GG Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 And TD had his best Draft success by Trading down for Nate Clements and getting that extra Pick that netted Travis Henry...Where was that strategy in 2002? The Talent he could have got with a Trade Down in the 2002 Draft was endless... For a good part of his Soph and Jr. Seasons Henderson was considered a possible #1 Overall Pick...Now I understand he had some injury concerns, but really...Is this not just poor Scouting? What in the heck happened to the Scouting Department that was widely considered one of the NFL's best? Sorry...Late night rant...I need sleep... 510761[/snapback] and that's what kills me about the 2002 draft. Not only did TD not trade down, he did the opposite to land a pedestrian DE. As to your other question, that is a very good question, that few have actually explored...
e-dog Posted November 23, 2005 Author Posted November 23, 2005 You have pretty much nailed it ricojes. Please relay to TD at OBD.
bobblehead Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 You have pretty much nailed it ricojes. Please relay to TD at OBD. 510869[/snapback] (in George W. Bush voice): "This here is what one would call... rev-is-ion-ist history."
GG Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 The Chargers drafted Ryan Freakin Leaf and became contenders a few years later. The Bills are going backwards, I don't see this team being competetive for a few more years (if were lucky). ... I could go on and on................... 510864[/snapback] Chargers draft Leaf in '98, and don't have a winning season until '04. (All the while having four Top 5 draft slots in the draft in that span?) That's your definition of "a few years later?" I could go on and on....
colin Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 mckinnie gets on his man well, he just doesn't do too much when he gets there (reminds me of fina a bit). has finess and instincts and all that, but no power. fina was light, but bryant is just fat and lazy. he did like 17 reps or so with 225 in the draft combine bench press, most guys over 215 who lift weights for a few years could do that if they spent a couple months emphasizing bench press for reps. he really doens't have the power to match his blocking tools IMO. williams is sort of the opposite, but i think he real problem is confidence
KOKBILLS Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 It takes two to tango, and it was widely reported that nobody wanted to trade up into any of the top spots that year. But let's blame TD on that anyway. CW 510804[/snapback] Yes lets... What I remember was that no one was willing to give up what The Bills wanted to move up there...which I guess is the same thing as no Team wanting to Trade up...Nonetheless we dont know what TD was asking, nor do we know what others were offering, and I dont believe for a second that there was zero interest because that seems about impossible...There is always a Deal to be made... On the blaming TD angle...Let me say this, I have been a TD Backer for some time now. There is no question that TD is an excellent GM concerning specific aspects of his Job...But when it comes to putting Playoff calibre Talent and Coaching on the Field, TD has failed...Period, end of story...How could you possibly come to any other conclusion? The 2002 Draft was the Bills reward for a brutal 2001 Season...It was TD's chance to give this Organization a HUGE boost...And even without Trading Down the opportunity was there for TD/TM based on the Players available... If you want to purely go off what was widely, or generally know to the public at the time, TD/TM could have taken DT John Henderson (or DT Albert Haynesworth who some had as high as #3 overall going in), OG/C Andre Gurode (or OG Tonui Fonoti, or C LeCharles Bentley), and WR Deion Branch with those first 3 Picks and no one would have been surprised based on where those Players were Ranked...So being selective about what was "widely know" at the time does not even work in this case. There were PLENTY of Scouting-type Folks out there, who know a heck of a lot more about Football than I do, that felt MW would never be more than a good Run Blocking RT...PLENTY...Furthermore, even guys like Mel Kiper who liked Williams did not feel he was the 4th overall Prospect in the Draft... Look... I understand that this type of revisionist history drives some Folks crazy when dealing with the Draft, but my point is that it is RARE for any NFL Team to have 3 Picks in the Top 61 of ANY Draft. And when you do, and you blow it the way TD/TM blew this opportunity, the results on the Filed can be devistating to a Franchise. This is exactly how a Scouting Department needs to be judged because there were plenty of other options to the ones the Bills took in that Draft...And if you want to give TD/TM credit for Picks like Willis McGahee and Lee Evans, you certainly have to call them out on the debacle that was the 2002 Draft for The Buffalo Bills...
