, or while hiring their undoccumented nanny.

 

Sorry for the rant; but I am fed up with both of these phony parties, and I get upset when working families are forced to come home around the holidays and tell their children how their lives are falling apart, especially when there are phonies out there pretending to care.

 

Buy American

[RI Bills Fan]

Bill, as one of the very few union members other than you who post on this board I have two word for you, BITE ME!

 

Take your stupid rant and shove it where the sun doesn't shine!

 

Liberals are the sole reason GM is Planning to close plants? PLEASE! Get a Grip, a Life, and a Clue!

 

There are a variety of reasons why those plants are being threatened with closure and one of the top reasons is to try and break the back of the UAW.

 

Bill, it's people like you who claim to be good loyal union members but vote Republican who enable scumbags like the top management at GM to get away with things like this.

 

OBTW I drive a Chevy Silverado and my wife drives a Chrysler Voyager. Both made in the good old USA. So we agree completely on the Buy American part.

[Bill from NYC]

Bill, as one of the very few union members other than you who post on this board I have two word for you, BITE ME!

 

Take your stupid rant and shove it where the sun doesn't shine!

 

Liberals are the sole reason GM is Planning to close plants? PLEASE! Get a Grip, a Life, and a Clue!

 

510937[/snapback]

 

Getting a tad chesty and personal are we? Calm down, little fellow.

[RI Bills Fan]

Well big guy if you weren't looking for replys like that from "Liberals" what were you looking for? Pats on the back and agreement from your Neocon Buddies that it is indeed all the evil liberals fault, perhaps?

[GG]

Bill, you do realize that VW has a far worse union problem than the US, and their costs of production are much higher. They just haven't faced up to the looming problems like GM & Ford are trying to do now.

 

I don't recall many saying that unions are the sole reason that GM is failing, but they are a big contributor. GM needs to do 2 things, produce cars that people want to buy (without incentives) and get its cost structure in line.

[IowaBill]

Getting a tad chesty and personal are we? Calm down, little fellow.

510945[/snapback]

As a former union member, I would agree, bite me!!!!! Actually, lets not consider it an act of patriotism to buy a car built and assembled by union labor. I say as a person that drives a Ford F 150 and my wife drives a Mustang, both built by UAW members. Cars don't have tpo be built and assmebled by union workers to be good, certainly the non union car companys that design, build and assemble cars here in the states (Honda, Toyota, Hyundai,etc) have proven that. GM is eliminating 30,000 jobs because they have way too much capacity for the number of vehicles they make. It doesn't take anywhere near the number of union workers and man hours to build and assemble automobiles as it used to. Even if we bought "American " (read UAW assembled) cars, GM and Ford would most likely be shrinking their unionized workforce. I have been to Toyota and Honda assembly plants in the US. Guess what, the people there didn't attack Pearl Harbor, they didn't throw any Jews into ovens. They are as American as you and I. They make a decent living and make a good product. They also don't pay union dues, which I think is what really rankles you. Unions are not needed for fair wages , good benefits, and safe working conditions.

[UConn James]

They make a decent living and make a good product.

510985[/snapback]

 

Well that's the thing in today's American economy. Producing a tangible product ourselves is so passé.

 

With every free trade agreement, American becomes more and more a retail economy, where the only jobs will be selling stuff that other countries make. We have Bill Clinton and the Republicans to thank for sailing us down the river, and Dems who, in their few statements on this subject have broad ideas I agree with more than not but not many specifics about how we can become a production economy again. But come election time, they sit on the sidelines and talk about abortion.

[blzrul]

Since 1985 I have purchased two American cars, and two Japanese cars. The American-made vehicles were more expensive for the features I got, and far less reliable. I am meticulous about maintenance, yet things continue to go wrong. The laundry list of repairs and expenditures for those FAR exceeds the foreign cars. And the foreign cars last longer overall. I have kept looking for reasons to buy American, and after I do, I feel betrayed.

 

This is confusing to me, because the Japanese cars I buy are manufactured here in the USA. So - are their engineers better? Or are their managerial processes better? Why is it they get better products out of American workers than the big, fat bloated, top-heavy dinosauers in Detroit?

 

I'm sorry people are losing their jobs but it's certainly not my fault. My business has to be earned. I try to avoid foreign-made if possible (I haven't set foot in a Wal-Mart in years) but not to the extent that I'm going to end up throwing my money into a black hole...because when I'm bankrupted by automotive maintenance costs, the compassionate conservative response would be to eat cake...no matter that I lost my shirt trying to be patriotic and "buy American".

[slothrop]

I exclude the "conservatives" on this board from this rant. You guys have made it clear that due to your experience, observations, or just opinions, you are no friend of organized labor. A couple even admitted to jealousy. I have no problem with this.

 

You lefties however have struck again. When Michael Moore made the movie "Roger and Me," many were moved by the plight of the working people in Flint Michigan, which was portrayed as a wonderful town, complete with good schools, low crime, and even racial harmony. This at least was the picture painted by Mr. Moore.

 

Now, the "left" is supposedly sympathetic to working Americans, right? Well, 30,000 Americans (and Canadians) are about to lose their jobs, houses, etc. due to the closing of perhaps a dozen GM plants. Flint will be hit yet again.

Why are sales down? I don't think the cars are SO bad. I own a Ford Taurus. It was built by unionized workers in Atlanta, Georgia and it runs just great. It was NOT built by people who bombed Pearl Harbor, nor killed our soldiers and threw Jews in the nearest oven.

Whether or not you agree with Bush in Iraq, Germany turned their backs on us. They will be oh so glad to see you lefties plunk down your cash for a Volkswagon, but when you need them, forget it.

If dems truly did care about the working class, this would not be happening. There would be enough American cars sold for these workers to sustain a living.

Repubs, led by a president who seems to hate the working class, do not pretend to be our friends. President Bush is currently trying his best to ram through a tax package which will injure average working people and benefit his rich friends.

  Dems are worse, for they are wolves in sheep's clothing.They pay lip service to organized workers while on their way to the Volvo Dealer, or while hiring their undoccumented nanny.

 

Sorry for the rant; but I am fed up with both of these phony parties, and I get upset when working families are forced to come home around the holidays and tell their children how their lives are falling apart, especially when there are phonies out there pretending to care.

 

Buy American

510902[/snapback]

 

 

The "plight" of GM is a complicated situation that was decades in the making - however it has a lot to do with a business plan featuring tank-like SUV's as its flagship when SUV sales are plateauing. A bad business plan creates a bad business - everytime.

 

Also, Bill. I owned a Taurus. You know how you can spot the owner of a FOrd Taurus? Look at the bottom of their shoes. If you see that the bottoms are so wornt hat there are holes in them there is a high likelyhood that they own a tuarus from all the walking while the car was in the shop. I HATED THAT CAR AND IT HATED ME! Only my mechanic liked it.

[Mickey]

Toyota/Honda employs 28,000 people in the US. Their Georgetown Kentucky plant employs 7,000 people and was the major factor in Kentucky becoming a boom state in the auto assembly and supply business. They are going to build a hybrid Camry in the US. Any market share lost to GM from Toyota could hurt American workers not to mention Americans who hold stock in Toyota. GM owns Saab, don't they? If I buy a Saab, who does that help, workers in Flint or in Scandanavia? GM also owns Opel and has a large stake in Suzuki and Isuzu.

 

Ford owns Mazda, Volvo, Aston Martin and Jaguar. Lord knows where all the parts are made. Which workers benefit if I buy a Mazda or a Volvo? GM has three plants in Ontario so if I buy GM, have did I "Buy American" or did I "Buy Canadian"?

 

I think GM's problems are that the market for large SUV's and trucks has bottomed out due to gas prices. Cadillac's, Hummers and GMC Jimmy's just don't sell well getting 3 MPG when gas is $2.50 per.

 

I'm just not sure that "Buy American" is the answer here although it as attractive one because it is A) simple; and B) appealingly patriotic.

[KRC]

I exclude the "conservatives" on this board from this rant. You guys have made it clear that due to your experience, observations, or just opinions, you are no friend of organized labor. A couple even admitted to jealousy. I have no problem with this.

 

You lefties however have struck again. When Michael Moore made the movie "Roger and Me," many were moved by the plight of the working people in Flint Michigan, which was portrayed as a wonderful town, complete with good schools, low crime, and even racial harmony. This at least was the picture painted by Mr. Moore.

 

Now, the "left" is supposedly sympathetic to working Americans, right? Well, 30,000 Americans (and Canadians) are about to lose their jobs, houses, etc. due to the closing of perhaps a dozen GM plants. Flint will be hit yet again.

Why are sales down? I don't think the cars are SO bad. I own a Ford Taurus. It was built by unionized workers in Atlanta, Georgia and it runs just great. It was NOT built by people who bombed Pearl Harbor, nor killed our soldiers and threw Jews in the nearest oven.

Whether or not you agree with Bush in Iraq, Germany turned their backs on us. They will be oh so glad to see you lefties plunk down your cash for a Volkswagon, but when you need them, forget it.

If dems truly did care about the working class, this would not be happening. There would be enough American cars sold for these workers to sustain a living.

Repubs, led by a president who seems to hate the working class, do not pretend to be our friends. President Bush is currently trying his best to ram through a tax package which will injure average working people and benefit his rich friends.