Sound_n_Fury Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 Ask the Chargers. 510791[/snapback] Buddy Nix is having a better year(s) than Tom Modrak...
e-dog Posted November 23, 2005 Author Posted November 23, 2005 Good post KOK. Agreed that '02 draft is the one killing this team today. They should have at least two of those picks, if not all three, starting and being key players on this team. Lets call it both ways. He gets credit for Price/McGahee, Evans, Clements but he struckout in '02 with three high picks.
ganesh Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 Many felt Polian reached for Freeney on Draft Day...He knew what he was doing... Sorry...Late night rant...I need sleep... 510761[/snapback] Reaching for a player at 16 is much less target for criticism than reaching for a plyaer at #4.
Rico Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 Yes lets... What I remember was that no one was willing to give up what The Bills wanted to move up there...which I guess is the same thing as no Team wanting to Trade up...Nonetheless we dont know what TD was asking, nor do we know what others were offering, and I dont believe for a second that there was zero interest because that seems about impossible...There is always a Deal to be made... On the blaming TD angle...Let me say this, I have been a TD Backer for some time now. There is no question that TD is an excellent GM concerning specific aspects of his Job...But when it comes to putting Playoff calibre Talent and Coaching on the Field, TD has failed...Period, end of story...How could you possibly come to any other conclusion? The 2002 Draft was the Bills reward for a brutal 2001 Season...It was TD's chance to give this Organization a HUGE boost...And even without Trading Down the opportunity was there for TD/TM based on the Players available... If you want to purely go off what was widely, or generally know to the public at the time, TD/TM could have taken DT John Henderson (or DT Albert Haynesworth who some had as high as #3 overall going in), OG/C Andre Gurode (or OG Tonui Fonoti, or C LeCharles Bentley), and WR Deion Branch with those first 3 Picks and no one would have been surprised based on where those Players were Ranked...So being selective about what was "widely know" at the time does not even work in this case. There were PLENTY of Scouting-type Folks out there, who know a heck of a lot more about Football than I do, that felt MW would never be more than a good Run Blocking RT...PLENTY...Furthermore, even guys like Mel Kiper who liked Williams did not feel he was the 4th overall Prospect in the Draft... Look... I understand that this type of revisionist history drives some Folks crazy when dealing with the Draft, but my point is that it is RARE for any NFL Team to have 3 Picks in the Top 61 of ANY Draft. And when you do, and you blow it the way TD/TM blew this opportunity, the results on the Filed can be devistating to a Franchise. This is exactly how a Scouting Department needs to be judged because there were plenty of other options to the ones the Bills took in that Draft...And if you want to give TD/TM credit for Picks like Willis McGahee and Lee Evans, you certainly have to call them out on the debacle that was the 2002 Draft for The Buffalo Bills... 510932[/snapback] Good post KOK. It could also be that TD was hoping for Harrington to drop to #4 and didn't have enough time to react with confidence when it didn't happen.
KOKBILLS Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 Good post KOK. It could also be that TD was hoping for Harrington to drop to #4 and didn't have enough time to react with confidence when it didn't happen. 511030[/snapback] You had to bring that up huh Bro?... Hope you are well Rico...Happy Thanksgiving My Friend...
ricojes Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 Chargers draft Leaf in '98, and don't have a winning season until '04. (All the while having four Top 5 draft slots in the draft in that span?) That's your definition of "a few years later?" 510877[/snapback] That's about the same year the Bills last made the playoffs... I could go on and on.... 510877[/snapback] Please do....
Rico Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 You had to bring that up huh Bro?... Hope you are well Rico...Happy Thanksgiving My Friend... 511117[/snapback] Likewise, Happy Holidays to you & yours!
Sound_n_Fury Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 Look... I understand that this type of revisionist history drives some Folks crazy... 510932[/snapback] Yep, it does. Here's what other "experts" had to say about MW and the 2002 draft at the time: Mel Kiper 1st Round Commentary Buchsbaum - PFW Pro Football Weekly PFW Round 1 Recap PFW Round 2 Recap College Football News Draft Recap Great Blue North 2002 Draft Grade Gil Brant
KOKBILLS Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 Yep, it does. Here's what other "experts" had to say about MW and the 2002 draft at the time: Mel Kiper 1st Round Commentary Buchsbaum - PFW Pro Football Weekly PFW Round 1 Recap PFW Round 2 Recap College Football News Draft Recap Great Blue North 2002 Draft Grade Gil Brant 511152[/snapback] Allow me to clarify My Position on Scouting, Drafting etc...It matters not that many, if not almost all others, were wrong in their evaluation. It matters only that the Bills were wrong, and others were right...I know it sounds harsh, unrealistic, whatever...But the fact is up to this point in time, they got it wrong. And furthermore had they done well with both 2nd Round Picks the fact that MW has underachieved up to this point would be much more acceptable... BTW Thanks for the Links...Good reading it is...
GG Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 510877[/snapback] That's about the same year the Bills last made the playoffs... Please do.... 511133[/snapback] What kind of an argument is that? Did the Chargers make the playoffs in '98? In '97? Prior to '04, Chargers didn't have a winning season since '95! For all the greatness that's been heaped on Butler, people forget that AJ Smith had to basically dismantle the team that Butler put together. How's that great Marcellus Wiley signing coming along? Where's Alex Molden these days? Carlos Polk? So, Chargers finally have a streak of successive wining seasons after a decade of futility, and that's the evidence that you show of their greatness of rebounding after Ryan Leaf? I notice that you're not addressing the greatness of drafting Rivers when they had a great starting QB already on the roster. You should be concerned that only e-ball came to the defense of your argument.
stuckincincy Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 I don't recall the details why Bobby Ross left the Chargers, but their road to recovery since they hired Kevin Gilbride to replace him has been lengthy. Their Don Coryall teams were pretty spiffy, too.
ricojes Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 What kind of an argument is that? Did the Chargers make the playoffs in '98? In '97? Prior to '04, Chargers didn't have a winning season since '95! For all the greatness that's been heaped on Butler, people forget that AJ Smith had to basically dismantle the team that Butler put together. How's that great Marcellus Wiley signing coming along? Where's Alex Molden these days? Carlos Polk? So, Chargers finally have a streak of successive wining seasons after a decade of futility, and that's the evidence that you show of their greatness of rebounding after Ryan Leaf? I notice that you're not addressing the greatness of drafting Rivers when they had a great starting QB already on the roster. You should be concerned that only e-ball came to the defense of your argument. 511178[/snapback] Never was a big Butler fan, but AJ Smith was a big loss. Marcellus Wiley played well for the Chargers leading to a big contract with Dallas (lol, he was a bust there) and what a luxury with Rivers. They have trade bait or they have time to work with and develop him, great pick.
Sound_n_Fury Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 It matters only that the Bills were wrong, and others were right...I know it sounds harsh, unrealistic, whatever...511168[/snapback] Same reasoning the Germans used when they bombed Pearl Harbor. There are no guarantees in life...luck happens (good and bad). Modrak was considered one of the top personnel guys in the NFL up to now. I guess he's "all hat, no cattle" too, huh?
Peter Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 Yep, it does. Here's what other "experts" had to say about MW and the 2002 draft at the time: Mel Kiper 1st Round Commentary Buchsbaum - PFW Pro Football Weekly PFW Round 1 Recap PFW Round 2 Recap College Football News Draft Recap Great Blue North 2002 Draft Grade Gil Brant 511152[/snapback] In reviewing the first round from that year, there are not too many guys on that list that are as good as each team thought they would be.
Recommended Posts