  Dems are worse, for they are wolves in sheep's clothing.They pay lip service to organized workers while on their way to the Volvo Dealer, or while hiring their undoccumented nanny.

 

Sorry for the rant; but I am fed up with both of these phony parties, and I get upset when working families are forced to come home around the holidays and tell their children how their lives are falling apart, especially when there are phonies out there pretending to care.

 

Buy American

510902[/snapback]

 

 

Had 2 Nissans: both great cars that I never had a problem with

Had a Ford: Worst POS I ever owned

Currently have a Honda: Great car with no problems to date.

Wifey owns a Honda: no problems to date

She had a Nissan before that, no problems

My mom has a Ford and it is always having trouble

She had a Nissan before the Ford and never had a problem

My dad has had Buicks, Oldsmobiles, and now a Dodge: always giving him trouble.

 

Explain again why I should buy American?

[SilverNRed]

Had 2 Nissans: both great cars that I never had a problem with

Had a Ford: Worst POS I ever owned

Currently have a Honda: Great car with no problems to date.

Wifey owns a Honda: no problems to date

She had a Nissan before that, no problems

My mom has a Ford and it is always having trouble

She had a Nissan before the Ford and never had a problem

My dad has had Buicks, Oldsmobiles, and now a Dodge: always giving him trouble.

 

Explain again why I should buy American?

511065[/snapback]

Bottom line is no one is going to buy a car that is a POS, no matter where it's made.

 

Since 1988, my family has bought three Hondas, an Acura, and a Chevy. The Chevy (bought in 1996) is the biggest piece of junk we've ever owned. The 1988 Honda Accord still runs great (we gave it to my grandmother a few years back). The other two Hondas and the Acura are all great cars.

[Ghost of BiB]

Does a guy who makes three spot welds on a chassis 100 times a day deserve $50 per hour plus benefits?

[Nixon]

Does a guy who makes three spot welds on a chassis 100 times a day deserve $50 per hour plus benefits?

511181[/snapback]

 

 

If he hits every weld, too.

[TheMadCap]

I have to concur with the others here when they say that thier "foreign" cars like Hondas and Nissans are more reliable than the American (UAW) stuff. That is the number one reason I never buy a UAW car...

[Alaska Darin]

I challenge ANYONE to take off their blinders and really look at the vehicles they're buying.

 

If you can honestly say that the money spent on a Taurus makes more sense than an Accord or Camry, you need to have your head examined. All three cars are built in the US but the "Japanese" models are of SIGNIFICANTLY higher quality.

 

GM isn't cutting 30K jobs because people are buying Japanese or German cars. The problem is MUCH deeper than that. For far too many years they have had too many models, produced under too many names, too much redundancy in the system, and the wrong image for the future.

 

Add to that ridiculous pay scales for pretty much the entire company and you have a disaster that will eventually roll down the hill.

 

I drive a '99 Silverado. Terrific vehicle. I'll probably have it until it explodes. Wife is now driving a Nissan XTerra (assembled in Smyrna, Tennessee). It is the first "foriegn" vehicle we've owned and the quality over her past SUVs is immeasurable.

 

GM is reaping what it has sown - as many businesses do when they start believing they're smarter than their customers.

[Bill from NYC]

  Unions are not needed for fair wages , good benefits, and safe working conditions.

510985[/snapback]

 

You were making some sense until the above. There are situations where you are simply wrong.

Your post indicates blind trust for corporations, municipalities, etc. I hope that you are right in terms of your future, or you will be a sad and disillusioned person when thrown out into the street.

[Alaska Darin]

You were making some sense until the above. There are situations where you are simply wrong.

Your post indicates blind trust for corporations, municipalities, etc. I hope that you are right in terms of your future, or you will be a sad and disillusioned person when thrown out into the street.

511279[/snapback]

You mean like your "bombed Pearl Harbor" and "tossed Jews in ovens" commentary?

[Bill from NYC]

GM is reaping what it has sown - as many businesses do when they start believing they're smarter than their customers.

511245[/snapback]

 

Agreed. Actually, GM started ripping off their customers as far back as the early 80s, when they were putting Chevy engines into Buicks.

 

Btw, I do not fully absolve the unions from all fault. There is a need for members to get involved, and for union bosses to be honest with those that they represent.

I think that at times, they press harder for bigger raises, etc. for fear of losing the next election. An informed membership would get a clearer look at the big picture.

 

My friend owns a Mobil Station/repair shop and he says the GMs are getting better, particularly the Buicks (I don't know, this is what HE says).

 

It looks to me like a situation that could have been avoided.

[KRC]

There are situations where you are simply wrong.

511279[/snapback]

 

...and there are situations when IowaBill is absolutely correct.